Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

Biblewriter · Jun 11, 2018

Davy said:
As usual, the pre-trib deceivers make false assumptions about old writings, and in doing that attempt to Revise the original context of what was written:

Quote from Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter 29, Paragraph 1:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Notice the part in red which Irenaeus wrote, which Biblewriter left out. It is pointing to the righteous (i.e., the Church) going through this "last contest", and by overcoming it they will be crowned with incorruption.

That is NOT a pre-trib rapture doctrine. That is a post-tribulational doctrine by Irenaeus.

You are simply ASSUMING that by “the righteous,” Irenaeus meant “the church.” I have demonstrated that Irsnaeus made a distinct and systematic change in the terms he used before and after he placed the rapture. This term, “the righteous” is not only used in scripture in regard to “the church.”

Biblewriter · Jun 11, 2018

Davy said:
The OT Scriptures (like Zechariah 9:9-10) declare only 2 advents of Christ. The first advent was to offer Himself upon the cross. The 2nd advent is His return to this earth with His elect according Zech.14, and Acts 1. There is no... other coming in between those 2. For a pre-trib rapture to be true, there must be a separate coming in between those 2 advents. There is no such idea written in God's Word.

Actually, the Old Testament never, even once, said that the great promised Messiah would come more than just once. But it contained priphecies that contained mutually exclusive details. The New Testament did the same. It never said that Jesus would return more than once. But it contained prophecies containing mutually exclusive details.

keras · Jun 11, 2018

seventysevens said:
Just because you do not understand it simply shows that you don't understand it , The Lord has purpose for the Jews , IF the 144000 were not Jews Jesus would not have identified 12000 from the 12 tribes , just because you have no idea who they are does not mean God does not know . You so focused on what ,men's altered teachings that you do not trust God that He knows what He is doing
you have been shown your error and misinterpretation of scripture so many times it be pointless to accept anything you say

But you don't accept what scripture says!
Re the 144,000; how can they be all Jewish? Only 2 of the 12 tribes belong to the House of Judah.

I know very well what God is and will be doing. For sure; it isn't a rapture removal of His Christian people, Jews and Gentiles. We have His Commission to fulfil, I suggest you do what you can toward promoting the Gospel and just let the end times take their course.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
Why do you constantly promote the Two Peoples Two Promises, doctrine?

What I promote is the church is not Israel. I promote that gentiles are not jews.

gentiles is a blanket term that cover all nations except of Israel. So there are people from all nations in the church including including from Israel.

keras · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
What I promote is the church is not Israel. I promote that gentiles are not jews.

gentiles is a blanket term that cover all nations except of Israel. So there are people from all nations in the church including including from Israel.

Sure, people retain their ethnicity and the Jewish State of Israel is a separate entity from the established Church.
But what the Bible teaches; in God's sight, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, only born again believers and all the rest of the worlds people. Paul's great teaching in Ephesians 2:11-18, makes any separation such as you like to make, completely unbiblical and just a false idea, made to support a false doctrine.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
But what the Bible teaches; in God's sight, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, only born again believers and all the rest of the worlds people.

What the bible teaches is "in Christ" there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

Not "in God's sight".

Jews and Gentiles are designations pertinent to either being of the nation of Israel, or of the other nations.

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
Q, I am not talking about whether the post trib rapture view is wrong. I believe it is.

I am asking you strictly in the 1Thessalonians4:16-17 event, about the resurrection of Christians in verse 16, the dead in Christ. Do you not believe that resurrection takes place at nearly the same time, the rapture of the living Christians are takened ?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

From your above mremarks, you did not read my post thoroughly, or...you did not understand where I was coming from. I suggest you review it again.

Quasar92

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

Quasar92 said:
From your above mremarks, you did not read my post thoroughly, or...you did not understand where I was coming from. I suggest you review it again.

Quasar92

Q, I did not understand what you wrote, true. That's why I ask you my questions. You were confusing.

Therefore, I am asking you strictly in the 1Thessalonians4:16-17 event, about the resurrection of Christians in verse 16, the dead in Christ.

Do you not believe that resurrection takes place at nearly the same time, the rapture of the living Christians are takened ? Or are you claiming that the dead in Christ shall rise first - is not a resurrection?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
But you don't accept what scripture says!
Re the 144,000; how can they be all Jewish? Only 2 of the 12 tribes belong to the House of Judah.

