Losing faith in "faith alone"

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NBB

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I believe something like this:
We must do things to get saved, at least we need to try and His grace will do the rest.
So Jesus saves you by grace by faith. And i think he doesn´t expect you to do things you can´t do in your current state. The thief on the cross only had to believe in Him to get saved.

Matthew 11:30
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

We need to at least repent when we sin, try to seek him, try to do things the correct way etc. something at least something we definitely need to do!.
 
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Don Maurer

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That is interpretation is sound, but why then mention Abraham? Who was he being justified before when when sacrificing Isaac? Why did he need to perform the 'work' to justify his faith? Couldn't God see Abraham's faith?
First, I want to express my agreement with apologetic warrior's post on page 10. I want to express some of my own statement also.

James mentions Abraham because Abraham is the perfect illustration of the claim to faith being justified or proven by works. I am still suggesting that the context goes back to verse 18. It is in verse 18 that I think the thesis of the passage is stated. "Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith."

in verses 21 - 24, James leaves the teaching part and seems to go for illustrations of the idea taught in verse 18. What better illustration than Abraham.

To answer your question more directly, of course God can see Abrahams faith, but I am not sure that is the point of verses 21-24. James is attempting to illustrate points to his reading audience, not God. So then, the question of verses 21 to 24 pertains to the reading audience. How can James illustrate to his reading audience the principle of verse 18.... "show me thy faith?" Again, what better illustration of the principle of verse 18 can be found anywhere in scripture than the life of Abraham.

In verse 21, Faith does not justify anything. In fact it is worth noting that faith is not even mentioned in verse 21. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works..." Now if this passage is about salvation, and not about a demonstration of a true faith, then justification is all about works in James. In this case, the heretic Pelagius had the right idea's. Then the biblical doctrine should be sola works. Of course I do not believe what I am saying in this paragraph is true, but it would be a logical reading if the passage is about a method of salvation. This is also going to happen in verse 25 with Rahab... "And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?"

The question of the context is about what justifies a man to say "I have faith." Of course, such a statement is justified by works alone. And because of the context, faith need not be mentioned in verse 21.

In verse 23, it reads "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."
This verse actually does have the sola fide, or faith alone concept. In this verse, imputation of righteousness is on the basis of faith, and there is no mention of works. Why no works here? Because this verse is about salvation, or justification by faith alone. James is here pointing out that Abraham was indeed a saved man on the basis of faith. Of course James has a topic, what kind of faith from verse 18. The kind of faith that saves, is not the base statement "I have faith." The whole point of this part of the chapter is that the statement "I have faith" is the faith of demons, it is the kind of faith that says, "be ye warmed and filled." The kind of faith that merely says "I have faith," is a faith without repentance. James is making it clear, that kind of faith does not save.


A little erudite humor?

So then, salvation is justification by faith alone...
Sola Fide
but faith is justified by works alone.
Sola Ergon!
----- The 6th sola!! : )

Don
 
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JesusYeshuaisLord

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

Hi, I found it a great help to study the bible in its original languages. Especially Hebrew is quite interesting because it's a really active language. For example when the bible says "Hear o israel". Hear is 'shema' in Hebrew which doesn't just mean hear, listen passively. It also relates to an action, hear is more hear and do. I think that faith is the same, faith requires trust and completion of trust requires actions.

If you were a 5 year old child standing on a big rock and your Dad was on the ground, 2 meters down. Your dad tells you "jump, I'll catch you. trust me" Your trust will require the action of actually jumping.

Salvation by faith works in the same way. It can't actually be disassociate into 2 different things. Also, Faith can be demonstrated with actions and inactions. We tend to think that to show my faith I need to go here and there or do this or that but sometimes we just need to wait for the Lord and trust that He will bring about a work for you to do. Do you get what I mean?

For Abraham, he and his wife were desperate for a son so they decided to force God's hand but in the end, after that, they did end up waiting on the Lord (14 years) to fulfill the promise (Isaac was born). That was not actions after actions like they did with Hagar, they simply went about their lives, following God in other ways.

I feel like a lot of times the Catholic church tries to force God's hand thinking that it would bring them righteousness, same for a lot of 'legalistic' groups.
Jesus' message was more, I will give you righteousness so then you will be able to practice it. If Jesus doesn't give you righteousness, you will never be able to do righteous things because the law of our sinful nature actually prevents us to do anything good. Even the good we do as unsaved people are filthy rags according to Isaiah. An unrighteous person cannot do righteous things at all. It is said in the bible that: Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, Judas was a thief, Peter was going to deny Jesus, Paul was a christian murderer. Only when Peter and Paul were transformed were they actually ABLE to do good works.

