LDS Race and the LDS Priesthood

mmksparbud said:

You are not addressing what was said--the OT scriptures that Jesus studied, believed in and taught, are the same ones that we have today. Nothing missing---why do you dance around this? Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that JS was never needed, would it?

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Every prophet of God was needed. Missing in the Old Testament are the sacred ordinances performed in the temple. Neither are they written in the New Testament because of the sacred nature.

Eloy Craft said:

That speaks to the soul not the Body of Christ.

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The body and the spirit = the soul:
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:7)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He is the way said:

The body and the spirit = the soul:
(Old Testament | Genesis 2:7)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

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Im sorry when I said Body of Christ I meant the Church. Your Scripture reference wasnt about the church.

He is the way said:

Every prophet of God was needed. Missing in the Old Testament are the sacred ordinances performed in the temple. Neither are they written in the New Testament because of the sacred nature.

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Not true, Jesus never even hinted that anything was missing, the scriptures are the same as the ones that were from just after the Babylonian exile. They wrote everything down. Even what went on in the Most Holy Place. God had everything they did written down---nothing was too sacred too not write down except for His name. And God Himself even wrote the 10 commandments---nope---nothing missing there at all since the Babylonian exile. The very same scriptures we use today are the very same scriptures that Jesus used and that all the High Priests used for their ceremonies. JS had nothing from God to say.

Eloy Craft said:

Im sorry when I said Body of Christ I meant the Church. Your Scripture reference wasnt about the church.

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In that case it is for everyone.

mmksparbud said:

Not true, Jesus never even hinted that anything was missing, the scriptures are the same as the ones that were from just after the Babylonian exile. They wrote everything down. Even what went on in the Most Holy Place. God had everything they did written down---nothing was too sacred too not write down except for His name. And G9d Himself even wrote the 10 commandments---nope---nothing missing there at all since the Babylonian exile. The very same scriptures we use today are the very same scriptures that Jesus used and that all the High Priests used for their ceremonies. JS had nothing from God to say.

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Well that's your story:
(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:4)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 2)

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

He is the way said:

God is a just God and makes it possible for all of His children to be baptized by proxy.

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God is a just God, but that has nothing to do with the Mormon reenactment of ancient heretical practices under the guise of 'restoring' something that the Church supposedly lost.

Just as Christ's proxy atonement for our sins makes it possible for us to return to God.

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Because Christ Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross for our sake, Mormons are justified in baptizing dead people, even though that runs directly contrary to the witness of the scriptures and the Church? That does not follow at all.

This sacred ordinance was performed anciently in the house of the Lord in the molten sea.

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No it wasn't. The description provided in 2 Chronicles 4:6 specifically states that it was for the priests to wash themselves in, as Aaron and his sons likewise did in the book of Exodus.

God would not be fair if He did not allow every person to be baptized, even those who didn't have that opportunity while they were alive.

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Seriously? Even though it shouldn't need to be said that God is under no obligation to be 'fair' according to what you or any other person would take that to mean, even if I were to agree to this for the sake of argument, it is still the case that our Lord was more than fair in descending to us from the heavens, being crucified, dying, and being buried, and in that time during the harrowing of hell offering life to those who were in the tombs.

So, nope! There's still no need that anyone be baptized post mortem, which is still a heretical abomination -- again, not because I say so but because the Church itself testifies to this well over a millennia before the Mormon 'restoration' of it.

He is the way said:

Well that's your story:
(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

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What? This has to do with the Transfiguration, which we know about it because is in the Bible, right there in the part that you are quoting, because of course Christ did rise from the dead, at which point this injunction no longer applied.

This has nothing to do with anything being lost. What a bizarre conclusion.

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 2)

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As I had written earlier, looking at things in context helps a lot. Let's look at this in its wider context:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

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As our teacher St. Paul says, he is mentioning this man and the vision he had of paradise as a revelation of the Lord some fourteen years previous, showing that in such a man he will boast, rather than about himself. What in this suggests anything missing?

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

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This is some shockingly bad twisting of scripture on the part of anyone who would take this to mean that things are missing from the scriptures. Lord have mercy.

Here is the entire chapter in question, which anyone who has eyes to see or ears to hear can tell is about not being carnal (in saying "I follow this apostle!", "I follow that one!", as though they are not all doing the same work), and again, is in no way about anything that is missing:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come--all are yours. 23 And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

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People not being able to hear the message they are given because they're busy arguing among themselves over which of the apostles is the best to follow in no way leads to or even implies the conclusion that there was anything missing from the message. If my priest tells me 500 times to fast and pray and I don't listen to him because I'm busy with worldly garbage, does that mean that his message has been lost somehow? No. It's still the same message every time -- it is just lost on me because of my own inability to hear it. He may try to say it in some different way, or to relax the requirements, or become more strict so as to make clear that this is much more serious than I am taking it to be, but in no case is his changing the approach so that I'll hopefully actually listen equivalent to the message being lost. He is preaching the same message throughout, it's just that when people are fools, or otherwise cannot handle what they are given, you don't just say "Nevermind, then". You still have a message to give, so you try to meet them where they are: milk for the babies, meat for the adults.

