Church Tradition

Albion

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If it isn't in scripture it should be tossed aside, no matter how many generations have been practicing it. From Sunday worship (an admittedly Catholic-forced tradition) to Easter, etc. There's a way to walk and live spelled out for us in scripture, but we desire traditions instead unfortunately.
Since we are now talking about traditions (customs, legends, etc.) rather than the dogma-setting theory called Tradition, I have to disagree with what you wrote here.

If something is not in Scripture, that does not in itself make it wrong. If it is prohibited by Scripture, then of course you must not go there. For example, there is very little specific in Scripture about funerals, but that does not mean that having flowers in a church building and a guest book for mourners to sign must be avoided by Bible-believing Christians.
 
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Devin P

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Since we are now talking about traditions (customs, legends, etc.) rather than the dogma-setting theory called Tradition, I have to disagree with what you wrote here.

If something is not in Scripture, that does not in itself make it wrong. If it is prohibited by Scripture, then of course you must not go there. For example, there is very little specific in Scripture about funerals, but that does not mean that having flowers in a church building and a guest book for mourners to sign must be avoided by Bible-believing Christians.
I was more so referring to theological tradition. Things where scripture says one thing, but tradition another.
 
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Mountainmike

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With respect.
Please limit posting to explaining anglicanism, too many posts radiate a lack of understanding catholicism. I am only too happy to see catholicism criticised for what it does believe, not what illinformed protestants say it believes which is generally misleading . I can only suggest others ask catholics what they mean before comment on it.

In this case:
The examples you cite are of (clearly scriptural based )authority ,
NOT tradition so your statement is totally false.

Authority is the (scripturally based) power of the church (that is the apostolic successors together) to "bind and loose" - that is resolve disputes on true doctrine.
But also the power is given to Peter himself separately in scripture in Matthew 16:19 when he was given the "keys of the kingdom" a direct reference back to similar references in davidic times "keys worn upon the shoulder" symbol of an office, similar to prime minister "what he opens none can shut". and called "father". See the OT references.

It is therefore incumbant upon that office of keys to resolve a dispute on when and how this (clearly scriptural) power is exercised. So the doctrine of papal infallibility made with the power to "Bind and loose" sought to LIMIT that power , not extend it, so that all would know which pronouncements were made with that seal. Which is why the pope stated it "ex cathedra" a direct reference back to "moses seat" that Jesus referred. So most of what the pope says is well informed but not infallible. He ias after all the chief pastor of the church: appointed by Jesus to "tend my sheep" "feed my lambs"
But Very few doctrinal statements have ever been made ex cathedra.

So that is the issue of infallibility which is clearly scriptural as you see above - a matter of authority NOT tradition.

Indeed without the authority of the church to "bind and loose" (successors to apostles acting together) you would have neither creed nor canon, so all christians rely on that power. Now read Matthew 16:19 and the OT that heralded the office of keys.

I would also hasten to add - bodily assumption to heaven clearly exists in the bible Elijah and Enoch as two examples - and no earthly relic of Mary has ever been claimed or found - so not an unreasonable assumption from history too. It is clear from scripture and history of such as Polycarp that even in the first century relics had power and were taken, so the lack of Marian relics clearly needs explanation.
Do you not think Christ would do this for his own mother too? And if we choose to believe that - what is it to you? How does it change Christianity?


I am not against criticism of catholicism for what it does believe, but not for what illinformed anglicans says it believes. In future, please ask before mislead people

Well, you have put your finger on one of the main reasons that reformed Christians do not agree with this concept but, instead, adhere to the Bible as the ultimate guide to doctrine. This is one of the most significant issues involved with the start of the Reformation, you recall.

But worse than that, the critics would say, is the fact that there never really is that kind of consensus I referred to. It is merely theorized. Either the legend or custom that the church leadership cites as the basis for a non-Scriptural dogma has been believed by only some Christians, or else it had always been in doubt. Papal Infallibility, for example. Or the Assumption of Mary bodily into heaven.

Both are required of the members of the Roman Catholic Church but neither has even a sliver of Biblical backing. No matter..."Sacred Tradition" can be cited as the justification for the church leaders to have made them into "infallible" teachings.
 
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Mountainmike

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I was more so referring to theological tradition. Things where scripture says one thing, but tradition another.
There are none.
Only where someones interpretation of scripture, disagrees with tradition.

But that is what tradition is for - providing the correct meaning to scripture.
Without which all you have is words. They are only the word of God if you use the correct meaning!
 