When you have accepted Jesus though, the works you will do will be called righteous because Jesus' work is in it. Jesus is actively doing it through you by the Holy Spirit.
I think that's mainly why some do not advise people to follow catholic doctrines because it give you a false sense of assurance in yourself. It diminishes the impact Jesus has on and in our lives.
 
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112358

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What your post lacks thus far is that God is sovereign. He is sovereign not only over His Creation as the uncreated Creator. He is also sovereign over Salvation.

What you did not mention was how God draws a sinner to Him in sorrow and repentance leading to salvation. God initiates our movement to Him.

Ezekiel 36: NASB
25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Notice the use of "I will" all come from YHWH.[/
If I neglected to specifically call to attention God's Sovereignty it was not intended. In fact I think that is exactly what I am trying to convey, that despite man's willfulness and resistance to God's will, God's will always prevails.

The difference between God's will for His children Israel and God's will for His children today, is that the plan then was not yet seen through to completion. He would not allow Israel's defiance to thwart the completion of the plan, thus in vs. 22: "I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord..."

Whereas today, the plan has been seen through to completion. Romans 6:10 Hebrews 7:27 Hebrews 9:12 Hebrews 10:10 Jude 1:3

Once for all. Done. That is God's Sovereignty. His will be done despite all else. Whether we call belief a "work" or not. Whether we take the Word for what is actually says or not. Obedience was not nailed to the cross. In fact the standard for obedience was raised to a new level in every respect.

And regarding John 3 and Nicodemus. What if Jesus meant exactly what Jesus said? What if the water associated with being born again is just that...water? Plain old water? Is that possible? Is there evidence to support the possibility? Is it conceivable that by water he did not mean amniotic fluid (which is not water, to be precise)?

Shall we explore that possibility, since we have already brought up the fact that Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved"? And there is quite the controversy over whether this verse refers to what is actually says as well?
 
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112358

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Hi, I found it a great help to study the bible in its original languages. Especially Hebrew is quite interesting because it's a really active language. For example when the bible says "Hear o israel". Hear is 'shema' in Hebrew which doesn't just mean hear, listen passively. It also relates to an action, hear is more hear and do. I think that faith is the same, faith requires trust and completion of trust requires actions.

If you were a 5 year old child standing on a big rock and your Dad was on the ground, 2 meters down. Your dad tells you "jump, I'll catch you. trust me" Your trust will require the action of actually jumping.

Salvation by faith works in the same way. It can't actually be disassociate into 2 different things. Also, Faith can be demonstrated with actions and inactions. We tend to think that to show my faith I need to go here and there or do this or that but sometimes we just need to wait for the Lord and trust that He will bring about a work for you to do. Do you get what I mean?

For Abraham, he and his wife were desperate for a son so they decided to force God's hand but in the end, after that, they did end up waiting on the Lord (14 years) to fulfill the promise (Isaac was born). That was not actions after actions like they did with Hagar, they simply went about their lives, following God in other ways.

I feel like a lot of times the Catholic church tries to force God's hand thinking that it would bring them righteousness, same for a lot of 'legalistic' groups.
Jesus' message was more, I will give you righteousness so then you will be able to practice it. If Jesus doesn't give you righteousness, you will never be able to do righteous things because the law of our sinful nature actually prevents us to do anything good. Even the good we do as unsaved people are filthy rags according to Isaiah. An unrighteous person cannot do righteous things at all. It is said in the bible that: Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, Judas was a thief, Peter was going to deny Jesus, Paul was a christian murderer. Only when Peter and Paul were transformed were they actually ABLE to do good works.

When you have accepted Jesus though, the works you will do will be called righteous because Jesus' work is in it. Jesus is actively doing it through you by the Holy Spirit.
I think that's mainly why some do not advise people to follow catholic doctrines because it give you a false sense of assurance in yourself. It diminishes the impact Jesus has on and in our lives.
I agree that real faith requires action. My original point was that even belief itself is something we DO. But it is not a zero sum game. We do not become suddenly incapable of sin when we become Christians. We become saved, yes. Marked and sealed, yes. Perfect in righteousness, no. That’s why He came to deliver us. Even the apostle Paul spoke (after becoming a Christian) of the war at work between his spirit and his flesh. Clearly he had not achieved perfection, and he was an apostle of Jesus Christ! So part of our eternal destiny (OUR part) lies in how we fight the war, whether we remain in the Light. Thus redleghunter’s observation: “Test yourselves...unless indeed you fail the test!”
 
