The Apostle Paul: “What matters is keeping the commandments of God”

Dkh587 · Jun 13, 2018

the Apostle wrote that no matter who you are when you were called into Christ, that what matters the most is to keep the commandments of God

Notice that he taught this in ALL of the churches/assemblies of Christ. All of the assemblies/churches Paul taught at, lived in obedience to God’s commands as taught by the Apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 NIV

Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them.

This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised.

Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised.

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing.

Keeping God’s commands is what counts.

‭

Halbhh · Jun 13, 2018

Echoing Christ our Lord. Matthew 7:21-27, John chapters 13, 14 and 15, and more. He said that all of His Words were from the Father, and He established our New Covenant, and gave His new commandment to us (John chapter 13, and further in 14 and 15).

RDKirk · Jun 13, 2018

You rather missed the point of that passage. The point is that it is not necessary to change one's station if one is able to keep God's commands while in his or her current station.

Dkh587 · Jun 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
You rather missed the point of that passage. The point is that it is not necessary to change one's station if one is able to keep God's commands while in his or her current station.

How so? He’s saying that who you are doesn’t count: obeying God’s commands is what counts. I didn’t miss anything. It’s written plainly.

Halbhh · Jun 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
You rather missed the point of that passage. The point is that it is not necessary to change one's station if one is able to keep God's commands while in his or her current station.

A good paraphrase of that passage, and looks like you two both understood it the same. Here's why I think it's always hard to guess what other people mean precisely, even when we think we know what they were trying to say:

Post #42 :

Handmaid for Jesus · Jun 13, 2018

Dkh587 said:
the Apostle wrote that no matter who you are when you were called into Christ, that what matters the most is to keep the commandments of God

Notice that he taught this in ALL of the churches/assemblies of Christ. All of the assemblies/churches Paul taught at, lived in obedience to God’s commands as taught by the Apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 NIV

‭

The new commandment that Lord Jesus gave is love one another. Just that.Not the keeping of the law. In fact all of the Law hinges on love according to Lord Jesus. Apostle Paul taught the Galatians
Gal. 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

It is not by keeping of the Law that we are justified. And if this is what you believe, you have fallen from grace.

συνείδησις · Jun 13, 2018

The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said? Both? You can't follow both without being half-hearted towards both. If you follow the former with all of your heart, you won't fulfill the righteousness required by the latter. But if you follow the latter with all of your heart, you will fulfill the righteousness required by the former (Romans 8:4). That's a good rule to live by.

Handmaid for Jesus · Jun 13, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said? Both? You can't follow both without being half-hearted towards both. If you follow the former with all of your heart, you won't fulfill the righteousness required by the latter. But if you follow the latter with all of your heart, you will fulfill the righteousness required by the former (Romans 8:4). That's a good rule to live by.

So there really is no question.

Halbhh · Jun 13, 2018

Handmaid for Jesus said:
The new commandment that Lord Jesus gave is love one another. Just that.Not the keeping of the law. In fact all of the Law hinges on love according to Lord Jesus. Apostle Paul taught the Galatians
Gal. 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

It is not by keeping of the Law that we are justified. And if this is what you believe, you have fallen from grace.

συνείδησις said:
The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said? Both? You can't follow both without being half-hearted towards both. If you follow the former with all of your heart, you won't fulfill the righteousness required by the latter. But if you follow the latter with all of your heart, you will fulfill the righteousness required by the former (Romans 8:4). That's a good rule to live by.

Paul wrote it this way near the end of Romans --

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

(Paul also writes this in Galatians chapter 5)

So, there you see Paul giving what is to be obeyed, put into practice, that which we are to do -- doing love. (And we must confess when we go against it and disobey (1 John chapter 1, and also the rest of this invaluable epistle too), but His great mercy and Grace is that we are cleansed if we confess! (chapter 1). The epistle 1rst John can help clarify that we must love (it is not optional), if one didn't already read Christ commanding us to from the gospels. Also the invaluable how-to of Matthew 7:12 helps in many situations that seem complex until we apply Matthew 7:12. Another helpful wording was Paul's in Galatians 6:2

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 13, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said? Both? You can't follow both without being half-hearted towards both. If you follow the former with all of your heart, you won't fulfill the righteousness required by the latter. But if you follow the latter with all of your heart, you will fulfill the righteousness required by the former (Romans 8:4). That's a good rule to live by.