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Clint Edwards

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I’ve noticed some people seem to be deeply into church tradition, theologically speaking. Is church tradition always inerrant?
No. Nothing is inerrant but the Bible. Denominations major in minors, and for some, tradition, a minor, has become major.
 
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Albion

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Authority is the (scripturally based) power of the church (that is the apostolic successors together) to "bind and loose" - that is resolve disputes on true doctrine.
But also the power is given to Peter himself separately in scripture in Matthew 16:19 when he was given the "keys of the kingdom" a direct reference back to similar references in davidic times "keys worn upon the shoulder" symbol of an office, similar to prime minister "what he opens none can shut". and called "father". See the OT references.

It is therefore incumbant upon that office of keys to resolve a dispute on when and how this (clearly scriptural) power is exercised.
Notice how smoothly you move from making a statement about Peter to...
"office of the keys." There is no office of the keys for Peter to be transferring.

Whats more, Peter did I not even choose a successor, let alone consecrate him a bishop! The Catholic Church itself admits that this is the case.

And as for the OT mention of keys, that one is different in several ways from the alleged authority of Peter, so it says nothing about interpreting the meaning of the keys in the NT.
 
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Devin P

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There are none.
Only where someones interpretation of scripture, disagrees with tradition.

But that is what tradition is for - providing the correct meaning to scripture.
Without which all you have is words. They are only the word of God if you use the correct meaning!
Sunday as the sabbath is a tradition. Christmas is a tradition. Both oppose God.

Nothing about either of those is based on anyone's interpretation, they're just traditions, and they're not biblical.

Christmas is wildly pagan, and regarding the worship of other "gods", God is not pleased when it comes to spiritual adultery.
 
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Mountainmike

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Notice how smoothly you move from making a statement about Peter to...
"office of the keys." There is no office of the keys for Peter to be transferring.

Whats more, Peter did I not even choose a successor, let alone consecrate him a bishop!

And as for the OT mention of keys, that one is different in several ways from the alleged authority of Peter, so it says nothing about interpreting the meaning of the keys in the NT.

I was explaining papal infallibility,as a matter of (scriptural ) authority - not your (false) statements on it which implied it as a matter of tradition. I gave the background to that scriptural authority..

Let people judge catholicism on what it believes, not what Albion (wrongly ) says it believes. First understand it (eg catholic view of tradition) before criticise it.
 
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Albion

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I was explaining papal infallibility,as a matter of (scriptural ) authority
No, you were speaking of the office of the keys and Christs statement to Peter about keys.

No alleged infallibility of the Pope is referred to or implied anywhere in those verses. The very idea did not arise until many centuries later in church history.
 
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LoveofTruth

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With respect.

James 2:1
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."


James 2:9
"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."


Authority is


True authority is when believers speak and live the word of God in the Spirit. Authority is not static or in a positional authrority in the church. It flows from Christ the head through all the body and more mature brothers ( elders0 are able to use the word skillfully and babes are not as skillful in the word of righteousness. But no authority is in men in the church or their person.

Jesus authority was challenged by the religious crowd. They did not recognize his authority, they thought they were in a higher authority than him. Jesus was not a earthly king or leader as they knew. He was not in their static positional authority. But he spoke as one having authority. It was his word that was the power. Believers who are in the Spirit and have Christ working in them have his life authortiy and word flowing through them and in them and they live in that word and speak that word.

Matthew 21:23
"And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority"

Matthew 7:29
"For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Hebrews 13:7
"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation."


the apostolic successors together) to "bind and loose" - that is resolve disputes on true doctrine.
But also the power is given to Peter himself separately

Paul; calls it carnal when men denominate under a certain man. Such as Cephas (Peter) or others.

"12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ....31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ."(1 Cor. 3:1 KJV)


and consider

":4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."(1 Cor. 10:4 JV)


2 Samuel 22:32
"For who is God, save the Lord? and who is a rock, save our God?"


Psalm 18:2
"The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower"
 
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Moses James

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All traditions, without exception, are worldly creations. The Commandments of God are not traditions, they are orders from our Lord, God and Savior. These orders are sanctified, untouched by human hands beyond the Prophets and Apostles chosen by God to have these transcribed into his word. Anyone who is exposed to God's word and accepts salvation by Christ will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit and be permanently accepted into Christ's church. There is no need for an intervening "Authority" guided by a "Sacred Tradition" to clear any of the confusion or ambiguity that comes with the Scriptures.
 
