OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

jamesbond007 · Jun 13, 2018

amariselle said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "the Book of Paul". Most of Paul's Epistles were actually written to Gentiles, as he was the "apostle to the Gentiles"[Romans 11:13]. Hebrews is disputed, and many believe it was not written by Paul.

James was most definitely written to saved, believing Jews "the twelve tribes scattered abroad." The diaspora. (James 1:1)

Both Paul and James were writing to already saved believers to encourage them in their faith or to at times correct or even chastise them for not living out their faith as they should. They did not write to tell these already saved believers (Jewish or Gentile) how to be saved or stay saved.

I did not say "good works" aren't required to edify or build up the Church. However, people do not become true members of the Church through "good works" but through being saved, by faith in the Gospel and born again. The Church is made up of true believers. Nor is the true Church sustained on earthly wealth or prosperity. We actually see throughout history, that it is in times of great persecution and struggle that the Church grows all the stronger. The Church is sustained by God, not man.

It does not just "start" with faith, it is always by faith.

Saved unto good works, not by good works.

Yes, and what (or rather, Who) is our "foundation."? How do those verses say that our "good works" save us?

Purgatory is another subject altogether, but it is a view not supported by Scripture. (As purgatory is either a place or a state where sins are "purged". Scripture tells us plainly that Christ alone purged all of our sins on the cross, and that without blood there is no remission of sins. The doctrine of Purgatory denies both of these Biblical truths.)

And Who is that "narrow gate"?

Romans 5:8-21
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I misspoke. Letters of Paul as 1 Corinthians. Paul didn't speak to just Gentiles. He addressed the Jews, too. The Jews brought him to their synagogue/temple in Corinth. He spoke to all at the Temple of Corinth and other temples along his journey. He spoke to Greeks. He spoke to those who just believed in salvation alone and not works. He spoke with the evolutionists of his time, the Epicureans and Stoics, at Mars Hill, the Aeropagus.

His journey is recorded in Acts 18.
CORINTH PAUL - Apostle Paul In Corinth (Acts 18)

Although James addresses the twelve tribes, he also is speaking to us all about faith and how it produces works. Is it enough in the hypothetical case of Richard Dawkins retracting his beliefs and believing in Jesus and being saved to get into heaven? Surely, works in involved and has an effect such as position in heaven (assuming Dawkins gets in).

And you mentioned Romans. It just presents one side of the story. You can't just say that James was addressed to Jews and that there isn't any contradiction. Both are part of Scripture and non-conflicting. Thus, faith + works is important. James spoke of two kinds of faith -- one that leads to good works and one that does not. One is dead and the other alive. "Faith without works is dead." James 2:20

He even used the example of the demons believing in God. "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 19 Clearly, this isn't enough. One produces good works while the other does nothing like it.

Finally, one can die with unconfessed sin. Do you just simply allow them to enter based on what you believe? Where do you stand on this with the narrow gate quotes.

Bobber · Jun 13, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
I am always amazed at the narrow definition of sin that most people seem to have. There are literally thousands of unconfessed sins that you are guilty of at present, of which you are probably totally unaware of.

I believe there's an automatic cleansing when it comes to such things especially if you're totally unaware of them. We also at are different levels of spiritual growth....sometimes later we view certain things for us as sin for the Lord begins to convict us. Not earth shattering sins but just simple things that we begin to see in a new light. [/QUOTE]

bbbbbbb said:
Likewise, ignorance is no excuse in the sight of God.

Yeah I think there is with some of these issues.

bbbbbbb said:
There are people who do not understand that murder is sin and, therefore, murder other folks. They are just as guilty as the murderer who knows that it is sin.

Who doesn't know that murder is sin?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 13, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
I am always amazed at the narrow definition of sin that most people seem to have. There are literally thousands of unconfessed sins that you are guilty of at present, of which you are probably totally unaware of. For example, James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin. There are thousands of good things that I could, and probably ought, to be doing that I am not. Likewise, ignorance is no excuse in the sight of God. There are people who do not understand that murder is sin and, therefore, murder other folks. They are just as guilty as the murderer who knows that it is sin.

