Losing faith in "faith alone"

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amariselle

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No time now.
Just quick....why Jesus went to the cross is up for debate.

Not according to Scripture it isn’t.

I believe Jesus died for us to free us from sin and death.
This is the grace understanding of salvation.

There is also the penal understanding.
Which one do YOU believe in?
In the early church, the grace theory was accepted.

later.

I’m not sure exactly what distinction you’re trying to make. You’ll need to explain further.

Scripture does in fact say Christ is the “propitiation” for our sins and that God laid on Him the “iniquity” of us all.
 
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112358

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While I am not claiming that one has to attain "Sinless Perfection" in order to be saved, the Bible does in fact teach that you can overcome sin in this life and be perfect.
I read your entire OP and several of the following pages. Unless I'm missing something it seems like you are precisely claiming that one has to attain "Sinless Perfection" in order to be saved. So I'm a bit confused to be honest.

Anyway, I am with you all the way with respect to how God views sin, that we should avoid it all costs, that it leads to death (whatever death you might define), and that it is our enemy. But I stand by my response regarding the hypothetical situation proposed.

Even the GOATs (greatest of all time) in terms of faith were fallible men who committed heinous sins. I maintain that it is our attitude and response to our sin (when we fail to avoid it altogether) that is most important. Think of the difference between Peter and Judas' sin.

Do not misunderstand. We are to avoid sin altogether. It leads to death. It is diametrically opposed to the will of God. That much is clear.
 
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discipler7

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GodsGrace101 said:
Try living a life of sin and disobeying Him, and tell me if you could still be saved.
MATTHEW.5:27-30 =
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Previously, the Jews thought that they would only go to hell if they had committed adultery, murder, blasphemy, etc.
....... By this "new" moral standard of God/Jesus at MATTHEW.5:17-48, all men and women are bound for hell because they have committed adultery in the heart by looking at a woman or man lustfully in the heart = living a life of sin and disobeying Him.

Tell me if Man could still be saved.
 
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zoidar

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MATTHEW.5:27-30 =
Adultery in the Heart
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Previously, the Jews thought that they would only go to hell if they had committed adultery, murder, blasphemy, etc.
....... By this "new" moral standard of God/Jesus at MATTHEW.5:17-48, all men and women are bound for hell because they have committed adultery in the heart by looking at a woman or man lustfully in the heart = living a life of sin and disobeying Him.

Tell me if Man could still be saved.

You do know that Jesus talks about a married woman? I believe he is specifically talking to men that looks at a married women to covet, men that have the desire in the heart to take that woman from the man she is married with. That of course is a sin. And if a married man looks at another woman than his wife with the desire to own her, to leave his wife for her, he is also guilty of adultery in the heart. Of course the other way around also.

Jesus are not asking us to do something that is impossible to do. If every feeling of lust for a woman is a sin, then it would be impossible to keep Jesus commands. And then Jesus couldn't be taken seriously since he says : "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15). Unless you can live without having any lustful feelings for women. Maybe you can? I can't ...
 
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112358

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While I am not claiming that one has to attain "Sinless Perfection" in order to be saved, the Bible does in fact teach that you can overcome sin in this life and be perfect. Please take note that I cannot discuss this topic here at a great length because it would be against forum rules. But you can discuss it in the thread I created a while back on Sinless Perfection in the appropriate section of CF. Please take the necessary time to read my entire lengthy OP before responding. After providing a long list of verses, I also have came up with explanations to several common objections to this particular topic.

Anyways, here is the thread (if you are interested):

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

Please keep in mind that the Bible does have a minimum requirement of living holy. Thinking that we will always commit grievous sin (that leads unto death) in this life is not included in the Process of Sanctification that God has for us. It would be contrary to God's way of thinking and it would mean we would be a slave to sin (never being able to overcome sin because you are slave to it). For Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Meaning, if you currently are sinning, you are slave to it. So to say that we will sin again, is to have the wrong idea about what Jesus means about being a slave to sin (Among many other verses). In my view, Sinless Perfection is dealing more with putting away sins that do not lead unto spiritual death. It is about becoming perfect (as the Bible plainly says). I explain this in the OP of my thread more with Scripture.
Something else I noticed in your thread is your position that baptism for the remission of sins is not a requirement for salvation. I don't understand how one can have a discussion about sinless perfection when they don't even understand how one becomes a Christian in the first place. I believe I have stated my position on that subject clearly on this thread.

