Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

jgr said:

AKA you, me, and everyone else on planet earth, as the Jewish religiocultural community itself acknowledges and applauds. Perhaps you should listen to them.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

The Jews do not consider you a Jew unless your mother is a Jew.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

The Jews do not consider you a Jew unless your mother is a Jew.

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

That which the Bible teaches is precisely what my posts consist of, that refute your above unqualified scriptural mistranslational teachings, that has nothing whatever to do with my pride!

WHY THE CHURCH IS NOT ISRAEL

We come now to something that is crucial and needs to be defined to understand the new covenant. Is the Church Israel? For if it is ,we are obligated to keep Sabbath day at least in a general sense. If the Church is not Israel then what sense would there be to keep the Sabbath. Scripturally we find the Church is not Israel the nation but a separate entity under an entirely new covenant. Israel is called the wife of Jehovah, while the Church is called the bride of Christ, showing distinctions in how God relates to each. The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. It was Jacob who’s name was changed to Israel and had 12 sons that became that nation.

Many transfer the promises and the covenants to Israel to the Church, but there is absolutely no reason to do this. The Church is not spiritual Israel. Look it up you’ll never find the term or concept in the Bible. There are only two verses that are used to validate this view, both are unsupported in their context.

Gal.3:29 says that those who belong to Christ are Abraham’s seed. The seed of Abraham does not mean one is Israel. It Means those who are justified by faith are spiritual descendants of Abraham but this does not make them descendants of Jacob who is Israel. They partake in the spiritual blessings that come through Israel. While there are two different groups of people who can be descendants of Abraham one of which is the Arabs, they do not share in the promises of Jacob. Only Israel is descended from the physical posterity of Jacob.

The other verse is Gal.6:16 where Paul is addressing both believing Jews and Gentiles in the church "As many as walk according to this rule (Gentile believers) and upon "the Israel of God." In its context this term means Jews who are believers, who believe salvation is by faith in Christ contrary to what the Judaizers were teaching that the law was needed also. Paul also addresses this in Rom.9:6-8 that there are two Israel's, one that consists of Jews and the elect, the true Israel which are the physical posterity and also have the faith of Abraham, they are the Israel of God mentioned in Gal.6. As Paul states, " for they are not all Israel who are of Israel." (Rom.9:6). There is also "Israel" after the flesh found in 1 Cor.10:18. The Church is never called spiritual Israel or is a new Israel replacing the old. Nor does it say believers become Jews. Both gentiles and Jews participate together in the New Covenant. as Eph 2 addresses the middle wall of partition being broken down and God makeing a new entity.

In the N.T we have three terms used alongside each other, Israel, Gentiles and the Church. The Church consists of both believing Gentiles and Jews while Israel as a nation is in unbelief as are the Gentiles. The Church and Israel are two distinct groups and God has a different program for each. Both are brought in make up the body of Christ. The name Israel is used 20 times and the church 19 times in the book of Acts, both are kept distinct While there is no difference in salvation for both, Gods plans are different for each. In the book of Acts Israel and the church exist alongside each other, nowhere is the church called the new or spiritual Israel.There are certain areas the differences of Jew and gentile are erased but in all areas.Such as we becoming one in Christ all the same way 1 Cor.12:13 , according to the NT a Jew is one that is not only outwardly by the flesh but inwardly,this obviously can't be for a gentile so for a gentile. there is no such thing as a spiritual Jew from the inside only, but there is such a thing as spiritual gentiles.

If you claim to be Israel then you were cut off according to Romans.11. And where the natural branch once was, God grafted in unnatural ones the Gentiles. It doesn't get any clearer. The teaching of God abandoning Israel the nation or replaced by the Church did quite well for almost 1,500 hundred years until he actually gave them back their land AND STARTED TO REGATHER THEM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD JUST AS HE SAID HE WOULD. God said in Neh. 1:8 if you are unfaithful I will scatter you.' but he also said...

Jer.30:18, 31:8 "Behold I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the ends of the earth."

Isa.43:5 I will bring your descendants from the east and gather you from the west...

It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God has a differnt plan for both.


From: Let Us Reason


Quasar92

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

The pre-trib rapture is not a fail until the 70th week starts....without the rapture having to take place.... irrespective if the rationale behind it is right or wrong. If the 70th week begins - and no rapture yet - then the pre-trib view will be a fail.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Reread the article's claim.

"The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob."

If you have Abraham's DNA, then you are a physical descendant of Abraham, irrespective of matrilineality.

Click to expand...

keras said:

Where is their proof of ancestry?
All the Jewish written records were destroyed in 70 AD.
There is only word of mouth passed down over nearly 2000 years. Not very reliable!

Only God knows who are Israelites. Amos 9:9
Anyway the Lord has harsh things to say about those who say they are Jews. Rev 2:9

Click to expand...

keras said:

But why even consider a 'rapture to heaven', when such a thing is never prophesied?
Many Bible prophesies tell us our tasks as faithful believers and what God has planned for those He cares for. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8
Escaping the planet isn't an option.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

Abraham had a child by Haggar, Ishmael, a different lineage that Israel. On a different track, that of Isaac, Jacob is Abraham's grandson. Jacob became Israel.

To be a Jew is according to the mother, is not by DNA, but going back to the time of Nehemiah. Jews don't check you DNA for to determine with a person is Jew or not, but whether the mother is Jew.

Click to expand...

Quasar92 said:

Are Israel and the church the same thing? Does God still have a plan for Israel?

This topic is one of the more controversial in the Church today, and it has significant implications regarding the way we interpret Scripture, especially concerning the end times. More importantly, it has great significance in that it affects the way we understand the very nature and character of God Himself.