The fact is, that every time you go to confession you do not confess every sin you have committed against God - because you are either quite unaware of them or you consider most of them to be too trivial to confess. If you did confess every thought, word, and deed - done or undone - you would probably spend the rest of your life in the confessional.

@jamesbond007 is asking a legitimate question and is also considering catholicism.

What you say above shows that there is not a proper understanding of catholic confession. When the priest absolves one of the confessed sins, he also absolves the person of any unconfessed or forgotten sins. In the Catholic faith only mortal sins must be confessed, and if they are truly forgotten, then they are also forgiven.

I plan to answer @jamesbond007 tomorrow.
Late here...

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

EmSw said:
I did not say you lose your salvation when you sin. It is continual disobedience in sinning. I also mentioned there is forgiveness when we repent.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

No one perishes in this life. It is when we die, and until then He patiently waits for us to repent.

If I may say so, it sounds like salvation is conditional with you.

O, but you did on several occasions. Sin committed either by omission or commission is STILL sin my brother.

When you espouse that we are not saved after we sin whether we do it continually or just once, we still sinned and according to what you are saying......we then have lost our salvation.

I am just showing you the extreme, Other side of the door and the ramifications of what you propose.

I on the other hand believe that when we are TRUELY saved, we will not want to commit KNOW sin. But we will still sin. Then because we are saved, we are forgiven of that sin immediately when we confess of it.

I say again...…..if a person lives in or continues to commit KNOWN sin over and over and over, that person was never saved to begin with.

They can not lose something that they never had my dear brother.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Belief in Jesus and his Redemption is enough to save us. Assuming this is sincere and from the heart.

What if one died in unconfessed sin? We are imperfect humans, so we could be in sin, such as broke one of the ten commandments or other objective moral violations and die. This is where I think the idea of purgatory is a fair one. It doesn't specifically say in 1 Corinthians that the believer goes through fire himself, but if their works is judged then their sins should be judged, too. So how does Jesus resolve one's sins? He would provide a way to cleanse oneself of their sins. Christians do not teach nor believe in purgatory, so we're entering the RCC doctrine which you mention. I'm not sure if that's exactly what I am talking about. Christians believe that if one confesses to God of their sin and asked to be forgiven, then they will. However, if it remains unconfessed, then they are not saved. The idea of a purgatory would give them a way to be saved.

NO SIR. You are leaning toward the Catholic theology.

You do not have to confess sin as a Christian in order to be saved.
You are SAVED and your sins are forgiven that you did yesterday, today and tomorrow!

Purgatory is NOT FAIR, because it does not exist! It is in fact NOT A BIBLE SITUATION at all anf there are NO SCRIPTURES which support it.

Major1 · Jun 13, 2018

amariselle said:
I'm not sure what you mean by "the Book of Paul". Most of Paul's Epistles were actually written to Gentiles, as he was the "apostle to the Gentiles"[Romans 11:13]. Hebrews is disputed, and many believe it was not written by Paul.

James was most definitely written to saved, believing Jews "the twelve tribes scattered abroad." The diaspora. (James 1:1)

Both Paul and James were writing to already saved believers to encourage them in their faith or to at times correct or even chastise them for not living out their faith as they should. They did not write to tell these already saved believers (Jewish or Gentile) how to be saved or stay saved.

I did not say "good works" aren't required to edify or build up the Church. However, people do not become true members of the Church through "good works" but through being saved, by faith in the Gospel and born again. The Church is made up of true believers. Nor is the true Church sustained on earthly wealth or prosperity. We actually see throughout history, that it is in times of great persecution and struggle that the Church grows all the stronger. The Church is sustained by God, not man.

It does not just "start" with faith, it is always by faith.

Saved unto good works, not by good works.

Yes, and what (or rather, Who) is our "foundation."? How do those verses say that our "good works" save us?