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Philip_B

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Matthew 16:13-20
Peter’s Declaration about Jesus
Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say that the Son of Man is?’ And they said, ‘Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ He said to them, ‘But who do you say that I am?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’ Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.​

Here is the scriptural warrant used by @Mountainmike above to argue for the doctrine of Papal Infallibility as belonging to the category of scriptural warrant rather than Holy Tradition.

To do so requires a particular reading of the passage. Indeed it requires a reading of the passage with a deal of material beyond the passage. It requires us to assess that the meaning of this passage is separate and distinct from the reading of John 20:19-23. It requires us to understand that this reading is a matter that belongs to the person of Peter, and a role for Peter not yet established and that such authority might be transmitted to his successors. It the setting of today with the Papal conclave to elect after much prayer, that might make sense, however it requires us to assent to that power having been transmitted through the sacrum obscurum period when the Holy Office was traded in a far more secular way.

John 20: 19-23
Jesus Appears to the Disciples
When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’ After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’ When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’​

When look at the passages together it might be seen that the authority was committed to the Church that confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, rather than specifically on a particular person.

Acts 15:13-21
The Council in Jerusalem
After they finished speaking, James replied, ‘My brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first looked favourably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name. This agrees with the words of the prophets, as it is written,

“After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
from its ruins I will rebuild it, and I will set it up, so that all other peoples may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles over whom my name has been called.
Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things known from long ago.”​

Therefore I have reached the decision that we should not trouble those Gentiles who are turning to God, but we should write to them to abstain only from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from whatever has been strangled and from blood. For in every city, for generations past, Moses has had those who proclaim him, for he has been read aloud every sabbath in the synagogues.’​

Scripture again in Acts seems to suggest that at the first Council in Jerusalem (AD 42) it was James who acted as the first among equals and spokesperson for the Church.

The matter of Roman Primacy was a matter of discussion at the 1st Council of Constantinople (AD 381), when the order of primacy was discussed (Constantinople being the seat of empire having been founded as Nova Romanum), and it was agreed that Constantinople was first in order only after Rome, which was justified on the basis of the Matthew passage quoted above. The authority of the Church, as against the primacy was with the Council, and they looked for a consensus among the Patriarchs (Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus), which still appears to carry the weight of first among equals. At this stage the Bishop of Rome was understood to be Patriarch of the West.

The authority over others was a matter of historical development and conflict, as seen in areas such as the Photian Schism (AD C880), The Coronation of Henry II leading to the Great Schism (AD 1014-1054), The Council of Florence, and Vatican 1 (AD 1870) which declared the doctrine of Papal Infallibility.

I do maintain a great respect for my sisters and brother in communion with the Bishop of Rome, and intend a healthy respect for the holder of the office, (indeed I might even be a fan of the current Pope) and I recognise the primacy of the office, as first among equals, and a strong moral authority, however I have too much history to place the Office above Scripture, or the Office above the Councils.

This was going to be short, and I apologise, however I was trying to make the point that to argue that Papal Infallibility is simply scripture and not tradition is an argument I think can be questioned.
 
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TuxAme

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All traditions, without exception, are worldly creations. The Commandments of God are not traditions, they are orders from our Lord, God and Savior. These orders are sanctified, untouched by human hands beyond the Prophets and Apostles chosen by God to have these transcribed into his word. Anyone who is exposed to God's word and accepts salvation by Christ will be given the gift of the Holy Spirit and be permanently accepted into Christ's church. There is no need for an intervening "Authority" guided by a "Sacred Tradition" to clear any of the confusion or ambiguity that comes with the Scriptures.
How can you say that, when we wouldn't even know what writings make up Scripture without some authority to reach that conclusion?
 
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Phil 1:21

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No, you were speaking of the office of the keys and Christs statement to Peter about keys.

No alleged infallibility of the Pope is referred to or implied anywhere in those verses. The very idea did not arise until many centuries later in church history.
Kind of like purgatory?
 
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dreadnought

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You haven't defined what you mean by "church tradition" so how is anybody expected to give a reasonable answer?
Let's define "church tradition" as those traditions held by the church that neither Jesus nor God discuss in the Bible.
 
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dreadnought

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"Church Tradition" is properly understood as learning about and understanding Christianity as it was understood in previous centuries.

I continue to find myself shocked at how many Christians have memorized particular verses from the bible, but know nothing of Christian history. If you asked a devout bible believing Christian about the state of Christianity in the 10th Century, many would look confused, and then asked if you were saved.
But do we come to understand the Lord by reading church history, or do we come to know him by walking with him?
 
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