Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
So you are one of the 144,000? That tells me you are a virgin.....correct?

Paul described Christians as "firstfruits", and as a "virgin".

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Douggg said:
It is just saying that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes, are the first of the Jews to be saved, heading into the Day of the Lord.

Since most of the 12 tribes no longer exist as a pure bloodline and there are exactly 12,000 from each tribe, it should be obvious that the 144,000 are being used in a symbolic manner in the Book of Revelation. Paul described Christians as "firstfruits" in Romans 16:5, and as "virgins" in 2 Corinthians 11:2.

Finding 144,000 pure blood Israelites today is about the same possibility as going out in the forest and finding a live woolly mammoth.

Some of us must think the Two Witnesses found in Revelation chapter 11 are two men made of wood and metal.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

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Douggg · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Since most of the 12 tribes no longer exist as a pure bloodline and there are exactly 12,000 from each tribe, it should be obvious that the 144,000 are being used in a symbolic manner in the Book of Revelation. Paul described Christians as "firstfruits" in Romans 16:5, and as "virgins" in 2 Corinthians 11:2.

Finding 144,000 pure blood Israelites today is about the same possibility as going out in the forest and finding a live woolly mammoth.

Some of us must think the Two Witnesses found in Revelation chapter 11 are two men made of wood and metal.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

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You are in denial. It does not say 144,000 of "pure bloodline". It is amazing to hear the gyrations you guys come up with to deny that Israel over there is fulfillment of bible prophecy - in order to cling to your failed theology that the church is Israel.

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Douggg said:
It is amazing to hear the gyrations you guys come up with to deny that Israel over there is fulfillment of bible prophecy - in order to cling to your failed theology that the church is Israel.

If you think the Church is not Israel you have cut Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6,8, and Romans 11:1, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Galatians 6:15-16, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, out of your Bible.

The truth of the New Covenant is found below.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

You have become a New Covenant denier in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

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Choose Wisely · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
If you think the Church is not Israel you have cut Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6,8, and Romans 11:1, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Galatians 6:15-16, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, out of your Bible.

The truth of the New Covenant is found below.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

You have become a New Covenant denier in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

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Kind of messed everything up for you and yours when Israel showed up after almost 2000 years. All this twisting of scripture to force those square pegs into round holes and then God goes and does exactly what He said He would do and the nation of Israel is born. In case you don't know......God is going to regraft Israel back to the olive tree. It's time for you to put aside your bias and recognize the truth so you can come to understand the NEW COVENANT.

TribulationSigns · Jun 13, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
So you are one of the 144,000?

Yes!

That tells me you are a virgin.....correct?

Click to expand...

Yes, I am virgin IN CHRIST.

And which of the 12 tribes are you from?

Click to expand...

You do not get it. God is not interested in 12 physical tribes of Israel that He need to have His people to know which tribe they are from.

No, Revelation 14 speaks of this Chosen people, these Children of God, this Israel of God. They alone sing the new song, and none but these can learn it. It is none but the Chosen of God who are the ones Revelation says were redeemed from the earth. By the New Covenant Redeemer, who is Christ!

Luke 1:68

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,"

Matthew 1:21

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

Hebrews 9:15

"And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

The First Covenant with who? Israel of course, and the New Covenant of this redemption is likewise with Israel. All in Christ, are that Israel redeemed from their sins by this mediator of the New Covenant.

Likewise, these are they which are undefiled by women. Revelation is again using symbolic language to signify that these are virgins, who have not fornicated (spiritually) with the great harlot. Just as in the parable of the 10 virgins of Matthew 25. And we are the only ones who follow the lamb (Christ) wherever He goes. It is the Church which is the only firstfruits unto God. There cannot be two firstfruits. Christ is "thee" firstfruit, and we (the body of Christ) are His firstfruits, in Him. Likewise, only those redeemed by the blood of the Lamb can be spoken of as "in their mouth is no guile," and only the Church is without fault before God! All these things spoken about these 144,000 who are sealed, apply to the body of Christ alone. No one "but" those in Christ qualify, and additionally, all those in Christ qualify.

1st Corinthians 1:7-8

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Blamelss = Virgin! In order to be blameless, these sealed must be those who are in Christ! Like many people, you are dreaming about vain genealogies notwithstanding, Christ is not divided!