Romans 11:16-36 records the illustration of the olive tree. This passage speaks of Israel the (“natural” branches) being broken off from the olive tree, and the Church (“wild” branches or shoots) being grafted into the olive tree. Since Israel is referred to as branches, as well as the Church, it stands to reason that neither group is the “whole tree,” so to speak; rather, the whole tree represents God’s workings with mankind as a whole. Therefore, God’s program with Israel and God’s program with the Church are part of the outworking of His purpose among men in general. Of course, this is not intended to mean that either program is of little significance. As many commentators have noted, more space is given in the Bible regarding God’s programs with Israel and with the Church than any of God’s other dealings!

In Genesis 12, God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation (the Jews), the Jews would possess a land, that nation would be blessed above all other nations, and all other nations would be blessed from Israel. So, from the beginning God revealed that Israel would be His chosen people on the earth, but that His blessing would not be limited to them exclusively. Galatians 3:14 identifies the nature of the blessing to come to all the other nations: “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” All the nations of the world were blessed by Israel, through whom the Savior of the world came.

God’s plan of redemption is built upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David and Abraham. But Christ’s death on the cross is sufficient for the sins of the entire world, not just the Jews! Galatians 3:6-8 states, “Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’” Finally, Galatians 3:29 says, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” In other words, in Christ, believers are counted righteous by faith in the same way that Abraham was (Galatians 3:6-8). If we are in Christ, then we are partakers of the blessing of Israel and all nations in the redemptive work of Christ. Believers become the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Believers do not become physical Jews, but they may enjoy the same type of blessings and privileges as the Jews.

Now, this does not contradict or nullify the revelation given in the Old Testament. God’s promises in the Old Testament are still valid, and God’s relationship with Israel as a chosen people points to the work of Christ as a Redeemer of the whole world. The Mosaic Law is still mandatory for all Jews who have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah. Jesus did what they could not do—fulfill the Law in all its details (Matthew 5:17). As New Testament believers, we are no longer under the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13), because Christ has taken that curse upon Himself on the cross. The Law served two purposes: to reveal sin and mankind’s inability (on his own merit) to do anything about it, and to point us to Christ, who fulfills the Law. His death on the cross completely satisfies God’s righteous requirement of perfection.

God’s unconditional promises are not invalidated by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is ever a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. No, God is sovereign over all things—past, present and future—and what He has foreordained for both Israel and the Church will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. Romans 3:3-4 explains that Israel’s unbelief would not nullify His promises concerning them: “What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: ‘So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.’"

Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. We can be sure that all God has said is true and will take place, because of His character and consistency. The Church does not replace Israel and should not expect a symbolic fulfillment of the promises of the Old Covenant As one reads Scripture, it is necessary to keep Israel and the Church separate.

Recommended Resource: Dispensationalism by Charles Ryrie


Quasar92

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Every human being on planet earth includes every mother on planet earth, and every human being on planet earth now possessing Abraham's DNA means that every mother on planet earth now possesses Abraham's DNA, and is thus a Jew along with everyone else.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

Every human being on the planet has nature of sin in their blood. It was passed down from Adam through the man's seed not the woman's seed - or else Jesus would have had original sin, the sin nature.

Abraham's men descendants passed Abraham's DNA to all the nations of the world. So what? That does not make everyone's mother a Jew. Jesus's mother had to be a Jew for him to be a Jew - are you going to use your DNA argument to say Jesus was not a Jew?

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Jesus was Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:16). How would He not be a Jew?

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

Jesus would be descended from Abraham. Ihsmael was descended from Abraham - he was not a Jew - his mother was not a Jew.

Jesus would be descended from Abraham and his mother a Jew.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Ishmael did not descend from Jacob, thus he is not labeled a Jew. But he and his descendants still possessed and possess Abraham's DNA. Genetics does not concern itself with labels. It concerns itself only with DNA.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

You had asked - Jesus was Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:16). How would He not be a Jew?

You were implying that Abraham's descendents were Jews - which in turn made Jesus a Jew. Well not all Abramham's descendant were Jews. I gave you the example of Ishmael.

Thus Abraham's seed is not what made Jesus a Jew. Jesus was a Jew because his mother was Jew.

You can't use the DNA argument against Jews of today, without using it to say Jesus was not a Jew... because Jesus was 2000 years after Abraham.

The Jews are Jews the same as how Jesus was a Jew - his mother was a Jew.

Click to expand...

jgr said:

By genetic dispersion and diffusion through intermarriage and interbreeding over approximately 100 40-year biblical generations since Abraham (or Jacob, if you wish to be technical); every person, which includes every mother, and every offspring of every mother, on the planet; possesses the Abrahamic (or Jacobic) genome.

Thus everyone's mother is a Jew.

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

Keras, if your place of record of birth was destroyed there in NZ, would you still know if your mother was your mother? Would your mother know if her mother was her mother?

Click to expand...

Douggg said:

But it is prophesied.

Click to expand...

keras said:

The issue of genealogy is irrelevant. Titus 3:9
Since Jesus came, the only way for anyone, Jew and Gentile, to be saved is to be born again in Christ. He said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father except thru Me.
It is just unscriptural nonsense to think that anyone's ethnicity is a ticket to salvation.

Click to expand...

keras said:

A 'rapture to heaven' is prophesied, you say? You must show us all the verse

Click to expand...

jgr said:

Thanks.

As I anticipated, there is not one instance where Irenaeus uses the expression "the righteous" to mean anything other than "all the righteous". Thus, in his commentary, "...the last contest of the righteous..." does not refer only to tribulation believers, but rather to all believers i.e. the Church, and thus refers to the Church experiencing the tribulation in its entirety, i.e. "the last contest". There is no contest if the Church is raptured before it competes.

Irenaeus was no pretribber.

Click to expand...