Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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1stcenturylady

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John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

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There is no "guarantee", because of free will (Luke 13:3).

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John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

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Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the original Greek Textus Receptus, and in the KJV, the latter half of this verse states the condition for the first half. If the latter half is not done, then the first half does not apply, as other verses also make clear (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29).

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Not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, Paul would not have asked the question in Acts 19:2a.

Also, His question in Acts 19:2 relates to how Christians are to be water baptized (Matthew 28:19). That is, if the people whom the apostle Paul was speaking to in Acts 19:1-6 had been Christian water-baptized, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. But they said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Therefore, they needed to be Christian water-baptized, as in Acts 19:5.

Also, Christian water-baptism does not automatically impart Holy Spirit baptism. That is why the apostle Paul had to lay his hands on the people in Acts 19:6 for them to receive Holy Spirit baptism, even after they had been Christian water-baptized in Acts 19:5.

Note that this was also the case in Acts 8:15-17. That is, the Samaritan Christians got Christian water-baptized first. And then sometime later they got Holy Spirit baptized, through the laying on of hands.

I agree with everything.

Though on the last part I would add, now it is not necessary that hands be laid on someone to receive the Holy Spirit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Well, why have you been responding to my posts? If you plan to respond, please at least read before posting.
LOL There are 129 pages, dude! I'm responding now, but reading all your posts up to here is not my life work.
I wasn't referring to 129 pages. I was referring to when you first responded a a post of mine.

Read the previous verse. John 10:27. The key is who FOLLOW me. These are obedient and do not sin.
The key to what? Never perishing? I suggest remedial English class. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

Let's review v28.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish".

The red words state the CAUSE for possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ, who gives it.

The blue words state the EFFECT of possessing eternal life; never perishing.

This is real simple. Those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, when does Jesus give eternal life? He answers this question in John 5:24 and 6:47
5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

What is clear from these verses is that those who believe possesses eternal life. Because Jesus gave it to them. This also means believers possess eternal life from the MOMENT they believe. There is no time gap between initial belief and reception of eternal life.

Or there would be verses to that effect. And there are none.

Also these verses say the same thing:
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [note the tense here]
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But aren't you the one who believes Romans 7 is describing the Christian journey, rather than the journey of those under the law?
Was Paul under the law when he wrote that? Ridiculous idea. Just note the tense Paul used throughout that chapter; PRESENT TENSE. He was describing the struggles of the Christian life.

The fact that you either don't believe or understand this is demonstrative of your misunderstanding of much of Scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
I asked a very simple task of you. Of the 4 commands, which one or ones are about being IN fellowship and which one or ones are about being OUT of fellowship?
1 John 1:6 is about a non-believer.
Please fix your broken record player. I asked about 4 commands that Paul gave regarding the Holy Spirit, and all you can do is repeat 1 Jn 1:6.

You keep showing your misunderstanding of Scripture. And of fellowship. Sad.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Wrong again. The believer's "own power" is nothing other than one's will power, and associated with their sinful nature. Good luck with that.
This had nothing to do with will power. ROFL
You're the one who mentioned "one's own power". I simply noted what that means, which is will power. That's all you got, apart from the Holy Spirit. But since you don't even understand how the 4 commands from Paul regarding the Holy Spirit, I don't expect you to understand the difference between one's will power and the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Acts 4:33 is a clear reference to the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Remember, by Acts 4 the apostles had been given the Holy Spirit. They weren't powering themselves, as you erroneously opine.
They, indeed, were the same people who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, and received an additional filling, as we can also.
What you still don't understand is that being filled with the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and is all dependent upon which of the 4 commands from Paul are being obeyed.

BTW, your sarcasm doesn't help, but only shows lack of the fruit of the Spirit.
You can take my posts anyway you want, but all I'm doing is pointing out your many errors regarding Scripture.

Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Your views are NOT "sound in the faith". Very unsound, actually.

Esp your comment about God communicating with you directly. A dead giveaway of false teaching.

Maybe that is why you are not understanding my posts, as you respond with obvious unclarity as to what I said.
Again, you misunderstand. I understand your posts quite well, which is why my responses are REFUTATIONS of your posts.