Galatians 3:28

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

And so where is the mystery about this 144,000 redeemed from the earth? The 12 tribes of Israel here are a synonym for the Children of God, or the Church, just as the 12 Apostles represented the Children of God or the Church. Redemption comes only by the cross, and all those redeemed by the cross are one body, called CHRISTians. Not Two! They have one head, which is Christ! These 12,000 of each tribe, 144,000 strong, are only a symbolic for the Israel of God redeemed by the cross from all tribes or families. This is confirmed in Revelation chapter 22:

Revelation 22:3-4

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and His name shall be in their foreheads."

Again, where is the mystery? These are the SAME 144,000 with the name of God in their foreheads as well represent the fullness of the Israel of God. It is ALL those in Christ (Israel). In order for there to be a sealing from "all the tribes of the Children of Israel," this has to be understood spiritually. Not physical! For there can be no question but that the Church is the sons of God, the seed of Abraham, the Chosen people, the Elect, the special or peculiar people, the Holy nation, the kingdom of Priests, and the branches of the Olive Tree, right along with the Jews! I have told you here many times! They are part of this New Covenant with Israel in Christ, just as physical Jewish people are!

Sadly, there are many people, like you, who are as blind as the Old testament jews who are looking for physical genealogies, physical kingdom, physical 144,000 men, etc. They totally don't get it because they lack spiritual discernment on what Christ talked about! Nothing new under the sun!

Selah!

TribulationSigns · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You have become a New Covenant denier in order to make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

The false gospel of Dispensationalism didn't exist in the early Church. In fact this eschatology of the kingdom is a relatively recent phenomenon, and only increased in the days of John Darby, and later the Scofield reference Bible help spread it across the earth. Chiliasm is not Dispensationalism. The early Church taught the truth under guidance of the Apostle Paul, Peter, Timothy, etc. Therefore it is impossible that it taught Chiliasm, Premillennialism or any of the diverse flavors of Dispensationalism. Because none of these doctrines of the Kingdom are the truth. The Judaic Religion, it's off-shoot Chiliasm, and later Premillennialism are all different versions of the very same religious program.

There are people like Quasar, Dougg, etc. who insisted that the doctrine of premillennialism is most popular or widely supported by MOST Christians. The truth is the consensus is no test of the truth. For "most" will not have the truth, and "most" will always be looking for the easy route. Being part of "most" is not hallmark of truth. All throughout biblical history it has been demonstrated that consensus is "NOT" the test of bread nor of faithfulness! Period! For it has never been the many that are faithful, but the few.

Matthew 7:21-24

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:"

The many "professing" Christians will be protesting, Lord Lord, and will be told by Christ that He never knew them. Why? Clearly it is because they were talkers and not doers. They claimed they were Christian, but their works of disobedience revealed that they were not. For example, the doctrine MATTERS! You can't say you are a Christian, and then say some were saved by their works, or that God is a respecter of persons, or that Jews are God's people despite the fact they reject His anointed, Christ. This simply cannot be the gospel of Christ. A tree is known by its fruits. Dispensationalism is not from the gospel Tree in any way, shape or form! Denying this for the sake of appeasement or (alleged) unity is not profitable.

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Kind of messed everything up for you and yours when Israel showed up after almost 2000 years. All this twisting of scripture to force those square pegs into round holes and then God goes and does exactly what He said He would do and the nation of Israel is born.

You do not seem to know the difference between the Lord God who created the universe and Lord Rothschild, whose family created the modern State of Israel.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

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Hiscosmicgoldfish3 · Jun 13, 2018

Davy said:
Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO

I think perhaps YES.. (Luke 21)

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I think there might be a final 3 1/2 year tribulation, as I don't really agree that the final 3 1/2 years (half a week) of Daniel was fulfilled by the stoning of Steven (seems like a week argument to me).
Worthy to escape the day of the Lord, described in 36. seems to be describing the secret rapture - not the same part of the prophesy regarding the 70 AD part.
Not all of the 70 weeks was fulfilled at the time of Christ - seems to need the coming of the kingdom for all to be fulfilled.

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 said:
Not all of the 70 weeks was fulfilled at the time of Christ - seems to need the coming of the kingdom for all to be fulfilled.

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (From Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

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seventysevens · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (From Jeremiah 31:31-34)
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
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"Those days " are not over - it means AFTER those days are past -but you refuse to accept truth
still cherry picking scripture to fit your beliefs

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

seventysevens said:
"Those days " are not over - it means AFTER those days are past -but you refuse to accept truth
still cherry picking scripture to fit your beliefs

In the NKJV the Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters.
Notice that the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

The last verse in the passage makes it clear that this was fulfilled when it was written, during the first century.

