Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

Choose Wisely · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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Thank you for proving my point.

There are first fruits of the church as you have shown. That guarantees that there will be a harvest of the church. This will be a pretrib harvest of the church at the trump of God, likely on the Feast of Pentecost......a harvest feast. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

Then there will be 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. This will be the time when God turns his attention to His chosen people scattered through out the world. They will be regrafted just like it is proclaimed in the WORD. This harvest will occur on the Feast of Trumpets at the last trump.....immediately after the tribulation of those days. It will be like the days of Lot when destruction occurs the very day Lot leaves Sodom.

Then the remnant of Israel will be protected when the wrath of God occurs on the earth.

Again........Thank you for proving my point.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Not according to Scripture.

Hebrews 9:15-18
[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[16] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Jesus Christ did not confirm a covenant by being baptism and started his earthly ministry. It is when he DIED. It is like your will for your family. It will not become a force until you died first.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk_11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
(Did He cast out devils before Calvary?)

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TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
Oh, I get it. Currently the 12 tribes have not accepted the Jesus the Christ as their savior. After the church is raptured pretrib there will be exactly 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest....just like it says. We don't need to make anything up, we merely need to take God at His WORD.

There will be 144,000 headcounts of the tribes of Israel after church will be raptured out? Not going to happen. The 144,000 spiritually represents ALL the children of the spiritual tribes of Israel which John saw the great multitudes as a result! Not 144,000 literal men cherry-picked by God on earth!

TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Listen, do you understand how Christ confirm the covenant? Tell me how? Show me the verse.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ephesians 2:6

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

When the apostles were regenerated, born again from above, they were raised up in Christ to sit and rule with Him on His throne in heaven. When Jesus Christ ascended to the throne of David to rule the kingdom, this fulfilled the prophesy of the restoration of the Kingdom of David, and Christ sitting on that throne of Glory. As is clearly illustrated also in Acts:

Acts 2:29-31

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

The Prophesy did not speak of an earthly reign on the throne of David, but spoke of the resurrection of Christ to sit in on His throne in heaven, and the apostles as being raised up with Him to also sit in heavenly places. The gathering of 'the remnant' of the tribes of Israel. The Old Testament restoring of the twelve tribes to the land of their fathers was the "type" not the "anti-type," and Cyrus fulfilled this. The Restoration of the Kingdom of God which the Apostles asked about, was accomplished in Christ being the seed of David who reconciled the dispersed to God in one body, "one Israel," one stick, united by the Lion of the tribe of Judah. This was accomplished by His death, resurrection, and ascension to the throne. The regeneration has the 12 sit to rule with Christ. And this anti-type of the preceding type is made clear in such verses as Matthew chapter 15:

Matthew 15:24

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

A very open testimony to the fulfillment of scripture in this Messiah, that He came to fulfill the prophesy of restoring the Kingdom of Israel. Not in literal Israelites lost in some foreign land, but a Spiritual Israel lost and being brought home. This is what the lost northern tribes merely prefigured. Some of them 'cut off,' but a remnant returning. This also seen in the angel speaking to Mary of His purpose and His reign.

Luke 1:31-33

"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Just as Acts 2 said that this prophesy spake of the resurrection of Christ ascending into Heaven to sit on the throne of David. And note, the reign is not a 1000 year earthly reign, but was prophesied to be a reign that lasts forever over the house of Jacob. Only a reign in spiritual regeneration, Glory unto the throne of God, qualifies. This is the 'only' kingdom of which there shall be no end. The fulfillment of the prophecy of the restoration of Israel.

One may ask why the tribes are so important? It is because without knowledge of who they were, and how some were cut off while others returning (a remnant only), and of how the Temple is built again, and how the nation is restored as one people, etc., etc. We do not really understand the anti-type in Christ where the lost sheep of the house of Israel (a remnant only) return, the Temple is rebuilt in Him, and God's true Kingdom restored.

A good question was "Were the tribes present in Israel when Jesus Came?" Because according to biblical prophecy, the return of the lost tribes of Israel signals the coming of the Messianic Kingdom. And when Christ came, he restored Israel by freeing the captivity from spiritual Babylon, and brought the lost sheep of Israel home. For this anti-type to take place (Matthew 12:29), the type had to have taken place (Jeremiah 50:4-6). The lost of Israel had to be delivered from bondage and restored.