And if the forums rules are in question when I make that statement, please note that I refer to a doctrine, a teaching, not to any individual. I hope I will be allowed that clarification.
 
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discipler7

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The point is: To believe in Jesus Christ is the opposite of disobeying Jesus! Conversely, to believe means to OBEY Jesus. Furthermore, the Greek word translated as believeth not in that verse is apeitheo and it means: not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving. This alone makes the crucial point loud and clear about disobedience being a manifestation of unbelief.
Disobedience is not always a manifestation of unbelief. Eg ignorance, foolishness, lack of knowledge, etc can manifest into disobedience, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

Let's look at the disobedience of Eve and Adam at the Garden of Eden ...

1TIMOTHY.2:14 = 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

GENESIS.3:17 = 17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Adam disobeyed God because he heeded the voice of his wife(= because he loved his wife.?), not because of unbelief. Even today, some Christian husbands may disobey God because they heeded the voice of the wife, and vice versa.

As for Eve disobeying God, I think Eve was ignorant of God's commandment to Adam because he did not communicate it to his wife. And so, she was easily deceived by the talking serpent(= Satan in disguise).
....... Likely, Eve disobeyed God because of ignorance and lack of communication, not because of unbelief. Even today, some husbands and wives lack communication.

So, unbelief does not mean disobedience and believe does not mean obey.

In cruel communist North Korea, many obey the government out of fear, not because of their belief in communism.
 
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amariselle

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True. But Scripture says we establish the Law,

"Do we then make void the law through faith?
God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
(Romans 3:31).

And? I agree, "through faith."

15 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:15-16).

Yes, the above is dealing with being "servants" (disciples). Let's look at Romans 6 in its entirety:

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The above verses are quite clearly written to instruct believers who have been saved by the gift of eternal life in how to grow in that grace, as they are no longer "servants of sin". They are dead to sin and are now freely able to "walk in newness of life. (Romans was written to saved believers)

While I could be wrong, it sounded to me like you were lumping all of God's laws into the category of the word "law" that Paul references this word many times in his letters. Most OSAS proponents believe Paul is talking about all law in general when Paul mentions the word "law." I believe Paul is referring primarily to the Old Law and or how we are not saved by Law alone (Apart from God's grace, who is Jesus Christ). I believe Paul says that we have to keep the commands given to us by Jesus Christ as a part of the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace).

Romans 3:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


In many places in the New Testament, I see dire after death consequences to our soul if we end up abiding in unrepentant sin in this life (See Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 25:31-46) (1 John 3:15) (Revelation 22:14).

All those who have "repented" of "dead works" (Hebrews 6:1) and turned to Christ alone to be saved, (John 1:29, John 3:16, John 14:6 Acts 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:11, 2 Corinthians 5:21, 1 Timothy 2:5-6, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Peter 2:24) have passed from death to life, (John 5:24) the wrath of God no longer remains on them (John 3:36), they are born again (John 3:1-21), made new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), and there is no longer any condemnation. (Romans 8:1)

It is true that nobody was ever saved by "Law alone."

Nobody ever has been or ever will be saved by the Law, period. (Romans 3:20-31, Galatians 3, Hebrews 10,Titus 3:3-7 etc.)

We are saved by both God's grace + good works (God's laws).

Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Otherwise, why would Jesus say the following?"

...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Who was Jesus speaking to?
 
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amariselle

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Continued:

There are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


All present tense. Nor does he even once refer to his time as a Pharisee in these verses. He does, however, write of his time as a Pharisee in Philippians 3, and he is clear in those verses that if confidence was to be found "in the flesh", he would have more reason to be confident than anyone. But, he counted it all as "dung" for the sake of knowing Christ and being found in Him.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25

You seem to misunderstand why the Law was given in the first place. It was never given to save, it was only given because of "transgressions" (Galatians 3:19), to "stop our mouths" and show us all that we are guilty before a righteous and Holy God, (Romans 3:19) to be a "school master" to point us to Christ. (Galatians 3:24)

Also, Scripture is clear, the "promise" (the Gospel) was preached to Abraham 430 years before the Law was given through Moses, and the Law does not anul the promise. (Galatians 3)

Indeed, no one ever has been or ever will be saved by the Law, for by the Law is the knowledge (Romans 3:20) and the strength of sin (1 Corinthians 15:56). (This is what Paul is referring to in Romans 7). Grace, however, is not the strength of sin, and it does not condemn. It is for freedom Christ has set us free. (Galatians 5:1)
 
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112358

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As for Eve disobeying God, I think Eve was ignorant of God's commandment to Adam because he did not communicate it to his wife. And so, she was easily deceived by the talking serpent(= Satan in disguise).
....... Likely, Eve disobeyed God because of ignorance and lack of communication, not because of unbelief. Even today, some husbands and wives lack communication.
Eve was quite aware of what the commandment was.
Genesis 3:2 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
 
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amariselle

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No. Salvation is not just about having a belief of the truth (i.e. Jesus Christ - Jhn 14:6). Salvation also includes the Sanctification of the Spirit. For the Bible plainly says so.