He is the way said:

Well that's your story:
(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 12:4)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 3:1 - 2)

1 AND I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

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I very clearly stated the OT and you keep on evading!!

God gave those instructions to those who were there---not to anyone else. And He told them not to tell what they had seen on the mountain---until after He was risen. And that is what they did. They did not tell anyone that they had seen Moses and Elijah until after He had risen from the dead and that Jesus had been transfigured before them.
You are using 2 different stories and putting them together as though it is one---it is not. The man that Peter was talking about was at a different time than the transfiguration. Why are you trying to make it seem that it was the disciples on the Mt of transfiguration that saw those things?? Paul clearly states
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The man could not even speak about what he saw in heaven---has nothing to do with anything here on earth.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THE OT HAS NOTHING MISSING FROM WHAT JESUS AND THE DICIPLES HAD AND ALL THE 1ST CHRISTIANS.

Ironhold said:

How many of them were pastors over mostly-white or all-white congregations?

The church was going for 100% integration of the priesthood practically from day one.

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That is why they didn't allow ordinations of black men until 1978?

This is really not funny to me. You are telling me Mormons wanted to ordain black men from "day one" but they didn't until 1978 and it was the fault of everyone else?

dzheremi said:

What? This has to do with the Transfiguration, which we know about it because is in the Bible, right there in the part that you are quoting, because of course Christ did rise from the dead, at which point this injunction no longer applied.

This has nothing to do with anything being lost. What a bizarre conclusion.



As I had written earlier, looking at things in context helps a lot. Let's look at this in its wider context:

1 It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities. 6 For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool; for I will speak the truth. But I refrain, lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.

+++

As our teacher St. Paul says, he is mentioning this man and the vision he had of paradise as a revelation of the Lord some fourteen years previous, showing that in such a man he will boast, rather than about himself. What in this suggests anything missing?



This is some shockingly bad twisting of scripture on the part of anyone who would take this to mean that things are missing from the scriptures. Lord have mercy.

Here is the entire chapter in question, which anyone who has eyes to see or ears to hear can tell is about not being carnal (in saying "I follow this apostle!", "I follow that one!", as though they are not all doing the same work), and again, is in no way about anything that is missing:

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."

21 Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours: 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas, or the world or life or death, or things present or things to come--all are yours. 23 And you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

+++

People not being able to hear the message they are given because they're busy arguing among themselves over which of the apostles is the best to follow in no way leads to or even implies the conclusion that there was anything missing from the message. If my priest tells me 500 times to fast and pray and I don't listen to him because I'm busy with worldly garbage, does that mean that his message has been lost somehow? No. It's still the same message every time -- it is just lost on me because of my own inability to hear it. He may try to say it in some different way, or to relax the requirements, or become more strict so as to make clear that this is much more serious than I am taking it to be, but in no case is his changing the approach so that I'll hopefully actually listen equivalent to the message being lost. He is preaching the same message throughout, it's just that when people are fools, or otherwise cannot handle what they are given, you don't just say "Nevermind, then". You still have a message to give, so you try to meet them where they are: milk for the babies, meat for the adults.

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You should be careful that you do not take good for evil. There is nothing evil about baptism for the dead. It gives the spirits in prison the opportunity to be released.

Thomas Schular said:

That is why they didn't allow ordinations of black men until 1978?

This is really not funny to me. You are telling me Mormons wanted to ordain black men from "day one" but they didn't until 1978 and it was the fault of everyone else?

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In ancient times, the only people who were offered a chance to become the priest were Aaron and his sons. Do you find that unfair also?

mmksparbud said:

I very clearly stated the OT and you keep on evading!!

God gave those instructions to those who were there---not to anyone else. And He told them not to tell what they had seen on the mountain---until after He was risen. And that is what they did. They did not tell anyone that they had seen Moses and Elijah until after He had risen from the dead and that Jesus had been transfigured before them.
You are using 2 different stories and putting them together as though it is one---it is not. The man that Peter was talking about was at a different time than the transfiguration. Why are you trying to make it seem that it was the disciples on the Mt of transfiguration that saw those things?? Paul clearly states
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

The man could not even speak about what he saw in heaven---has nothing to do with anything here on earth.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THE OT HAS NOTHING MISSING FROM WHAT JESUS AND THE DICIPLES HAD AND ALL THE 1ST CHRISTIANS.