Actually if you talk to a Jew (Judaism), in their tradition a person is a Jew if their mother is a Jew, and the tribal affiliation is from the father's side.

I think part of that tradition about what tribe, comes from back in the exodus as they were to camp and march, they were told to group themselves according to their fathers.

And the part about the mothers, whether they are a Jew or not, goes back to Nemiah's day when he shamed the caretakers Jews in Jerusalem holdovers from the Babylonian captivity, into sending away their foreign wives and children the had by them (i.e. non Jewish mothers). He cited they were doing the same sin as Solomon, which his foreign wives brought all the idols into the land.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
What I promote is the church is not Israel.

Then what you are promoting ignores Acts 2:36, and Romans 11:1, and Galatians 6:15-16, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3.

.

keras · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
Jews and Gentiles are designations pertinent to either being of the nation of Israel, or of the other nations.

Which is of absolutely no consequence to a persons salvation.
I often have to quote the list given of where the holy people of God come from: People from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9
You, however, have your own idea of who God's people might be. Note that the citizens of the State of Israel and those who call themselves Jews around the world, do not have any real proof of their descent from Abraham. There is much evidence of other origins for the Jewish people.
Paul plainly tells us what and who a real Jew is. Romans 2:26

As for the apostate, atheistic, LGBT, etc, peoples of Israel today, prophecy tells us of their fate. Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, +

Douggg · Jun 12, 2018

keras said:
Which is of absolutely no consequence to a persons salvation.

Of course, it's not. Who is making that claim?

You, however, have your own idea of who God's people might be

I have no idea why you making an accusation of me saying "God's people". Here's is my challenge for you. I have over 10,000 posts here - find one which I use the term "God's people".

The "God's people" rhetoric is coming from you, Bab2, and others of similar mindset who hold you guys' the Church is Israel view. You guys are making some point - when there is no point. I don't use the term.

seventysevens · Jun 12, 2018

keras said:
But you don't accept what scripture says!
Re the 144,000; how can they be all Jewish? Only 2 of the 12 tribes belong to the House of Judah.

I know very well what God is and will be doing. For sure; it isn't a rapture removal of His Christian people, Jews and Gentiles. We have His Commission to fulfil, I suggest you do what you can toward promoting the Gospel and just let the end times take their course.

You have such trouble, understanding , I simply acknowledge that A Holy God that is not biased and prejudice like you are, knows what he is doing and why he is doing it even when people do not understand it ,
God created everyone and everything , He knows people in the womb even before they are born - He knows every thought of every person , He knows the number of hairs on every head of every person , He created all life out of nothing.
I trust Him , that when He says something that He knows who people are and where they are , just as he has been gathering descendants of Israel back into the land of Israel for decades now
You should follow your own words and let God handle it and spread the gospel of Christ and stop criticizing people that have a better understanding than you

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

Douggg said:
The "God's people" rhetoric is coming from you, Bab2, and others of similar mindset who hold you guys' the Church is Israel view.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
(Who would "the twelve tribes" be?)

It is coming straight from God's Word found above.

Douggg · Jun 12, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

BaB2, are you providing this verse to me to show that Israel is "God's people"? Is it talking about you that God has not cast away?

Quasar92 · Jun 12, 2018

Posted in error. Please delete.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 12, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
(Who would "the twelve tribes" be?)

It is coming straight from God's Word found above.

Yes, as you have been shown before, Paul is an Israelite, but He was also a believer in Jesus Christ and commissioned as His Apostle to the Gentiles, a primary member of the body of Christ, the Church He founded. When are you going to understand, the Church IS NOT Israel?

Quasar92

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

Quasar92 said:
When are you going to understand, the Church IS NOT Israel?

When are you going to admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

And when are you going to quit posting things from others, instead of explaining the passages found above, all by yourself?

.

seventysevens · Jun 12, 2018

BABerean2 said:
When are you going to admit that the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century

.

It has not , it will not be fulfilled until Jesus has returned

BABerean2 · Jun 12, 2018

seventysevens said:
It has not , it will not be fulfilled until Jesus has returned

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

.

Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

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