Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

seventysevens

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When are you going to admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century
.
Jeremiah 31
31 “At that time,” declares the Lord, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people.”

This has not happened yet , because Jesus will return First !

2 This is what the Lord says:
“The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the wilderness;
I will come to give rest to Israel.”


has not happened yet

3 The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying:
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
4 I will build you up again,
and you, Virgin Israel, will be rebuilt.
Again you will take up your timbrels
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
‘Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the Lord our God.’”
has not happened yet

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins
no more.

All happens after Israel receives the punishment for rejecting Jesus has come to an end and they Finally accept Jesus as LORD
 
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Quasar92

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When are you going to admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

And when are you going to quit posting things from others, instead of explaining the passages found above, all by yourself?

.


There is no need for my admission to the knowledge of who is being addressed in the Bible. In addition, this a public forum and not something for your private debate or discussion with someone else. Capiche?!


Quasar92
 
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TribulationSigns

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When are you going to understand, the Church IS NOT Israel? Quasar92

Newsflash Quasar!

You need to put aside your dispensationalism doctrine and go to the AUTHORITY of the Scripture clearly said that the church "IS" Israel! Here are Biblical lessons for you:

1.) Romans 11

Romans 11:16-36
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The passage speaks of Israel as the "natural" branches being broken off from the Olive Tree, and the Gentile Church as "wild branches" grafted into the same olive tree where they will take part of the same root, and fatness of the Olive Tree promised to Israel. The Olive Tree represents "Covenant Israel" which is God's workings with chosen mankind as a whole!

2. Genesis 12

Genesis 12:1-3
[1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation (The Jews), the Jews would possess a land, that nation would be blessed above all other nations, and all other nations would be blessed from Israel. So, from the beginning, God revealed that Israel would be His chosen people on Earth, but that His blessing would not be limited to the Jews exclusively!

Galatians 3:13-14
[13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
[14] That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

God's plan of redemption is built upon the FINISHED WORK of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David and Abraham. But Christ's death on the cross is sufficient for the sins of His People, including the Gentiles! Not just the Jews! As it is written:

Galatians 3:6-9
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
[8] And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
[9] So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Finally, God said:

Galatians 3:28-29
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you understand that the Gentiles believers do not have to become physical Jews to be qualified, but they may enjoy the same type of blessings and privileges as the Jews! In other words, they are spiritually Jews IN CHRIST! Therefore, the Gentiles Church "is" Israel, according to God!

The church does NOT replace Israel. God INCLUDED His New Testament Congregation Church into same Covenant Israel Tree initiated with Old Testament congregation of Israel. You like to keep Israel and Church separate to fit your theology by crying "replacement theology" but that was nothing but a red herring! The Scripture refuted you again... if you receive it.
 
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jgr

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Irenaeus:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, Paragraph 1)

If I understand correctly, your claim is that the Church is the Church; but the righteous are not the Church but rather only tribulation believers.

Yet Irenaeus earlier describes the righteous as all believers, i.e. the Church:

"For whatsoever we acquired from unrighteousness when we were heathen, we are proved righteous, when we have become believers, by applying it to the Lord's advantage." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XXX Paragraph 3)

"The Father, therefore, who has prepared the kingdom for the righteous, into which the Son has received those worthy of it, is He who has also prepared the furnace of fire, into which these angels commissioned by the Son of man shall send those persons who deserve it, according to God's command." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XL Paragraph 2)

Furthermore, there is no instance in the remainder of Book V, after the first quotation above, in which a reference to "righteous" is restricted to only tribulation believers.


Explanation?

What Irenaeus said is completely in accordance with standard pre-trib doctrine. But since you are unfamiliar with that, you do not understand that.

I told you that I had posted the proof of what I said, but upon examination, I have found that I did not after all. So I plan to post it soon in Dispensationalism.

I understand that "the righteous" always means "all the righteous". What else is there to understand?

Still awaiting your proof of Irenaeus' pretribism.

So far, the evidence is that his use of "the righteous" always means "all the righteous", including in his comment "...this is the last contest of the righteous...". It is not limited to only the tribulation righteous.
 
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jgr

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It has not , it will not be fulfilled until Jesus has returned

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


Were Jesus, Paul, and John pulling our collective legs?
 
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jgr

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All happens after Israel receives the punishment for rejecting Jesus has come to an end and they Finally accept Jesus as LORD

Are you referring to this Israel, which the Jewish community agrees is in every person on the planet?

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

If not, what Israel are you referring to?
 
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seventysevens

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Were Jesus, Paul, and John pulling our collective legs?
No - but you are , you refuse to accept and acknowledge that scriptures override you private application of you forcing your square peg into a round hole stripping away the intended application of ALL scripture
 
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jgr

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No - but you are , you refuse to accept and acknowledge that scriptures override you private application of you forcing your square peg into a round hole stripping away the intended application of ALL scripture
Let me help you with the word ALL.

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in ALL the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Acts 13
29 And when they had fulfilled ALL that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

John 19:28
After this, Jesus knowing that ALL things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.


How's that?
 
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seventysevens

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Are you referring to this Israel, which the Jewish community agrees is in every person on the planet?

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

If not, what Israel are you referring to?
Again you show absolutely NO understanding of the entire chapter , none whatsoever , you have no clue at all

and more of your nonsense
Do men create life from nothing ?
God can and does

Can men breath life into the dead and bring them back to life ?
God does
What you read is not even dim glimmer in the capable hands of Almighty God
You focus on men and Not on what God can do
You are like the Darwinists
Given DNA's complete irrelevance to God, it should also be of complete irrelevance to us.