Purgatory is another subject altogether, but it is a view not supported by Scripture. (As purgatory is either a place or a state where sins are "purged". Scripture tells us plainly that Christ alone purged all of our sins on the cross, and that without blood there is no remission of sins. The doctrine of Purgatory denies both of these Biblical truths.)

And Who is that "narrow gate"?

Romans 5:8-21
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I love your comments as they are always right on Biblical truths!!!

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Belief in Jesus and his Redemption is enough to save us. Assuming this is sincere and from the heart.

What if one died in unconfessed sin? We are imperfect humans, so we could be in sin, such as broke one of the ten commandments or other objective moral violations and die. This is where I think the idea of purgatory is a fair one. .

The problem with that purgatory ideas is -- it merely "makes stuff up" .

Doctrine is much more solid when not making stuff up. The Bible is the best standard for doctrine.

That way you can have Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2018

At the risk of getting the thread back on the topic of the title and OP.

The OSAS idea does not hold up to the sola-scriptura test of doctrine as we see in these examples. How then does a "sola-scriptura" Christian not drop OSAS like a hot potato?

===================================================

And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Notice the sort of "smack down" that Paul has for some of the unruly saints in Corinth --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure (defeat) for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

EmSw · Jun 13, 2018

Major1 said:
O, but you did on several occasions. Sin committed either by omission or commission is STILL sin my brother.

When you espouse that we are not saved after we sin whether we do it continually or just once, we still sinned and according to what you are saying......we then have lost our salvation.

I am just showing you the extreme, Other side of the door and the ramifications of what you propose.

I on the other hand believe that when we are TRUELY saved, we will not want to commit KNOW sin. But we will still sin. Then because we are saved, we are forgiven of that sin immediately when we confess of it.

I say again...…..if a person lives in or continues to commit KNOWN sin over and over and over, that person was never saved to begin with.

They can not lose something that they never had my dear brother.

Are you truly saved? Let's see from what we are saved.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Why do you keep saying 'when you espouse that we are not saved after we sin'? Yes, there are sins of commission and omission. But, did you know God looks upon the heart? What is His reason for that? Have you ever thought about that?

It's the intention and motivation of the heart that God searches and judges a man.

Psalm 7:9
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Jeremiah 11:20
But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 20:12
But, O Lord of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jesus told us this -

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

All sin has its beginnings in the heart of man. These a man must overcome. That means repentance, that is, turning to God and turning from our sins is not a one-time event, as a lot of people say. Did you know what the sacrifices of God are?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

How does one get a broken and contrite heart?

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

It's by man casting away all his transgressions, thereby making a new heart and a new spirit. James says to purify our hearts.

It is when we purify our hearts and make them new, are we then saved from our sins.

bbbbbbb · Jun 14, 2018

Bobber said:
I believe there's an automatic cleansing when it comes to such things especially if you're totally unaware of them. We also at are different levels of spiritual growth....sometimes later we view certain things for us as sin for the Lord begins to convict us. Not earth shattering sins but just simple things that we begin to see in a new light.

Yeah I think there is with some of these issues.

Who doesn't know that murder is sin?[/QUOTE]

Actually, there are a number of societies in which murdering unborn babies is not considered a sin and is, in fact, held up to be a virtuous act. This view is common not merely in Western society, but also in India and China.

bbbbbbb · Jun 14, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
@jamesbond007 is asking a legitimate question and is also considering catholicism.

What you say above shows that there is not a proper understanding of catholic confession. When the priest absolves one of the confessed sins, he also absolves the person of any unconfessed or forgotten sins. In the Catholic faith only mortal sins must be confessed, and if they are truly forgotten, then they are also forgiven.

I plan to answer @jamesbond007 tomorrow.
Late here...

Not being Catholic, I am not as informed as you are concerning Catholic doctrine.

I do find curious, however, the Catholic Church's list of mortal sins. For example, intentionally missing weekly mass is a mortal sin. By that definition the majority of Catholics in your own country are headed straight to hell.