Matthew 15:24-28

"But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."

Was Jesus Looking all over the world for a lost race of Jews? Was He saying He came but for the house of Britain, of the house of Japan, or but for the house of Ethiopia? No, it is quite obvious that the lost of Israel are not another particular group or nation, they were right there in that Jewish nation. Others were considered dogs and swine in the Biblical vernacular. Yes, they eat of the crumbs off the masters table, but Israel was of the Jews. Christ came to the Jew first, and then to the Gentiles which you were telling us all along. That's also not an insignificant doctrine.

Matthew 10:5-7

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."

So then, how are the tribes of Israel lost, when God identifies the lost as the people of that nation? They were lost in that they were separated from God, 'not' that they were a people who were not yet accounted for. He has come to restore the Kingdom to the lost sheep of Israel, not to Gentiles and not the dispersed in Samaria, but it's plain Christ is addressing the Jews, and when Christ established the New Covenant Church, He brought that promise to it's fulfillment. Jesus Christ came into the world to redeem Israel and bring the restoration of the Kingdom, and that is precisely what He did.

Luke 1:68-69

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he hath visited and redeemed his people. There is no distinction anymore. When the remnant from those 10 tribes returned with the remnant of Judah with Ezra they continued as the nation, and we see that there is not again that distinction. Judea and Jews have become totally synonymous with Israel. This could not be true if God wanted Israel different from Jews. The terms are used inter-changeably, as Jesus plainly illustrates all through His ministry.

Choose Wisely · Jun 11, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
There will be 144,000 headcounts of the tribes of Israel after church will be raptured out? Not going to happen. The 144,000 spiritually represents ALL the children of the spiritual tribes of Israel which John saw the great multitudes as a result! Not 144,000 literal men cherry-picked by God on earth!

The 144000 are firstfruits. You probably need to do a study on what firstfruits are. In the meantime you can make up anything you want. I prefer to stick with what the WORD says........exactly what it says.

It's easy to see why you are so confused....constantly deciding what everything means and spiritualizing everything. Maybe you should try taking God at his WORD. He's going to do exactly what he says.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Listen, do you understand how Christ confirm the covenant? Tell me how? Show me the verse.

John 19:30

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Are you saying that the Gospel was not preached first to the Jews for a period of about 3 1/2 years during the earthly ministry of Christ, based on Matthew 10:5-7.

Based on Galatians 1:14-18, are you saying that Paul was not mainly sent to the Gentiles?

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Simeon had accepted the baby Jesus as his Messiah long before Calvary.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

TribulationSigns · Jun 12, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The 144000 are firstfruits. You probably need to do a study on what firstfruits are. In the meantime you can make up anything you want. I prefer to stick with what the WORD says........exactly what it says.

You prefer to stick with the Word? Really, haven't you read the following Scripture?

Revelation 14:1-4
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

But exactly who are the firstfruits? Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I am one of the firstfruits in my own order! Therefore, I am one of 144,000 in case you did not know!

It's easy to see why you are so confused

It is you who is confused because you have not quoted Scirpture for reproof like I have.

TribulationSigns · Jun 12, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Are you saying that the Gospel was not preached first to the Jews for a period of about 3 1/2 years during the earthly ministry of Christ, based on Matthew 10:5-7.

Answer my questions which you appear to stonewall me.

Do you understand how Christ confirmed the covenant? Tell me how? Show me the verse.

I already show you with verses in Hebrews explaining how the covenant (testament) can be confirmed!

Simeon had accepted the baby Jesus as his Messiah long before Calvary.

Click to expand...

So? This is not how covenant was confirmed.

Dan 9:27a
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

How did Jesus confirm a covenant exactly according to Scripture? It is not when he was presented to Simeon as a baby. It was not when Christ's Gospel was preached to the Jews before His death for his death was a REQUIREMENT in order to confirm a covenant.

seventysevens · Jun 12, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
There will be 144,000 headcounts of the tribes of Israel after church will be raptured out? Not going to happen. The 144,000 spiritually represents ALL the children of the spiritual tribes of Israel which John saw the great multitudes as a result! Not 144,000 literal men cherry-picked by God on earth!