.................................................
Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

seventysevens · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
In the NKJV the Old Testament text is in Uppercase letters.
Notice that the author of the Book of Hebrews quotes from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

The last verse in the passage makes it clear that this was fulfilled when it was written, during the first century.

.................................................
Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

What you do not understand is that Jeremiah 31 is about AFTER Jesus has returned and the Messianic time has come - At THAT time Jesus will write on the hearts of them that Jesus IS LORD and it will NO LONGER be preached because they KNOW IT - Jesus has not yet come - bias has blinded your understanding because you think it has already past when it is not

People can quote prophecy today , but doing so does not make it happen

Davy · Jun 13, 2018

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 said:
I think perhaps YES.. (Luke 21)

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I think there might be a final 3 1/2 year tribulation, as I don't really agree that the final 3 1/2 years (half a week) of Daniel was fulfilled by the stoning of Steven (seems like a week argument to me).
Worthy to escape the day of the Lord, described in 36. seems to be describing the secret rapture - not the same part of the prophesy regarding the 70 AD part.
Not all of the 70 weeks was fulfilled at the time of Christ - seems to need the coming of the kingdom for all to be fulfilled.

It is error to try and undo what our Lord Jesus already foretold us will occur in that time. Luke 21 does not stand on its own. The other versions of what He told His disciples there while on the Mount of Olives is in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. So those other versions must be put together in study with Luke 21. Each version gives some different info.

In the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions, the order of His return and gathering of the Church is emphatic, after the tribulation like He said. That also is the order Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2.

So our Lord Jesus must have been speaking of another type idea concerning escaping those things. Afterall, He told them when they 'see' those things, to know that the kingdom of God is at hand. So how would they 'see' those events He warned of if they were physically gone?

Pre-trib makes a huge error about the future tribulation, treating it as a time of all out chaos, war, storms and earthquakes, etc. God's Word showed it's actually going to be a time of world peace when the Antichrist shows up. And using that peace he will destroy many souls. So the temptation to escape is not going to be a physical one, but a spiritual one, refusing to bow to that coming Antichrist as God, and refusing His mark.

That is why Jesus said this in Luke 17, where the left-behind idea is twisted by the pre-trib school:

Luke 17:33-34
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
KJV

Whosoever seeks to save his life shall lose it. How's that? The coming tribulation causing physical death to our flesh is what we are NOT to be concerned about. It's spiritual worship to the wrong Jesus that we are to be concerned about during the tribulation. And if we have to lose... our life (flesh death) to preserve it (our soul), and remain in the Faith on Jesus Christ, then that... is what we are to do.

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 · Jun 13, 2018

Davy said:
Pre-trib makes a huge error about the future tribulation, treating it as a time of all out chaos, war, storms and earthquakes, etc. God's Word showed it's actually going to be a time of world peace when the Antichrist shows up. And using that peace he will destroy many souls. So the temptation to escape is not going to be a physical one, but a spiritual one, refusing to bow to that coming Antichrist as God, and refusing His mark.

I think perhaps there isn't enough evidence to make a decision one way or 'tother.

seventysevens · Jun 13, 2018

Davy said:
It is error to try and undo what our Lord Jesus already foretold us will occur in that time. Luke 21 does not stand on its own. The other versions of what He told His disciples there while on the Mount of Olives is in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. So those other versions must be put together in study with Luke 21. Each version gives some different info.

In the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions, the order of His return and gathering of the Church is emphatic, after the tribulation like He said. That also is the order Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thessalonians 2.

So our Lord Jesus must have been speaking of another type idea concerning escaping those things. Afterall, He told them when they 'see' those things, to know that the kingdom of God is at hand. So how would they 'see' those events He warned of if they were physically gone?

Pre-trib makes a huge error about the future tribulation, treating it as a time of all out chaos, war, storms and earthquakes, etc. God's Word showed it's actually going to be a time of world peace when the Antichrist shows up. And using that peace he will destroy many souls. So the temptation to escape is not going to be a physical one, but a spiritual one, refusing to bow to that coming Antichrist as God, and refusing His mark.