They are the same... unless you don't think Jesus and His Father were One in agreement on such things. When Jesus said the two commandments that all the Law and prophets hung on were to love God and neighbour, He was merely quoting OT scripture referring to the 10. Under the NC we have the Holy Spirit to aid us in keeping the Commandments in letter and spirit, which the OT patriarchs did not have under the OC.

dqhall · Jun 13, 2018

Dkh587 said:
the Apostle wrote that no matter who you are when you were called into Christ, that what matters the most is to keep the commandments of God

Notice that he taught this in ALL of the churches/assemblies of Christ. All of the assemblies/churches Paul taught at, lived in obedience to God’s commands as taught by the Apostle Paul

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 NIV

‭

Galatians 5:2 (WEB)
Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

I think Paul reckoned circumcision as a thing of outward appearance and not a thing of intelligence.
Romans 2:28 (WEB - Public Domain) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh;

The ancient Egyptians circumcised. The Muslims circumcise. Circumcision in and of itself is less important than commandments against murder, adultery, theft and false testimony. I may become a servant of God without becoming circumcised.

Shimshon · Jun 13, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
Under the NC we have the Holy Spirit to aid us in keeping the Commandments in letter and spirit, which the OT patriarchs did not have under the OC.

And they were all saved, found righteous is God's sight, and justified. And, at least they had all the means necessary to fulfill the commands of the Law. Because it was given to them. Land, Produce, all the 'blessings', everything was all attainable to the patriarchs and their descendants. Through faith they operated the commands of the law that were given them by God. And each knew Yeshua, God their salvation.

But, quite the contrary for you. You have no means to accomplish even the least of the commands given Israel by God through Moses, because you have no land, no priesthood to function the temple, no temple, no promise of EVER receiving them because. Get this, they were not given to you!

Yeshua was given to all the world as a new covenant for the remission for all our sins under the first covenant. Jews and Gentiles, Israel and the nations. The command, by God, is to believe in His Son for the forgiveness of our sins. AND believe that he will come into our beings this very second and live, dwell, make his home in us. Where he continually day by day keeps, protects, and saves us from all our sins. Past present and future. The command is to receive eternal life, not laws that deal with sins and death. Our Lord, YOUR lord if he so be has overcome death, in this very moment. If you ...believe.

Yeshua brought life, eternal. More abundant life. Abraham saw his day and rejoiced. All the world will be restored. Not to laws that deal with sins and death, but to life more abundantly, eternal. The Spirit is given to restore this relationship between God and man. It's the first fruits of the Kingdom that is rising like the dawn.

What is abundantly clear about the OP text is it does not say, 'what counts is "following the laws given Moses"'. What is even more abundantly clear from the OP presentation is an ignorance about what the command of God actually is for us, through Yeshua.

συνείδησις · Jun 13, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
They are the same... unless you don't think Jesus and His Father were One in agreement on such things..

The father said to listen to Jesus, not Moses.

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. So Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here! If you want, I will make here three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” Matthew 17:3-5

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 13, 2018

Shimshon said:
And they were all saved, found righteous is God's sight, and justified. And, at least they had all the means necessary to fulfill the commands of the Law. Because it was given to them. Land, Produce, all the 'blessings', everything was all attainable to the patriarchs and their descendants. Through faith they operated the commands of the law that were given them by God. And each knew Yeshua, God their salvation.

But, quite the contrary for you. You have no means to accomplish even the least of the commands given Israel by God through Moses, because you have no land, no priesthood to function the temple, no temple, no promise of EVER receiving them because. Get this, they were not given to you!

Yeshua was given to all the world as a new covenant for the remission for all our sins under the first covenant. Jews and Gentiles, Israel and the nations. The command, by God, is to believe in His Son for the forgiveness of our sins. AND believe that he will come into our beings this very second and live, dwell, make his home in us. Where he continually day by day keeps, protects, and saves us from all our sins. Past present and future. The command is to receive eternal life, not laws that deal with sins and death. Our Lord, YOUR lord if he so be has overcome death, in this very moment. If you ...believe.