Exactly right; DNA has no value in biblical terms
 
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jgr

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Again you show absolutely NO understanding of the entire chapter , none whatsoever , you have no clue at all

and more of your nonsense
Do men create life from nothing ?
God can and does

Can men breath life into the dead and bring them back to life ?
God does
What you read is not even dim glimmer in the capable hands of Almighty God
You focus on men and Not on what God can do
You are like the Darwinists
Do you agree with the Jewish community?

Or does dispensationalism's "doctrine of ignorance" prohibit it?
 
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Douggg

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You need to throw away your pride and man-made degrees and go to the AUTHORITY of the Scripture clearly said that the church "IS" Israel! Here are Biblical lessons for you:
In Romans 11, Paul is not saying the olive tree is Israel. The olive tree is the Kingdom of God - in which men will have eternal life. It is talking about men, mankind, which Jesus is the root by which the branches have eternal life.

If the olive tree were Israel - then the gentiles, described being of an a olive tree before they were grafted into the Kingdom of God, were Israel already. But obviously, they weren't Israel, but they were men of other nations.

Paul is just saying that the Kingdom of God was taken to the Jews, Israel, first. Likening them to a cultivated olive tree, men of a chosen nation. That generation of Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, rejected Jesus and the Kingdom of God was taken from them. And lost out on eternal life, them who rejected Jesus.

The gentiles though, on the other hand, likening them to a wild olive tree, when the Kingdom of God was being offered to them....they received and they have been grafted into the Kingdom of God. And have received eternal life in Jesus.

The Jews, Israel, for whom the Kingdom of God was original offered, when they receive it will be grafted back in - that is partake in the Kingdom of God, and have eternal life.
 
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TribulationSigns

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In Romans 11, Paul is not saying the olive tree is Israel. The olive tree is the Kingdom of God - in which men will have eternal life.

Do you have a verse where God don't see Olive Tree as Israel but kingdom of God? Prove it!

God already see Olive Tree as Israel!

Jeremiah 11:16-17
[16] The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
[17] For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.
 
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Douggg

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Do you have a verse where God don't see Olive Tree as Israel but kingdom of God? Prove it!

God already see Olive Tree as Israel!

Jeremiah 11:16-17
[16] The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
[17] For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

I proved it already. The gentiles were an olive tree before being grafted in - but gentiles were not Israel by being an olive tree. The whole tree that Paul was talking about Jesus being the root of is the Kingdom of God - men having eternal life. It is not talking about who becomes Israel or not.

Paul in 11:24 refers to the olive tree the gentiles were grafted into as a "good olive" tree. The tree of good men, made good by the blood of Christ. It is just talking about men being in the Kingdom of God, TS.

Jeremiah 11:16-17 is a completely different message. It is applying to Israel being a chosen nation which at Mt. Sinai they agreed that God would be their God, but they started worshiping Baal, and God therefore pronounced evil against them.
 
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BABerean2

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33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins
no more.

All happens after Israel receives the punishment for rejecting Jesus has come to an end and they Finally accept Jesus as LORD

Notice that the passage below contains a direct quote from Jeremiah chapter 31, which is the text you supplied above.
Why do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted that text?


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Why do those in the New Covenant not need a human teacher?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

.
 
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BABerean2

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In Romans 11, Paul is not saying the olive tree is Israel. The olive tree is the Kingdom of God - in which men will have eternal life. It is talking about men, mankind, which Jesus is the root by which the branches have eternal life.

If the olive tree were Israel - then the gentiles, described being of an a olive tree before they were grafted into the Kingdom of God, were Israel already. But obviously, they weren't Israel, but they were men of other nations.

Paul is just saying that the Kingdom of God was taken to the Jews, Israel, first. Likening them to a cultivated olive tree, men of a chosen nation. That generation of Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, rejected Jesus and the Kingdom of God was taken from them. And lost out on eternal life, them who rejected Jesus.

The gentiles though, on the other hand, likening them to a wild olive tree, when the Kingdom of God was being offered to them....they received and they have been grafted into the Kingdom of God. And have received eternal life in Jesus.

The Jews, Israel, for whom the Kingdom of God were original offered, when they receive it will be grafted back in - that is partake in the Kingdom of God, and have eternal life.

You are attempting to ignore one group of branches in the Olive Tree.
There are three different groups in the passage.
There were also the faithful Israelite remnant from Romans 11:5, who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive tree.


.

.
 
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seventysevens

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Notice that the passage below contains a direct quote from Jeremiah chapter 31, which is the text you supplied above.
Why do you think the author of the Book of Hebrews quoted that text?


Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



Why do those in the New Covenant not need a human teacher?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

.





You are cherry picking scripture verses while ignoring others to build a doctrine that fails , that is why you do not understand
 
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Biblewriter

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Douggg

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You are attempting to ignore one group of branches in the Olive Tree.
There are three different groups in the passage.
There were also the faithful Israelite remnant from Romans 11:5, who accepted Christ and remained in the Olive tree.
The olive tree, which Jesus is the root, is just a tree of men who are in the Kingdom of God.

Paul is just saying to some of those men who have entered into the Kingdom of God, not to be high minded of other men who were cutoff, because that group of other men, from Israel, were supposed to have been the ones originally to enter the Kingdom of God - but refused Jesus, the root, by which all men in the tree have eternal life.

BaB2, you are not a Jew. There is no reason for you to become a Jew. Be happy for the Jews when they receive Jesus and are men in the Kingdom of God like you.
 
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jgr

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I finally got it posted.

Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.
Thanks.

As I anticipated, there is not one instance where Irenaeus uses the expression "the righteous" to mean anything other than "all the righteous". Thus, in his commentary, "...the last contest of the righteous..." does not refer only to tribulation believers, but rather to all believers i.e. the Church, and thus refers to the Church experiencing the tribulation in its entirety, i.e. "the last contest". There is no contest if the Church is raptured before it competes.

Irenaeus was no pretribber.
 
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