If I didn't understand them, how could I refute them?
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.
You have a right to your opinion, even to the powerless Cessationist heresy.
You have a right to your unbiblical and heretical opinions.

But, my prayers are answered 100% of the time. Are yours?
Sure yours are.

1 John 3:22
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
Here's the whole point. Only as long as one is obeying what these verses say, will they be fulfilled.

However, your claims are refuted soundly by 1 John 1:8,10 and 2:1.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

And, of course, the struggle of the Christian life according to Paul in Romans 6 and 7.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.
Many will fall away in the last days due to apostacy. This is the church age of Laodecia, the lukewarm fellowship of unbelievers.
True.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
I pray in accordanc to James 1:5 daily.

What I teach is the original doctrine of the apostles, not the watered down version of the apostates.
If that were really true, you would NOT have claimed direct communication with God.

We have God's completed message to mankind in Scripture.

I suggest you ask God, and be open to what He reveals.
As I just said, I do that every day. But you seem quite unopened to the truth of Scripture.

You've shown no understanding of the 4 commands by Paul regarding the Holy Spirit, which are BASIC to the Christian life.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Faith plus works for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).
First, James 2:24 doesn't say anything close to your claim.

Second, James was speaking of justification in the eyes of others, based on the believer's deeds. The whole point of ch 2.

Those who are hypocrites are NOT justified in the eyes of others. Those who are consistent and live by the principles of their faith by their actions (deeds) will be justified in the eyes of others.

The NT has a lot to say about God's and man's perspective.

Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.
 
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FreeGrace2

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John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand
Not at all. There is no "so long as" or "if" condition in that or any other verse in the immediate context. So your claim is just a pretext. Or a con. But there is no context that supports your claim.

and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand.
Again, incorrect. The verse does NOT say "no one outside of the Christian". What it DOES say is "no one". This means "no person" obviously. And guess what! The believer is a PERSON. So Jesus was including the believer him/herself in His statement.

And I would add that "no one" even includes angelic beings. And all this aligns perfectly with Rom 8-
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

These 2 verses REMOVE any possibility of even believers themselves from being removed from God's hand.

But those who simply reject eternal security will refuse to see the truth here.

But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand
No one suggests that. In truth, the believer is SECURE in God's hand. That's the message of Jesus in Jn 10:28.

that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy
How come you can't see the impossibility of this scenario (jumping out of God's hand)? Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.
 
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1stcenturylady

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FreeGrace2 said:
Well, why have you been responding to my posts? If you plan to respond, please at least read before posting.

I wasn't referring to 129 pages. I was referring to when you first responded a a post of mine.


The key to what? Never perishing? I suggest remedial English class. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

Let's review v28.

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish".

The red words state the CAUSE for possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ, who gives it.

The blue words state the EFFECT of possessing eternal life; never perishing.

This is real simple. Those Jesus gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, when does Jesus give eternal life? He answers this question in John 5:24 and 6:47
5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

What is clear from these verses is that those who believe possesses eternal life. Because Jesus gave it to them. This also means believers possess eternal life from the MOMENT they believe. There is no time gap between initial belief and reception of eternal life.

Or there would be verses to that effect. And there are none.

Also these verses say the same thing:
1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [note the tense here]
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


Was Paul under the law when he wrote that? Ridiculous idea. Just note the tense Paul used throughout that chapter; PRESENT TENSE. He was describing the struggles of the Christian life.

The fact that you either don't believe or understand this is demonstrative of your misunderstanding of much of Scripture.
The key to what? Never perishing? I suggest remedial English class. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

So, are you a Universalist? That would explain a lot. Just kidding.

You must do more than BELIEVE. Even the demons believe and tremble. You must also FOLLOW Jesus as I pointed to in the previous verse to yours. CONTEXT! That means obey. If you don't obey, but continue in sin you WILL perish, for you are trampling on the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of Grace.
 
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1stcenturylady

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FreeGrace2 said:
I asked a very simple task of you. Of the 4 commands, which one or ones are about being IN fellowship and which one or ones are about being OUT of fellowship?

Please fix your broken record player. I asked about 4 commands that Paul gave regarding the Holy Spirit, and all you can do is repeat 1 Jn 1:6.