Right after I eat this spiritual apple

n2thelight · Jun 12, 2018

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

What part of after the tribulation don't you all get?

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Do you understand how Christ confirmed the covenant? Tell me how? Show me the verse.

I already did.
It is John 19:30.
Which is Christ's final words on the Cross.
He had finished paying our sin debt, and then He died.

You are correct in the fact that Christ confirmed the New Covenant through His death.
The New Covenant was fulfilled by the Blood sacrifice Christ revealed at the Last Supper in Matthew 26:28.

However, you are ignoring the fact that based on Hebrews chapter 11, the Old Testament Saints were also saved through "faith" in the coming Messiah. He is the "seed" of the woman promised in Genesis 3:15.

Gal_3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Simeon is a part of the New Covenant, even though he died before Calvary.

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

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LastSeven · Jun 12, 2018

seventysevens said:
an internet forum is not the place to expect that people come here to get educated or to educate others

Really? I've actually learned a lot here, as I'm sure others have. I think this is a great place to learn.

seventysevens said:
If you really wanted to learn you would study the scripture, yea you say you do , but if you did you would know the topic

I think what you really mean is that if I studied the scriptures I would agree with you. Isn't that what you're really trying to say?

seventysevens · Jun 12, 2018

LastSeven said:
I've actually learned a lot here, as I'm sure others have. I think this is a great place to learn.

that is great if you have learned something :oldthumbsup:

LastSeven said:
I think what you really man is that if I studied the scriptures I would agree with you. Isn't that what you're really trying to say?

Nope , wrong again

If you studied like you were going for a PHD , you would put more effort and time into the details and get a better understanding than just agreeing with what seems to fit with your preferred view

Sound Doctrine · Jun 12, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
This is where I believe BaB2 is wrong about this. Peter has already brought the Gospel to the Gentiles under God's command, long before Paul even started his ministry, Acts 10:1-49, 11:1-18.

Nothing. Christ has already confirmed with his Blood at the Cross which what strengthen the Covenant. The final week is NOT 7 years but a symbolic period span from death to Christ's Second Coming which covers the New Testament period.

Regarding the 7-year period, it is not figurative or symbolic. Read from Matthew 24, and Daniel 9, which defines the 70 weeks, 69 of which have been completed per verse 25, as 483 years. Do the math: 7x70=490. Then 490-7=483. Remember this as you read Daniel 9.

Matthew 24:15-22 - "15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened."

Daniel 9:24-27 - "24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The weeks are of years, 7 years per week. So far, according to this prophecy, 483 weeks have been fulfilled, leaving 1 week of years left. Messiah did cut Himself off from Israel, and still has. The covenant that He shall confirm is the Abrahamic Covenant from Genesis. This will be confirmed during the remaining 7 years of terrible tribulation, such as has never been or ever will be, according to Matthew 24:21. Jesus' second coming is immediately after the tribulation, and there will be obvious signs, and the elect from the tribulation period shall be gathered up from all over the world: Matthew 24:29-31 - "29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Verse 31 is the post tribulation rapture of only those saints. The pre tribulation rapture of only saints has no signs given; in fact, Jesus says that no man knows when that will be but God Himself. At the second coming they will know almost to the hour if not to the hour when He comes again, this time to the earth, unlike the pre tribulation rapture, where the saints meet the Lord in the air, and ever be with the Lord.

Why must there be a pre tribulation rapture? Because of Matthew 24:22. If there were just one rapture and it be at the end of the tribulation, what days should be shortened for the elects' sake? He will have already come and the tribulation would have just ended. The elect from the resurrection of Christ up through present day to the rapture must occur before the tribulation for verse 22 to make any sense. The two raptures are distinctly different. The tribulation for the saints is not according to God's actions in the past, where when He had wrath on the wicked, He removed those saints from the target of the wrath; God did not make them go through it. Are you going to tell me that all living saints just prior to the tribulation will have to endure the worst wrath God ever had in all of creation? If that happens, I'll change my view, but I won't change it unless you can prove I'm wrong according to the Scriptures. I don't want to read or watch something some so-and-so said. I am not interested in private interpretations. Doctrines must make sense when the Scriptures cause them to make sense when rightly divided. The Daniel prophecy is what I stand on for the 7 remaining years, which will be the tribulation. It jives with Matthew 24. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 also jives with Matthew 24. The rapture is not either at one end or the other, but there are two raptures, one at each end of the tribulation of 7 years, yes, 7 years.