You might find this interesting, which is from Religion in Italy - Wikipedia

Religious practice, especially church attendance, is still very high in Italy, when compared to the average Western European country.

The Italian National Institute of Statistics (ISTAT) found in 2015 that 29.0% of the population went to church, synagogue, mosque, temple or another house of worship on a weekly basis. The share of practising believers was higher in Southern Italy (33.5%) than the North-West (27.7%), the North-East (26.8%) and the Centre (25.0%). Religious practice was particularly high in Sicily (37.3%); in Campania (35.4%), Calabria (34.8%), Apulia (32.6%) and Molise (30.9%) in the South; in Veneto (32.4%), once dubbed "white Veneto" because of Christian Democracy's strength there (white being the party's official colour), and Trentino (31.4%) in the North-East; in Marche (31.6%) in the Centre. It was particularly low in Liguria (18.6%), Aosta Valley (21.0%), Friuli-Venezia Giulia (21.9%), and Sardinia (21.9%) and the so-called "red regions" (long-time strongholds of the left-wing/centre-left, from the Italian Communist Party to the current Democratic Party), especially Tuscany (19.4%) and Emilia-Romagna (21.6%).

bbbbbbb · Jun 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Are you truly saved? Let's see from what we are saved.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Why do you keep saying 'when you espouse that we are not saved after we sin'? Yes, there are sins of commission and omission. But, did you know God looks upon the heart? What is His reason for that? Have you ever thought about that?

It's the intention and motivation of the heart that God searches and judges a man.

Psalm 7:9
Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

Jeremiah 11:20
But, O Lord of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I revealed my cause.

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 20:12
But, O Lord of hosts, that triest the righteous, and seest the reins and the heart, let me see thy vengeance on them: for unto thee have I opened my cause.

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Jesus told us this -

Matthew 15
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

All sin has its beginnings in the heart of man. These a man must overcome. That means repentance, that is, turning to God and turning from our sins is not a one-time event, as a lot of people say. Did you know what the sacrifices of God are?

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

How does one get a broken and contrite heart?

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

It's by man casting away all his transgressions, thereby making a new heart and a new spirit. James says to purify our hearts.

It is when we purify our hearts and make them new, are we then saved from our sins.

Have you personally purified your own heart to a state of perfection as required by God?

jamesbond007 · Jun 14, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
I am always amazed at the narrow definition of sin that most people seem to have. There are literally thousands of unconfessed sins that you are guilty of at present, of which you are probably totally unaware of. For example, James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin. There are thousands of good things that I could, and probably ought, to be doing that I am not. Likewise, ignorance is no excuse in the sight of God. There are people who do not understand that murder is sin and, therefore, murder other folks. They are just as guilty as the murderer who knows that it is sin.

The fact is, that every time you go to confession you do not confess every sin you have committed against God - because you are either quite unaware of them or you consider most of them to be too trivial to confess. If you did confess every thought, word, and deed - done or undone - you would probably spend the rest of your life in the confessional.

What do you mean "James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin?" Was James referring to works?

So what do you think happens if you die with these thousands of unconfessed sins? Would Jesus call you out on it? Our courts state that ignorance is no excuse. Most of us understand and accept that. You go into the lake of fire and your perfect physical body is burned away. In this case, it seems that a purgatory sentence where you can atone and cleanse your sins is a more fair sentence. Of course, if it was something like murder, then you will end up in the lake of fire.

Christian confession is to God and not like the penance sacrament. I suppose one could plan on asking forgiveness for some felonious crime. However, they may die in an accident before they actually do so during prayer time. The intent was there to confess to God, but they never got a chance to.

At least, you sound like someone who thinks works has an effect on one's place in New Earth (heaven). Am I reading you correctly?

jamesbond007 · Jun 14, 2018

Major1 said:
NO SIR. You are leaning toward the Catholic theology.