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NBB

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I agree that real faith requires action. My original point was that even belief itself is something we DO. But it is not a zero sum game. We do not become suddenly incapable of sin when we become Christians. We become saved, yes. Marked and sealed, yes. Perfect in righteousness, no. That’s why He came to deliver us. Even the apostle Paul spoke (after becoming a Christian) of the war at work between his spirit and his flesh. Clearly he had not achieved perfection, and he was an apostle of Jesus Christ! So part of our eternal destiny (OUR part) lies in how we fight the war, whether we remain in the Light. Thus redleghunter’s observation: “Test yourselves...unless indeed you fail the test!”

I believe that even if we do not remain in the light, i think there is a lot of mercy of God, he is going to make sure you repent or something of the sorts. i don´t know how God is going to judge in that case but...
 
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JesusYeshuaisLord

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I agree that real faith requires action. My original point was that even belief itself is something we DO. But it is not a zero sum game. We do not become suddenly incapable of sin when we become Christians. We become saved, yes. Marked and sealed, yes. Perfect in righteousness, no. That’s why He came to deliver us. Even the apostle Paul spoke (after becoming a Christian) of the war at work between his spirit and his flesh. Clearly he had not achieved perfection, and he was an apostle of Jesus Christ! So part of our eternal destiny (OUR part) lies in how we fight the war, whether we remain in the Light. Thus redleghunter’s observation: “Test yourselves...unless indeed you fail the test!”

I hope I didn't say in anyway that we stop sinning but Jesus does cover us with His righteousness so we are then capable of righteous acts because He does them through us.
Yes the sinful nature is still there, I do agree totally with that (which is what I think you mean), but God still calls us righteous because He sees Christ when he looks at His elect.

It sounds more like the test is regarding whether you have been called or not though, not the righteousness of God imputed to us. The test is what distinguishes who was called and who wasn't. Who are doing dead works and who are doing living works.

If one is called, one will eventually act in accordance to God even though there are still some 'sin' in his/her life. We are only glorified (no sinful nature) in the new eternal body (Jesus' return). Now at which point is it our own righteousness? Or is it ever?
 
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redleghunter

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The whole "do nothing but think right and you are going to Heaven" theology reminds me of the person who goes through the wedding ceremony and insists that they are married now no matter how they behave to their spouse. They got the piece of paper that legally binds the other party to being married so no working at the relationship is required. Once married, never single again means always married no matter what one does.
The question really is are those invited to the wedding feast wearing wedding garments?
 
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JesusYeshuaisLord

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I believe that even if we do not remain in the light, i think there is a lot of mercy of God, he is going to make sure you repent or something of the sorts. i don´t know how God is going to judge in that case but...

John Piper was talking about suicide once and if a true believer could commit suicide and still go to heaven. I liked his thoughts. He did say that people can indeed be so desperate that they commit suicide (not be in the light in our point of view, from the outside looking in) but he thought that the last act of your life might not be the decisive one, it looked to him that God would actually look at the whole of your life rather that just this one act where you were in a very dark place and possibly actual mentally ill. That is if the person was really part of the elect however.

Something to study for ourselves I suppose.

I've always been convinced thought that there wouldn't be anything so dark that God couldn't save, I mean, He is God after all. And we are all still from the outside looking in, only God can see the deepest parts of our hearts.
 
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redleghunter

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I hope I didn't say in anyway that we stop sinning but Jesus does cover us with His righteousness so we are then capable of righteous acts because He does them through us.
Yes the sinful nature is still there, I do agree totally with that (which is what I think you mean), but God still calls us righteous because He sees Christ when he looks at His elect.

It sounds more like the test is regarding whether you have been called or not though, not the righteousness of God imputed to us. The test is what distinguishes who was called and who wasn't. Who are doing dead works and who are doing living works.

If one is called, one will eventually act in accordance to God even though there are still some 'sin' in his/her life. We are only glorified (no sinful nature) in the new eternal body (Jesus' return). Now at which point is it our own righteousness? Or is it ever?
Indeed...many are called and few are chosen.