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

For...

"...the devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).

This does not mean that the devil's are saved.
For they believe Jesus is the Son of God, too.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. -1 Corinthians 6:11

So, are we "sanctified" by our own works and obedience, or by the "Name of the the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.?"

See, even our sanctification is a work of the Spirit, not of human effort. We can take credit for none of it. All glory, praise and honour to God.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ... - Philippians 1:6

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. - Hebrews 12:2

No. Not becoming a disciple is a salvation issue.

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."
(Matthew 10:37-39) (NIV).

"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" (John 8:31).

"He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (John 8:47).

Discipleship and salvation are not the same thing. Salvation is entirely of God and by His grace and mercy, discipleship is our "reasonable service" and walking in the works we were created unto. One can even be a disciple and not be truly saved (like Judas).

This is simply not true for my walk with God. I do not commit grievous sin every day.

As do we all. The flesh wars against the Spirit, and the flesh is perishing and will not inherit the Kingdom. We will receive new heavenly, incorruptible, imperishable bodies which will inherit the Kingdom.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God"

How can we cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (sin) and perfect holiness in the fear of God if it is not possible?

The "inner man" the Spirit of God in us is entirely without sin. These perishing, earthly bodies are not. And they will either die or be instantly transformed at Christ's return (if we are still living).

1 Peter 4:1-2 says,
1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

It talks about how we can cease from sin in verse 1.
In verse 2 it says we should live the rest of our time (here on this Earth) to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh (sin). How can we live to the will of God and not to the lusts of the flesh (if what you say is true)?

We don't obey the flesh or "sow" to it. We walk in the new life we have as new creatures in Christ. This means that we have complete confidence in Him that He truly did all that is necessary to save us. We no longer live under condemnation and fear, we are set free from bondage. We keep our eyes fixed on Jesus "the Author and Finisher of our faith."

Jesus and His followers do not seem to think that we are still saved if we commit certain grievous sins.

There is not one Scripture that tells anyone that a born again, saved and sealed child of God can lose salvation and be cast into Hell, not one.

Jesus says if we look upon a woman in lust, we are in danger of hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus essentially says if we do not help the poor in this life, we will be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). John says if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no eternal life abides within us (1 John 3:15). Please take note that it only takes one act of hatred towards one's brother to qualify so as to hate one's brother.

And what point do you think Jesus was making during His earthly ministry (before His death, burial and resurrection)?

It was this: people must realize how deep their sin goes and how there is none righteous, not one. All have fallen short of the glory of God, all have sinned in thought, word and deed and all are entirely worthy of the wages of sin; death. With man salvation is not possible, but with God all things are possible.
 
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112358

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There is not one Scripture that tells anyone that a born again, saved and sealed child of God can lose salvation and be cast into Hell, not one.
There are in fact many. Anyone who has become estranged from Christ, who has forsaken their first love, has become apostate, has fallen from grace.
 
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amariselle

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The problem with the Pharisee is that he did not humble himself before God so as to confess of his sin to God like the Tax Collector did. The point of the parable is not that the Pharisee shouldn't have lived holy but that he did not cry out to God to have mercy on his sins to begin with and he was thinking he was better than the Tax Collector (When he did not humble himself before God). He was not humble like the tax collector in confessing his sin to God. Confessing sin to the Lord so as to be forgiven of sin is a practice as told us by the apostle John (See 1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9). However, Jesus does not obviously condemn holy living. That wouldn't make any sense.

Who said anything about God "condemning Holy living"? I didn't.

The point of that parable is that the Pharisee was boasting in his own righteousness, and he even gave credit to God for it. The tax collector on the other hand, knew he had done nothing to deserve salvation and he simply cried out, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner!" That was all that was needed for him to be justified. Period. Not "good works", not obedience of the flesh, not discipleship. Faith, trust, believing that only God could have mercy and save him.