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If the Old Testament contained everything necessary for salvation, why do we need the New Testament? Was baptism mentioned in the Old Testament? What about the resurrection? Was that mentioned in the Old Testament?

Marvin Knox said:

"There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."
Proverbs 14:12

The "Mormon" tag on your posts tells me all I need to know concerning whether your doctrine is sound or not.

May the Lord have mercy on all those who misunderstand sound doctrine as do Mormons.

I wish you the best with your religion of choice.

If you'd like to enlighten us more concerning your "I'm LDS and not Mormon in spite of what I have said on my identity tag" mumbo jumbo --- we'd probably all like to know. I for one would read along with you if you want to tells us where you're coming from.

Of course I may have read your intent wrong when you said the following.
Marvin Knox said: ↑
My advice to you and to any Mormon is to examine the simple gospel delivered early on in the Church age.
If you were merely informing us that you find Mormon teaching to be in line with the original scriptures - say so please. Although I don't see how that can be for an intelligent person.

But you can't blame people for not understanding you when you are being purposefully obtuse.

I won't continue much longer in this vague sort of give and take with you.

I would like you to enlighten us though about your beliefs, as I have said.

Anyone can say they love the Lord etc. as you have. Many will say to Him on that day, "Lord, Lord".

The question is whether or not you are in love with the Lord of the scriptures or some other rewritten Lord.

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I was not intending to be vague at all, I'm sorry you feel like I was. I'll try to be very forward in this post to remedy that.

I have examined scripture, especially the NT, in thorough study and prayer. I devote myself to my Savior Jesus Christ. Through all this, I have found them to teaching/confirming in LDS beliefs-- actual LDS beliefs, not the rampant misconceptions out there.

I do not find scripture to be teach Protestantism, though I respect Protestants/their beliefs, and shall not categorically insult them/their faith words like "cult" or insults to intelligence. Flaming is against forum rules and I 100% agree with that wise stance.

He is the way said:

You should be careful that you do not take good for evil. There is nothing evil about baptism for the dead. It gives the spirits in prison the opportunity to be released.

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No. It's plainly heretical and evil, and it's not wrong or a mistake to say so. Again, the early Church itself already made this decision in the 140s by getting rid of Marcion for teaching a bunch of Gnostic, anti-God nonsense. It'll always be wrong, and the fact that Mormons have managed to come up with their own justification for it, abusing the Bible in the process, has no bearing on whether or not the idea itself is acceptable. It's not.

He is the way said:

If the Old Testament contained everything necessary for salvation, why do we need the New Testament? Was baptism mentioned in the Old Testament? What about the resurrection? Was that mentioned in the Old Testament?

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Saying "There's nothing missing from the OT canon" is not the same as saying "The OT canon contains information on everything" or "the OT canon contains everything necessary for salvation". Please don't misrepresent what other people post.

dzheremi said:

Saying "There's nothing missing from the OT canon" is not the same as saying "The OT canon contains information on everything" or "the OT canon contains everything necessary for salvation". Please don't misrepresent what other people post.

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So what about the Forgotten Books of Eden?

He is the way said:

If the Old Testament contained everything necessary for salvation, why do we need the New Testament? Was baptism mentioned in the Old Testament? What about the resurrection? Was that mentioned in the Old Testament?

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That is what it says! The NT were letters, just clarifying. But all that the apostles had and all that every new Christian had was the OT---it was them that testified of Him---And the point is---that they all had the very same OT that we have today. Jesus made no indication that anything at all was missing. And there is nothing even vaguely resembling what JS taught. He was not needed! That is the point. His new--which he said were old -- believes--absolutely did not exist!
Now that He was risen, the whole world could know. He was the fulfillment of Isaiah 53---how did the Maggi know to search for the new King? Through the study of the OT. Every Christian was brought to Christianity through the OT for it was all they had at first. JS was no needed. The NT letters clarified everything that was needed. If Jesus felt there was anything that we needed to know--He would have said so and He did not. He fulfilled everything, and now all that we await is His 2nd coming--which He told about -- along with no marriage in heaven.

He is the way said:

So what about the Forgotten Books of Eden?

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Jesus did not seem to find any need for any other scriptures besides what He had. He taught everything that He felt we needed too know.

He is the way said:

So what about the Forgotten Books of Eden?

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What about the Prophesy of Warren Jeffs ???

I shall send my Spirit upon all who come unto my authorized agent of key position; unto my holy representative of the order of pure Holy Priesthood power, even my servant Warren Jeffs, on earth. Let all now know he is of my whole power of governing, and able to reveal my will to every governing power on the earth; for I lead him unto my way being revealed to all who come unto me in faith and good works.

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http://www.equip.org/article/warren-jeffs-and-his-prophecies-from-prison/