Losing faith in "faith alone"

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discipler7

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1 Peter 3:21 "21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
MATTHEW.3:11 = 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Whenever baptism is mentioned together with Jesus Christ, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not water baptism because the Lord Jesus Christ only baptizes His people with the Holy Spirit and fire. He does not baptize His people with water. John the Baptist and pastors/deacons baptized people with water.

Water baptism is the outward sign or symbol of repentance of sins. Water is used to clean stuffs = symbolic of sins/evil-deeds being cleansed.
 
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amariselle

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To believe in someone, what does that mean? Does it mean that we believe a fact? No, it means we believe in that person, in what he says. And if we believe in what he says, then we do what he says. If my dad tells me the iron is hot, you will burn yourself if you touch it. If I believe him I don't touch it, I think it's the same with the word faith, it comes with action.

We cannot mix grace and works. Our obedience does not save us or keep us saved. Again, we are saved by the obedience of One. After we are saved, we do grow in His grace through the "milk" of the word and in Spiritual maturity. This is a lifelong process, however, that doesn't look the same for everyone. Salvation is of God and by the grace and mercy of God, it is not something we earn or deserve.
 
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redleghunter

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It also means to wash or to dip or several other things that make the word descriptive of most of the modes of baptizing that Baptistic people usually condemn as unbiblical.
I agree. I think in the NT it had a lot to do with the water available. We see in John 3:23 the Baptist move to where there was plenty of water. But in Acts 8:36 it says they came to some water.

What clinches it for me on full immersion is Romans 6:4

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Go down in the water holding your breath (symbolizes death), rising out of the water taking a deep breath (symbolizes rising).
 
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redleghunter

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What do you think @redleghunter? Does the Bible teach that infants should be baptized?
The Bible teaches everyone who comes to Christ as a repentant sinner in need of the Grace of God gets baptized.
 
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discipler7

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So far on this lengthy thread, some have commented that works (of the Law), water baptism and Holy Communion are also necessary/required for salvation, ie besides or in addition to faith/believe/trust in Jesus Christ.

Pity those who could do no works(eg fully-paralyzed), could not be water-baptized(eg live in the desert) or could not partake of the Holy Communion in Church(eg social anxiety sufferers), ie they cannot be saved.
 
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zoidar

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I already did. One cannot say (rightly) that people are not saved by works, then turn around and say people don't stay saved without works, and somehow deny that this is "works-based" salvation. To claim that works do not get you saved but that they do keep you saved, is to claim that works are indeed necessary for salvation. In which case, Scripture would be incorrect in telling us plainly that salvation is not of works.

You CAN´T be saved by works without faith and you CAN´T be saved by faith without works. Both are necessary. How is it work-based salvation when it's the Holy Spirit that enables you to live faithfully? Without faith it's impossible to obey the commands of Jesus.

Do you believe that we are to do the things Jesus tells us to do? Or do you believe that Jesus tells us to do something that is impossible to do?

I'm glad, but those works do not keep you saved, they are simply your "reasonable service" as a forgiven disciple.

So I was still saved the time when I went back to Buddhism?

I would argue that someone who is looking, even partially, to their "flesh" to be saved, is not living fully in the Spirit. The "inner man" is without sin, the flesh is not, it is carnal "sold under sin."

I hope you are not referring to Rom 7 where Paul talks about his state as a jew before he was saved?

Churches of Christ in Christian Union

Thanks for the link!
 
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amariselle

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So far on this lengthy thread, some have commented that works (of the Law), water baptism and Holy Communion are also necessary/required for salvation, ie besides or in addition to faith/believe/trust in Jesus Christ.

Pity those who could do no works(eg fully-paralyzed), could not be water-baptized(eg live in the desert) or could not partake of the Holy Communion in Church(eg social anxiety sufferers).

This actually hits home for me. I have an anxiety disorder, that I have struggled with all of my life and I have been on medication for the last 10 years. I often have severe panic attacks when I go to the front of the church building, and so, sometimes this has hindered me from taking communion. In the eyes of some I would have lost my salvation long ago.

Thankfully my salvation is secure in Christ and not in my weak and sinful flesh.
 
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redleghunter

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I raised the Catholic Church’s teaching on baptism as the requested example of tradition in my discussion with @redleghunter from the outset. You chose to inject yourself into the discussion that we were having. If you do not like the topic, feel free to withdraw yourself from the discussion.
Yes the question was if you could produce where there were unwritten traditions not found in the writings of the apostles. Baptism is a bad example as the Bible addresses those who heard and believed were baptized. That's an established tradition right there in the NT.