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
Why must there be a pre tribulation rapture? Because of Matthew 24:22. If there were just one rapture and it be at the end of the tribulation, what days should be shortened for the elects' sake? He will have already come and the tribulation would have just ended. The elect from the resurrection of Christ up through present day to the rapture must occur before the tribulation for verse 22 to make any sense. The two raptures are distinctly different. The tribulation for the saints is not according to God's actions in the past, where when He had wrath on the wicked, He removed those saints from the target of the wrath; God did not make them go through it. Are you going to tell me that all living saints just prior to the tribulation will have to endure the worst wrath God ever had in all of creation? If that happens, I'll change my view, but I won't change it unless you can prove I'm wrong according to the Scriptures. I don't want to read or watch something some so-and-so said. I am not interested in private interpretations. Doctrines must make sense when the Scriptures cause them to make sense when rightly divided. The Daniel prophecy is what I stand on for the 7 remaining years, which will be the tribulation. It jives with Matthew 24. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 also jives with Matthew 24. The rapture is not either at one end or the other, but there are two raptures, one at each end of the tribulation of 7 years, yes, 7 years.

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)

Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　

Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)

Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　

Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)

Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)

Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　

Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　

Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　

Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)

Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

The Coming of the Son of Man

Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　

Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　

Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.

The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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Sound Doctrine · Jun 12, 2018

BABerean2: I see you reposted many Scriptures I already posted, and show that they are in large part in Luke. This is helpful, as I forgot what other Gospel the end times were explained in. Luke's Gospel doesn't change my view, as it is much like Matthew 24. You do not address the Scriptures I gave from Daniel 9 or Matthew 24 or 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as to where I am in error. You do not show that I misunderstand these Scriptures by showing me rightly divided Scripture proving I am wrong. You also posted Josephus, who may have been a great scholar, but as I said before, I am not interested in anything but what God has to say, and that if one disagrees with what I get from the Scriptures, first deal with the Scriptures I presented before expanding into ones you want to show.

Did you know that they have already started construction of a new temple in Jerusalem? When it is finished, this will be the temple where the Desolation of Abomination shall stand and declare himself god. The destroyed one of 70 AD did not have the beast doing this because it was of the wrong time for him. Otherwise, we would be past the tribulation, the 1000-year reign of Christ on earth, past the short rebellion of Satan, past God throwing all the wicked into the lake of fire, and saints would now be living on a new earth under a new universe. Since this has not happened yet, I don't want to hear anymore regarding the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

One more observation: You forgot to mention how that after Jesus describes the tribulation, for the very elects' sakes those days shall be shortened. Why did you skip this verse? I know it is in Luke, and I presented it from Matthew 24.

seventysevens · Jun 12, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
BABerean2: I see you reposted many Scriptures I already posted, and show that they are in large part in Luke. This is helpful, as I forgot what other Gospel the end times were explained in. Luke's Gospel doesn't change my view, as it is much like Matthew 24. You do not address the Scriptures I gave from Daniel 9 or Matthew 24 or 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as to where I am in error. You do not show that I misunderstand these Scriptures by showing me rightly divided Scripture proving I am wrong. You also posted Josephus, who may have been a great scholar, but as I said before, I am not interested in anything but what God has to say, and that if one disagrees with what I get from the Scriptures, first deal with the Scriptures I presented before expanding into ones you want to show.

Did you know that they have already started construction of a new temple in Jerusalem? When it is finished, this will be the temple where the Desolation of Abomination shall stand and declare himself god. The destroyed one of 70 AD did not have the beast doing this because it was of the wrong time for him. Otherwise, we would be past the tribulation, the 1000-year reign of Christ on earth, past the short rebellion of Satan, past God throwing all the wicked into the lake of fire, and saints would now be living on a new earth under a new universe. Since this has not happened yet, I don't want to hear anymore regarding the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

One more observation: You forgot to mention how that after Jesus describes the tribulation, for the very elects' sakes those days shall be shortened. Why did you skip this verse? I know it is in Luke, and I presented it from Matthew 24.