You keep showing your misunderstanding of Scripture. And of fellowship. Sad.

Fellowship?
 
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1stcenturylady

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FreeGrace2 said:
Acts 4:33 is a clear reference to the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Remember, by Acts 4 the apostles had been given the Holy Spirit. They weren't powering themselves, as you erroneously opine.

What you still don't understand is that being filled with the Holy Spirit comes and goes, and is all dependent upon which of the 4 commands from Paul are being obeyed.


You can take my posts anyway you want, but all I'm doing is pointing out your many errors regarding Scripture.

Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Your views are NOT "sound in the faith". Very unsound, actually.

Esp your comment about God communicating with you directly. A dead giveaway of false teaching.


Again, you misunderstand. I understand your posts quite well, which is why my responses are REFUTATIONS of your posts.

If I didn't understand them, how could I refute them?

I'm sorry if you don't have one of the gifts of God to communicate with God directly. They are great! But, you don't seem to believe they exist for us. Sad.
 
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1stcenturylady

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owever, your claims are refuted soundly by 1 John 1:8,10 and 2:1.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1 John 2:1 - My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

And, of course, the struggle of the Christian life according to Paul in Romans 6 and 7.

This is where your understanding of Scripture utterly fails. And by not understanding these crucial verses, you don't understand the gospel and could slide down to the pit. I've shown you the truth of these verses, thus you are on your own.
 
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1stcenturylady

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FreeGrace2 said:
Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.

True.


I pray in accordanc to James 1:5 daily.


If that were really true, you would NOT have claimed direct communication with God.

We have God's completed message to mankind in Scripture.


As I just said, I do that every day. But you seem quite unopened to the truth of Scripture.

You've shown no understanding of the 4 commands by Paul regarding the Holy Spirit, which are BASIC to the Christian life.
I pray in accordanc to James 1:5 daily.

You may pray verse 5 daily, but you won't receive. You've said it yourself you don't expect God to speak to you. Thus you are like verse 6. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
 
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If that were really true, you would NOT have claimed direct communication with God.

We have God's completed message to mankind in Scripture.

I've asked God what HE means in His word, not what anyone else says it means, and He tells me, and, yes, He explains. This is where you and I differ. You believe what YOU want it to say with a very carnal, fallible understanding. I went to the Source, not thinking I'm better than the Source and His apostles, who wrote down His words.
 
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So, when does a person have the indwelling holy Spirit?

Now? When we truly repent of all sin. That means turn away from all sin. Have you, or do you wallow in your sin?
 
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FreeGrace2

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So, are you a Universalist?
Nope.

You must do more than BELIEVE.
Nope. Please study these verses on the basis of salvation/eternal life.

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, how many verses that that there is more than believing in salvation? None.

Even the demons believe and tremble.
This just fails comprehension of James 2:19. What they believe isn't in Christ as Savior who died for them (because He didn't), but that they believe (know) that God is One. They tremble because they know they are under His judgment for their rebellion.

You must also FOLLOW Jesus as I pointed to in the previous verse to yours.
There are NO verses that say we must follow Jesus to be saved, or to have eternal life.

Please review the 24 verses i just shared.

CONTEXT! That means obey. If you don't obey, but continue in sin you WILL perish, for you are trampling on the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of Grace.
So, which verse says what you opine? None.

If your opinion was true, then Jesus wasn't telling the truth in John 10:28.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
I asked a very simple task of you. Of the 4 commands, which one or ones are about being IN fellowship and which one or ones are about being OUT of fellowship?

Please fix your broken record player. I asked about 4 commands that Paul gave regarding the Holy Spirit, and all you can do is repeat 1 Jn 1:6.

You keep showing your misunderstanding of Scripture. And of fellowship. Sad.
Fellowship?
Exactly! Just what I thought. You have no idea.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'm sorry if you don't have one of the gifts of God to communicate with God directly. They are great! But, you don't seem to believe they exist for us. Sad.
No, what's sad is anyone who makes the claim that God communicates with them directly.

Boy does that cover a whole host of false doctrines. Anyone can claim anything. Only those claims that are clearly stated in Scripture is what counts.
 
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