Now how certain churches do it or did it is a different matter as you don't immerse your babies three times in a small bullet shaped baptismal as the Eastern Orthodox do, or for adults immerse them 3 times for the Trinity. The Romans don't do that.

I also pointed out in the Didache a very early extra Biblical tradition they speak of water temperature and quality. They also have those to be baptized fast for two days before baptism. Have you ever heard an infant refused the paps of a mother for two whole days (fasting) before baptism? No parents would get sleep and quite unhealthy for the child. Don't think so, as the RCC does not follow this early tradition with babies.

Based on the above your tradition came much later probably 150 years later and developed from there as fasting was something the early post apostolic church practiced.
 
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zoidar

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Pity those who could do no works(eg fully-paralyzed), could not be water-baptized(eg live in the desert) or could not partake of the Holy Communion in Church(eg social anxiety sufferers), ie they cannot be saved.

Do you think works is just about doing? Work can be anything that has to do with to serve God or your neighbour. It can be about saying and not saying, praying, listening, thanking, reading, giving etc.
 
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amariselle

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You CAN´T be saved by works without faith and you CAN´T be saved by faith without works. Both are necessary. How is it work-based salvation when it's the Holy Spirit that enables you to live faithfully? Without faith it's impossible to obey the commands of Jesus.

For salvation, only faith in what Christ has done is necessary. For discipleship, works of obedience are necessary.

Do you believe that we are to do the things Jesus tells us to do?

Yes, as I have said numerous times, as disciples, not to be saved. We are saved unto good works, not by them.

Or do you believe that Jesus tells us to do something that is impossible to do?

It was Jesus Himself who noted (of Peter) that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is not impossible to be a disciple of Christ, but if our "good works" are necessary to be saved, then they need to be 100% perfect.

So I was still saved the time when I went back to Buddhism?

It is indeed possible for saved believers to fall into error. Again, consider the Corinthian church.

I hope you are not referring to Rom 7 where Paul talks about his state as a jew before he was saved?

Paul was not writing of his time as a Pharisee in those verses. He was writing in the present tense, as a saved believer, of the flesh warring against the Spirit. He speaks of his time as a Pharisee in Philippians 3:4-11.

Thanks for the link!

You're welcome. :)
 
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zoidar

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I would argue that someone who is looking, even partially, to their "flesh" to be saved, is not living fully in the Spirit. The "inner man" is without sin, the flesh is not, it is carnal "sold under sin."

Do you know what it means to look in the flesh to be saved?

It would mean that you do these things to be saved:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these (Gal 5:19-21)

That is the deeds of the flesh. Do you you think serving God out of good works is out of flesh?
 
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amariselle

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Do you know what it means to look in the flesh to be saved?

It would mean that you do these things to be saved:

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these (Gal 5:19-21)

That is the deeds of the flesh. Do you you think serving God out of good works is out of flesh?

No, looking to oneself to be saved or adding to our salvation (which is to add to Christ's finished work) is to look to the "flesh" to save us. And you're right, the flesh is all of those wicked things, which is precisely why we cannot be righteous and good enough to save ourselves, no matter how many "good works" we do. If it were possible to save ourselves, we would have no need for our Saviour, Jesus Christ.
 
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zoidar

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It was Jesus Himself who noted (of Peter) that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is not impossible to be a disciple of Christ, but if our "good works" are necessary to be saved, then they need to be 100% perfect.

And yet we will be judged through our deeds...

Matt 25

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


It is indeed possible for saved believers to fall into error. Again, consider the Corinthian church.

We sure believe differently about this. I'm certain that you can lose salvation. But I'm pretty sure that I can't convince you.

Paul was not writing of his time as a Pharisee in those verses. He was writing in the present tense, as a saved believer, of the flesh warring against the Spirit. He speaks of his time as a Pharisee in Philippians 3:4-11.

Yes he wrote in present tense, but if you read Rom 7 and 8 carefully you see that he is talking about how he was a slave to sin, but through Christ got set free.

Do you really think Paul would say he IS sold under the bondage of sin in his saved state?

"For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want"

That is not a description of a saved man.
 
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Albion

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I agree. I think in the NT it had a lot to do with the water available. We see in John 3:23 the Baptist move to where there was plenty of water. But in Acts 8:36 it says they came to some water.
Yes, but I have to point out that the much water does not mean deep water. The area may have been one of several that were known for having many shallow pools of water. But the bottom line on this is that no one really knows the location that was referred to. There are a number of contenders and a lot of guesses.