That is why Jesus said this in Luke 17, where the left-behind idea is twisted by the pre-trib school:

Luke 17:33-34
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
KJV

Whosoever seeks to save his life shall lose it. How's that? The coming tribulation causing physical death to our flesh is what we are NOT to be concerned about. It's spiritual worship to the wrong Jesus that we are to be concerned about during the tribulation. And if we have to lose... our life (flesh death) to preserve it (our soul), and remain in the Faith on Jesus Christ, then that... is what we are to do.

I challenge you to provide what scripture you have that show WHY the Great tribulation will happen and How Jesus knew so much about it that he gave such detail describing it

and not something lame like he is God and knows everything as we all know that already - he spoke of it for a specific reason

Sound Doctrine · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Sometimes it is extremely difficult to address every point or scriptural reference in a post.
You should not expect any of us to address each point for you, in every post.

Let us go back to Daniel chapter 9.

The New Covenant had already been promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, before the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel.

Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the passage.
We find that verse fulfilled by Christ during the first century in the text below.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (From the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant and then Gabriel did not even mention the New Covenant?

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.
That would mean the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

The same interpretation is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

There is no singular antecedent for an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9, and there was no "gap" of time mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Christ was "cut off" after the 69th week.
If I agree to paint your house after 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or later.

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The new covenant is in addition to the Abrahamic Covenant, not a replacement of it. God does not break covenants. Those individuals who break God's covenants are cut off because they broke them. The covenants continue in force until fulfilled. The Abrahamic Covenant still has 1 week of years to go to be fulfilled, and that after the pre tribulation rapture. As for the video, again, to be honest, I did not watch it because the guy in the video is not God.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 13, 2018

Davy said:
Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO

I agree.

Everything you wanted to know about the spider web doctrine of dispensationalism but were afraid to ask..and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. .............

Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema – Grace Online Library

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its most widely known aspect. Popularized by such best-selling books as Hal Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth, the film The Return, and bumper stickers warning others that in the event of the rapture the vehicle will be without driver and possibly passengers — Dispensationalism has enjoyed a large following among conservative Christians, especially in North America.

The view that has predominated in Dispensationalism is known as pre-tribulational rapturism. As noted previously, the older classical version of Dispensationalism held that the first phase of Christ’s return, his ‘coming’ or ‘parousia’, would precede a seven-year period of tribulation, and that the second phase of Christ’s return, his ‘revelation’ or ‘appearing’, would introduce the millennium or one-thousand-year reign of Christ on the earth.
The first phase, Christ’s coming, is the rapture1 of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, an event that represents Christ’s coming ‘for’ his saints in contrast to his subsequent return (the second phase) or coming ‘with’ the saints. Though this view has been somewhat modified in more recent Dispensationalism, it remains far and away the most popular view among dispensationalists to this day. The views known as mid-tribulationism and post-tribulationism, as the terminology suggests, differ as to the timing of the rapture, but have relatively few defenders.2

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
The new covenant is in addition to the Abrahamic Covenant, not a replacement of it.

The New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise, based on Galatians 3:16-29.

I am Abraham's seed and inherit the promise, through Christ.

Gal_3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

The guy in the video is a scholar of the Hebrew language. Are you?

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Choose Wisely · Jun 13, 2018

BABerean2 said:
You do not seem to know the difference between the Lord God who created the universe and Lord Rothschild, whose family created the modern State of Israel.

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LOL. You seem to have a problem giving God credit for what was prophesied to happen. And yet we see the nation of Israel as prophesied. We see the people have been gathered from many nations as prophesied. We see they speak a pure language as prophesied. I could go on and on. Here is but a small sample.

Jeremiah 31:10

Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, And declare in the coastlands afar off, And say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him And keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock."

Psalm 147:2
The LORD builds up Jerusalem; He gathers the outcasts of Israel.

Isaiah 56:8
The Lord GOD, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, "Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered."

Ezekiel 39:27
"When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.

Psalm 107:2-3
Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, Whom He has redeemed from the hand of the adversary And gathered from the lands, From the east and from the west, From the north and from the south.

Isaiah 54:7
"For a brief moment I forsook you, But with great compassion I will gather you.

Ezekiel 39:28
"Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.

What if we could find many verses in the Bible that said that God was going cause the moon to be destroyed. Then one day the United States shoots a giant nuke and vaporizes the moon. So even though God prophesied it to happen.......you would not give him credit because the United States shot the nuke? Much to learn you have......

Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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