Yeshua brought life, eternal. More abundant life. Abraham saw his day and rejoiced. All the world will be restored. Not to laws that deal with sins and death, but to life more abundantly, eternal. The Spirit is given to restore this relationship between God and man. It's the first fruits of the Kingdom that is rising like the dawn.

What is abundantly clear about the OP text is it does not say, 'what counts is "following the laws given Moses"'. What is even more abundantly clear from the OP presentation is an ignorance about what the command of God actually is for us, through Yeshua.

So you contend that because I am not a OT Israelite, I cannot worship and honour God above all others? That I cannot refrain from making idols from the things in my life? That I cannot keep the seventh day Sabbath Holy by not profaning it with worldliness? Are you saying , that I cannot honour my parents because I am not an OT Israelite? Or that I cannot seek victory from anger or lust or covetousness?

I would wholeheartedly disagree. Christ's Spirit gives me these abilities through faith.

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 13, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The father said to listen to Jesus, not Moses.

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. So Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here! If you want, I will make here three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him.” Matthew 17:3-5

Can you show that Jesus was speaking of a different set of Commandments than what was given at Sinai? I can produce OT scripture that proves He was speaking of the same.

συνείδησις · Jun 13, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
Can you show that Jesus was speaking of a different set of Commandments than what was given at Sinai? I can produce OT scripture that proves He was speaking of the same.

Sure - "You have heard that Moses said ..., but I say..."

If Moses is who we are to follow then why did GOD tell Moses that he would send another lawgiver with new law that people would be judged by?

I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee [Moses]; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19

The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:48-49

EastCoastRemnant · Jun 13, 2018

συνείδησις said:
Sure - "You have heard that Moses said ..., but I say..."

If Moses is who we are to follow then why did GOD tell Moses that he would send another lawgiver with new law that people would be judged by?

I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee [Moses]; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19

The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:48-49

That is where you are wrong... Moses didn't proclaim the Decalogue, God did. Moses didn't write the Commandments down on stone... God did. So who's Words are you going to follow?

συνείδησις · Jun 13, 2018

EastCoastRemnant said:
That is where you are wrong... Moses didn't proclaim the Decalogue, God did. Moses didn't write the Commandments down on stone... God did. So who's Words are you going to follow?

Silly game of semantics. GOD gave all of the law of Moses. The words of the son of GOD are what I will follow.

RDKirk · Jun 13, 2018

συνείδησις said:
The $64 question is, "What are GOD's commandments?" What Moses said, or what Jesus and his apostles said? Both? You can't follow both without being half-hearted towards both. If you follow the former with all of your heart, you won't fulfill the righteousness required by the latter. But if you follow the latter with all of your heart, you will fulfill the righteousness required by the former (Romans 8:4). That's a good rule to live by.

But--and this is my main point to the OP--that is not the question Paul is answering for the Corinthians in that passage.

He has apparently been asked if it's necessary for a person to change his station--particularly slaves and wives--in order to be Christians.

This had been a perennial "dinner conversation" philosophical point: Because a slave (or a wife) was obligated and constrained to obey his master, is the morality of a slave's actions the morality of the slave or the morality of the master?

This is part of Paul's answer to that question was this and part of his answer is also found in Ephesians.

And you see how this thread has gone to the tiresome dispute over the Old Law and the New Law instead of Paul's point about whether it's necessary for a person to change his station in order to be a Christian.

συνείδησις · Jun 13, 2018

RDKirk said:
But--and this is my main point to the OP--that is not the question Paul is answering for the Corinthians in that passage.

He has apparently been asked if it's necessary for a person to change his station--particularly slaves and wives--in order to be Christians.

This had been a perennial "dinner conversation" philosophical point: Because a slave (or a wife) was obligated and constrained to obey his master, is the morality of a slave's actions the morality of the slave or the morality of the master?

This is part of Paul's answer to that question was this and part of his answer is also found in Ephesians.

And you see how this thread has gone to the tiresome dispute over the Old Law and the New Law instead of Paul's point about whether it's necessary for a person to change his station in order to be a Christian.

10-4, but I'll have to say that you didn't make that very clear in the OP. Your stress was on keeping the commandments, both in the title and in your comment.

The Apostle Paul: “What matters is keeping the commandments of God”

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