What clinches it for me on full immersion is Romans 6:4

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
OK, but that wouldn't cinch anything for me because that is a weak hint. We know from other verses in Scripture that to be baptized at all is to be symbolically buried with him.

Go down in the water holding your breath (symbolizes death), rising out of the water taking a deep breath (symbolizes rising).
And all of that can be done without going totally under the water. It makes just as much sense to go up to your neck or shoulders or chest and feel the experience of being baptized in the river as Jesus himself was. But if one wants to be triple immersed, for example, that is a powerful symbol, I agree. Its just a question of whether this is required.
 
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amariselle

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We sure believe differently about this. I'm certain that you can lose salvation. But I'm pretty sure that I can't convince you.

No, I won't go back to believing that I was constantly lost, over and over again. I have cried enough tears of despair over fearing that I had failed God one too many times, and perhaps He would not take me back again. At times I almost felt like I was loosing my mind due to the terror I felt believing that God's wrath must surely still abide on me due to my sinful, weak "flesh."

Now I understand (all praise and glory to God) that I am saved not because of what I do, but because of what He has done. His is the perfect, sinless sacrifice that I cannot offer. I rest in Him and I know He is my Great High Priest and Mediator who "everliveth" to make intercession for me. So, I know I can come "boldly before the throne of grace", where I will find help when I need it.

Yes he wrote in present tense, but if you read Rom 7 and 8 carefully you see that he is talking about how he was a slave to sin, but through Christ got set free.

No, if you read carefully, you can see that he makes an absolute distinction between the "flesh" (which is perishing by the way) and the Spirit. The two are at odds with each other, and Paul absolutely knew that.
 
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112358

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So far on this lengthy thread, some have commented that works (of the Law), water baptism and Holy Communion are also necessary/required for salvation, ie besides or in addition to faith/believe/trust in Jesus Christ.

Pity those who could do no works(eg fully-paralyzed), could not be water-baptized(eg live in the desert) or could not partake of the Holy Communion in Church(eg social anxiety sufferers), ie they cannot be saved.
I believe the spirit of the post calls to attention those of limited faculties, either mental or physical, that prevent them from submitting to the commands of God's Word. Those people are eternally secure. Children who die are a good example.

I'm not sure who said works of the Law are in the picture, but they aren't. I have only attempted to discuss that which the Bible states about these things, nothing more nothing less.

This planet is covered 71% by water. If an able bodied person can't find enough with which to be baptized or to help get their physically unable bodied friends into, I'll leave that between them and their Maker. I'm just saying what the Bible says about it.

Regarding communion, while it is the primary purpose for the assembly of the church body, you don't have to be "at church" to do it, and you sure don't have to have an RC "priest" do it for you.
 
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amariselle

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And yet we will be judged through our deeds...

Matt 25

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


Notice He separates the "sheep" from the "goats" before making any pronouncement. Jesus knows who are His. He knows who have truly and completely trusted in Him for salvation.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Exactly. The Kingdom is an inheritance, not something we earn. It has been prepared for us, from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

And? Jesus commends His sheep for their "good works". Also, notice that they didn't even realize they had done them unto Him. Certainly they were not looking to their "good works" to be saved.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Remember, Jesus knows who are His. He separated the "sheep" and the "goats" without making any prior judgement or pronouncement.

Do you really think Paul would say he IS sold under the bondage of sin in his saved state?

Yes, and he did. Paul understood that in his flesh dwelt "no good thing."

"For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want"
That is not a description of a saved man.

Then perhaps you believe Paul was saying he was not truly saved. I happen to believe he rightly understood the battle between the "inner man" and the "flesh."
 
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zoidar

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No, I won't go back to believing that I was constantly lost, over and over again. I have cried enough tears of despair over fearing that I had failed God one too many times, and perhaps He would not take me back again. At times I almost felt like I was loosing my mind due to the terror I felt believing that God's wrath must surely still abide on me due to my sinful, weak "flesh."

Now I understand (all praise and glory to God) that I am saved not because of what I do, but because of what He has done. His is the perfect, sinless sacrifice that I cannot offer. I rest in Him and I know He is my Great High Priest and Mediator who "everliveth" to make intercession for me. So, I know I can come "boldly before the throne of grace", where I will find help when I need it.

I'm very sorry you have gone through such hard times... I understand why you hold your position. I just tell you how I see it. I don't think we have to be perfect in obedience, I think we are allowed to fail, as long as we ask God for forgiveness and turn back to him. Part of being obedient is the part of turning to him for forgiveness when we fail, and also go back to walking in obedience. If we struggle with sin, it's just how it is. We are to pray to be set free, for as Christians we are not meant to be living under sin.
 
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