Everything Bab2 believes in pertaining to prophecy is fixated on 70 AD , which is why he refuses correct bible understanding
Welcome to the forum :oldthumbsup:

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
BABerean2: I see you reposted many Scriptures I already posted, and show that they are in large part in Luke. This is helpful, as I forgot what other Gospel the end times were explained in. Luke's Gospel doesn't change my view, as it is much like Matthew 24. You do not address the Scriptures I gave from Daniel 9 or Matthew 24 or 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as to where I am in error. You do not show that I misunderstand these Scriptures by showing me rightly divided Scripture proving I am wrong. You also posted Josephus, who may have been a great scholar, but as I said before, I am not interested in anything but what God has to say, and that if one disagrees with what I get from the Scriptures, first deal with the Scriptures I presented before expanding into ones you want to show.

Did you know that they have already started construction of a new temple in Jerusalem? When it is finished, this will be the temple where the Desolation of Abomination shall stand and declare himself god. The destroyed one of 70 AD did not have the beast doing this because it was of the wrong time for him. Otherwise, we would be past the tribulation, the 1000-year reign of Christ on earth, past the short rebellion of Satan, past God throwing all the wicked into the lake of fire, and saints would now be living on a new earth under a new universe. Since this has not happened yet, I don't want to hear anymore regarding the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

One more observation: You forgot to mention how that after Jesus describes the tribulation, for the very elects' sakes those days shall be shortened. Why did you skip this verse? I know it is in Luke, and I presented it from Matthew 24.

Sometimes it is extremely difficult to address every point or scriptural reference in a post.
You should not expect any of us to address each point for you, in every post.

Let us go back to Daniel chapter 9.

The New Covenant had already been promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, before the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel.

Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the passage.
We find that verse fulfilled by Christ during the first century in the text below.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (From the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the Messiah who would fulfill the New Covenant and then Gabriel did not even mention the New Covenant?

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.
That would mean the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

The same interpretation is found in the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

There is no singular antecedent for an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9, and there was no "gap" of time mentioned by the angel Gabriel.

Christ was "cut off" after the 69th week.
If I agree to paint your house after 69 weeks, it will not be painted until the 70th week or later.

.

Choose Wisely · Jun 12, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
You prefer to stick with the Word? Really, haven't you read the following Scripture?

Revelation 14:1-4
[1] And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
[2] And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

But exactly who are the firstfruits? Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:20-23
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I am one of the firstfruits in my own order! Therefore, I am one of 144,000 in case you did not know!

It is you who is confused because you have not quoted Scirpture for reproof like I have.

So you are one of the 144,000? That tells me you are a virgin.....correct? And which of the 12 tribes are you from?

It's pretty obvious you do not understand first fruits and the guaranteed harvest to follow. The first fruits in Rev 14 are of the twelve tribes.........therefore the harvest after the tribulation will be of the 12 tribes. As BaBerean2 was kind enough to show, the first harvest will be the church...........that harvest will be pre trib.

Douggg · Jun 12, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
[3] And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
[4] These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

It is just saying that the 144,000 of the twelve tribes, are the first of the Jews to be saved, heading into the Day of the Lord. The hard times at the beginning of the Day of the Lord are likened to the delivery pains of a woman.

The end times picture for which the Jews will become Christians is in Isaiah 66:8. The nation born in a single day. And Zion delivering her children as soon as the pain comes, when the Day of the Lord begins. But before all this travailing begins, 2000 years ago, she delivered a man child, Jesus.

Isaiah 66:
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

It is giving you the entire sequence. And it is repeated in Revelation 12. Jesus in the first five verses.

Then two thousand years to verse 12:6

The first half of the seven years in 12:6; which near the end, their thought-to-be messiah betrays them, and they turn to Jesus, and flee to the mountains. Some don't flee in time, and are trapped in Jerusalem for the second half of the seven years, and are in Revelation 12:17.

Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

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