You do not have to confess sin as a Christian in order to be saved.
You are SAVED and your sins are forgiven that you did yesterday, today and tomorrow!

Purgatory is NOT FAIR, because it does not exist! It is in fact NOT A BIBLE SITUATION at all anf there are NO SCRIPTURES which support it.

Boy, I have no idea where you get your ideas of repentance. It's not just about confessing our sins, but being repentant for it. We confess and are repentant for our sins, i.e. we vow to change our actions. It in turn becomes a part of good works. This is a good example of how works plays into repentance. Before that, we must acknowledge and take responsibility for our sins and confess. We are remorseful. We vow to change our ways and make restitution. For example, a thief finds Jesus and confesses his crimes and decides to not steal anymore. He vows to return what he has stolen. He atones himself by following through on his vow.

So what if he doesn't confess or does repentance for his crimes because he dies before he is able to?

The Catholic doctrine on the concept of purgatory seems fair to me. Jesus would be like us and want justice being served. I can see it being more fair than going to hell for it.

EmSw · Jun 14, 2018

bbbbbbb said:
Have you personally purified your own heart to a state of perfection as required by God?

Are you jealous?

Did James say 'a state of perfection'? Why did you add those words? Is it your goal to keep your heart of evil?

bbbbbbb · Jun 14, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
What do you mean "James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin?" Was James referring to works?

So what do you think happens if you die with these thousands of unconfessed sins? Would Jesus call you out on it? Our courts state that ignorance is no excuse. Most of us understand and accept that. You go into the lake of fire and your perfect physical body is burned away. In this case, it seems that a purgatory sentence where you can atone and cleanse your sins is a more fair sentence. Of course, if it was something like murder, then you will end up in the lake of fire.

Christian confession is to God and not like the penance sacrament. I suppose one could plan on asking forgiveness for some felonious crime. However, they may die in an accident before they actually do so during prayer time. The intent was there to confess to God, but they never got a chance to.

At least, you sound like someone who thinks works has an effect on one's place in New Earth (heaven). Am I reading you correctly?

Questions, questions, questions. I will attempt to answer them in order.

1. What do you mean "James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin?" James 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. I believe the verse is self-explanatory.

2. Was James referring to works? Absolutely.

3. So what do you think happens if you die with these thousands of unconfessed sins? If you are a Christian for whom Christ has paid the full penalty for your sin, then you go to heaven.

4. Would Jesus call you out on it? No

5. Am I reading you correctly? Mostly. Works do play a significant part in the judgement for Christians, but not in terms of their justification before God. Good works will be rewarded.

bbbbbbb · Jun 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Are you jealous?

Did James say 'a state of perfection'? Why did you add those words? Is it your goal to keep your heart of evil?

Jealous of what? The fact that you are deceived into believing that sinless perfection is the normal state for the Christian? I hardly imagine that that is something of which to be jealous.

James did not say it; Jesus did. Matthew 5:48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Major1 · Jun 14, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
What do you mean "James tells us that if we do not do what is right, then it is sin?" Was James referring to works?

So what do you think happens if you die with these thousands of unconfessed sins? Would Jesus call you out on it? Our courts state that ignorance is no excuse. Most of us understand and accept that. You go into the lake of fire and your perfect physical body is burned away. In this case, it seems that a purgatory sentence where you can atone and cleanse your sins is a more fair sentence. Of course, if it was something like murder, then you will end up in the lake of fire.

Christian confession is to God and not like the penance sacrament. I suppose one could plan on asking forgiveness for some felonious crime. However, they may die in an accident before they actually do so during prayer time. The intent was there to confess to God, but they never got a chance to.

At least, you sound like someone who thinks works has an effect on one's place in New Earth (heaven). Am I reading you correctly?

NO!

James simply gives the explanation of what sin is. WORKS are not in view and James agreed with Paul that salvation is totally by faith and NOT WORKS.