Scripture says,

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

So, what does it mean to "obey" the Son? (Remember "the will of the Father" is simply to believe on the Son.") Well, the very next chapter tells us:

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God...-Hebrews 6:1

The Epistles (which, by the way, were all written to saved believers, Jew and Gentile, really must be read as they were intended, in their entirety. Lest we form an entire doctrine on one single verse. We need to study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the word of God.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

For GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

And why is it that you seem to think the above verse don't apply to saved, born again, justified, sanctified, sealed believers who are new creations in Christ?

On the flip side, there are those believers who are like this:

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

What is it do you think, to "deny" God? Would telling Him that His Son didn't actually do enough to save us qualify?
 
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amariselle

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There are in fact many. Anyone who has become estranged from Christ, who has forsaken their first love, has become apostate, has fallen from grace.

I have given countless verses that are more than clear. Here are a few more:

Ephesians 1:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", which assures us of our inheritance (salvation is not earned, we inherit it) until we are completely redeemed. We have been purchased by the blood of Christ. We are bought at a price and we are not our own.

As for "falling from Grace":

Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.


Did Paul tell these believers that they had lost their salvation and were going to Hell? No, he was chastising them, reminding them that salvation is not by works of the Law, but by faith. He also writes that he has "confidence" in them "through the Lord" that they will no longer heed the words of whoever "troubled" them, and that this person will "bear his (own) judgement" for causing the believers to look to the Law and to the flesh to be saved.
 
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112358

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I have given countless verses that are more than clear. Here are a few more:

Ephesians 1:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We are "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise", which assures us of our inheritance (salvation is not earned, we inherit it) until we are completely redeemed. We have been purchased by the blood of Christ. We are bought at a price and we are not our own.

As for "falling from Grace":

Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.


Did Paul tell these believers that they had lost their salvation and were going to Hell? No, he was chastising them, reminding them that salvation is not by works of the Law, but by faith. He also writes that he has "confidence" in them "through the Lord" that they will no longer heed the words of whoever "troubled" them, and that this person will "bear his (own) judgement" for causing the believers to look to the Law and to the flesh to be saved.
Well, it's the apostle Paul's language. Define another meaning in: "Christ is become of no effect unto you...Ye are fallen from grace."

The chastisement is that they return from their apostasy post haste. They needed to repent. Repent or likewise perish.
 
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discipler7

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Eve was quite aware of what the commandment was.
Genesis 3:2 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Compare GENESIS.3:2 to the actual commandment ...

GENESIS.2:16 = 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

God gave this commandment to Adam, who later communicated it to his wife, Eve[= correction to my previous post]. I think there was a miscommunication between Adam and Eve when "nor shall you touch it" was added to the commandment by Eve, ... or was it added by Adam.?
 
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Paul said that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. James said faith without works is dead. So... if you put them together we have, "faith comes by hearing God and DOING whatever it is He directed us to do." That is faith... it is NOT belief, belief doesn't require hearing God and doesn't always require action... faith does. That is why when you read the great faith chapter, Hebrews 11... it is a list of people hearing God and then doing whatever He said. He told Noah there was going to be a flood and Noah built an ark.. he HEARD and he DID. God told Abraham to move to a new place... Abraham HEARD and then MOVED. The idea that we have to just believe some fact and NOT act or change accordingly is not real faith. So, there are others who see what you are now starting to see.

Be blessed.
Not only that Brother ...Believers were told to endeavor for the faith once delivered to the saints ..this was written to believers so it follows that faith and belief while close , are not synonyms . There are many people who believe many things ...and very zealously , but the history of the church has demonstrated that what was often considered " orthodox belief " did not yield love , meekness , longsuffering , etc.
It is interesting that Samson ( an avowed womanizer , who committed suicide ) and Rahab the harlot were included as those who demonstrated their faith ...and is that not what faith is ...a demonstration of a redeemed life and obedience to God . Through my own experience , I do see it as something which God instigated ..He found me when I was not looking for Him ...thus the grace part ..which is the new birth . When God breaks our heart with His kindness and mercy .
 
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amariselle

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Well, it's the apostle Paul's language. Define another meaning in: "Christ is become of no effect unto you...Ye are fallen from grace."

The chastisement is that they return from their apostasy post haste. They needed to repent. Repent or likewise perish.

Did Paul say “repent or likewise perish” in those verses? Did he tell them they were “apostate” and in danger of being forsaken by God and thrown into Hell?

Or are you adding to what was actually written to these already saved and sealed believers?
 
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