Again, I say to you that according to Scripture, all our sin was paid for when we accepted Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

2 Corinthians 5:21 says...…..
“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

According to Titus 3:5...….when we make that divine exchange at the cross, God chooses to see us as righteous. It is not our righteousness but the righteousness of Christ that God sees.

You are still confusion Catholic teaching with Bible teaching my friend.

According to the Scriptures, you are forgiven of your past sin, todays sin and tomarrow's sin and confession of your sin was done when YOU CONFESSED that Jesus is the Christ.

Major1 · Jun 14, 2018

EmSw said:
Are you jealous?

Did James say 'a state of perfection'? Why did you add those words? Is it your goal to keep your heart of evil?

But you didn't answer the question did you.

Do you believe in "Sinless Perfection"?

Major1 · Jun 14, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Boy, I have no idea where you get your ideas of repentance. It's not just about confessing our sins, but being repentant for it. We confess and are repentant for our sins, i.e. we vow to change our actions. It in turn becomes a part of good works. This is a good example of how works plays into repentance. Before that, we must acknowledge and take responsibility for our sins and confess. We are remorseful. We vow to change our ways and make restitution. For example, a thief finds Jesus and confesses his crimes and decides to not steal anymore. He vows to return what he has stolen. He atones himself by following through on his vow.

So what if he doesn't confess or does repentance for his crimes because he dies before he is able to?

The Catholic doctrine on the concept of purgatory seems fair to me. Jesus would be like us and want justice being served. I can see it being more fair than going to hell for it.

It may sound strange to you my friend, but I get everything I say FROM THE BIBLE.

You see, you are really not trying to make a decision between Catholic and Protestant but rather you are exposing Catholic dogma.

How is a man saved????

Romans 10:9...…….
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Now where in that passage does it say "WE VOW TO CAHANGE OUR WAYS".
Now where in that passage does it say "WE MUST MAKE RESTITUTION"?

Those are all works my friend. They are things that we do, but again, what does the Bible say in Ephesians 2:8-9...…….
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".

YOU see, you are saying things that are not there and asking ME where I get my ideas.

Now again for the 2nd or maybe the 3rd time, "THERE IS NO SUCH THING OR PLACE OR THOUGHT AS PUGATORY IN THE BIBLE".

Now, please do not take my word for this as you have already questioned where I get my ideas from YOU DO THE WORK and you will find what most of us already know and that is that PUGATORY originated with Greek and pagan philosophy, in particular Plato, and was introduced into the church through Origen in the 3rd Century, who is considered a heretic by the Roman Catholic Church. In addition, the teaching of purgatory is contradictory to Scripture for it undermines its clear teaching of the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and is not taught in the Old and New Testaments.

Purgatory was used in conjunction with selling "indulgences" to help put money into the Catholic Church.

An "indulgence" is the idea that by contributing some money to the Roman Catholic Church, you could "indulge" in a certain sin and not have to worry about the punishment for that sin.

In conjunction with purgatory, parishioners were assuming that something divine was taking place when they gave the church money to have their loved ones released from that imaginary place. By giving their money, they would also have their own time reduced. I didn't know that the pope and priests had the keys to death and hell.

If you want to believe in Catholic dogma which comes from un-Biblical sources
and unsubstantiated oral traditions…….please go right ahead.

Let me give you the perfect REAL LIFE example. In 1968, in Vietnam, while sitting behind a wall with several men, I presented the gospel to several men.
We were in combat. One of those men accepted Jesus Christ and said the sinners prayer. He according to the Bible was saved.

He never had the time to read the Bible. He did not know the commands of God.
He simply knew he was sinner and he asked Jesus to forgive him of his sins.
In the next few seconds, a hand grenade landed where we were sitting. This man was killed instantly.

He did NO good works. He did not repentance as there was no time to do so.
He did NO Penance.

Did He go to heaven in your theology?????

Did the thief on the cross go to heaven that day?
Did Jesus lie to him.
Did they take him down and allow him to do some good works and then put him back on the cross????

Do you see what your theology open the door for?

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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