Matthew 22: NASB
1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3“And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4“Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5“But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
 
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Clint Edwards

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I am starting to lose faith in it too. If we are all saved simply by faith, then we really do not have an incentive to be decent people at all. We would already have our one way ticket to Heaven and can use it as a license to sin since we're already saved no matter what.

Why help the poor? We're already going to Heaven. Why not start a war with a third world country? We're saved! Why do anything at all that requires sacrifice? My faith is already good enough!

Without reward or punishment, there would be no incentive or accountability for our actions.

Unless I'm missing something here, I'm losing faith in this whole protestant excuse to play by the world's rules when it comes to finding success.
You are missing something. Righteousness by faith is more than justification. Justification is accompanied by the indwelling Spirit, which empowers one to do good deeds. Good deeds are done NOT to be saved, but BECAUSE we are saved. If one sits and does nothing or in fact does whatever sin they choose, THEN THEY ARE NOT SAVED IN CHRIST. A true Christian, saved by faith cannot help but do good things and shun sin. Faith without works is dead. True saving faith is evidenced by good works. Works cannot save, only faith can.
 
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redleghunter

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And I am not deflecting. Read John 3:36 that you recited. Whoever rejects the Son (better translated as “whoever does not obey the Son” as in the ESV) will not see life, because God’s wrath is on him. Adultery is not an act of believing or loving our Lord. It is an act of rejecting and disobeying our Lord. So you can easily see that the verse does not teach Sola Fide.
You are right adultery is serious sin and so is conspiracy to murder.

2 Samuel 12: NASB

1Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him and said,
“There were two men in one city, the one rich and the other poor.

2“The rich man had a great many flocks and herds.

3“But the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb
Which he bought and nourished;
And it grew up together with him and his children.
It would eat of his bread and drink of his cup and lie in his bosom,
And was like a daughter to him.

4“Now a traveler came to the rich man,
And he was unwilling to take from his own flock or his own herd,
To prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him;
Rather he took the poor man’s ewe lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him.”

5Then David’s anger burned greatly against the man, and he said to Nathan, “As the LORD lives, surely the man who has done this deserves to die. 6“He must make restitution for the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing and had no compassion.”

7Nathan then said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ‘It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8‘I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these! 9‘Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon. 10‘Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11“Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.12‘Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.’” 13Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die. 14“However, because by this deed you have given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die.” 15So Nathan went to his house.
 
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Afra

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Faith alone is English for Sola Fide. Semantics does not work here.


You mean properly understood via Roman Catholic doctrinal development. Again even semantics is no help here. Saying we are justified by faith alone and then post after post a Roman Catholic says....but James chapter two...
No, you are the one engaging in semantics. You conclude that Luther and Chrysostom teach the same thing merely because they use the same phrase. You demonstrate no understanding of the different context and assumptions under which each uses the phrase.

The same declaration which agrees there really wasn't a papacy until hundreds of years later?
The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification speaks nothing of the papacy. You must have another document in mind (of which you are likely misinterpreting).

I believe I pointed out three times where this is actually the case.
No. Chrysostom does not completely exclude works. Here is are a few clear examples:

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 31 on the Gospel of John (Chrysostom)

For instance, when commencing he spoke thus: "A man cannot receive anything of himself" John 3:27: then after adding a high expression, and saying, "He that comes from heaven is above all," he again brings down his discourse to what is lowly, and besides many other things says this, that "God gives not the Spirit by measure." Then he proceeds to say, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand." And after that, knowing that great is the force of punishment, and that the many are not so much led by the promise of good things as by the threat of the terrible, he concludes his discourse with these words; "He that believes in the Son has everlasting life; but he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him." Here again he refers the account of punishment to the Father, for he says not "the wrath of the Son," (yet He is the Judge,) but sets over them the Father, desiring so the more to terrify them.



"Is it then enough," says one, "to believe in the Son, that one may have eternal life?" By no means. And hear Christ Himself declaring this, and saying, "Not every one that says unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 7:21; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is enough of itself to cast a man into hell. But why speak I of a portion of doctrine? Though a man believe rightly on the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, yet if he lead not a right life, his faith will avail nothing towards his salvation. Therefore when He says, "This is life eternal, that they may know You the only true God" John 17:3, let us not suppose that the (knowledge) spoken of is sufficient for our salvation; we need besides this a most exact life and conversation. Since though he has said here, "He that believes in the Son has eternal life," and in the same place something even stronger, (for he weaves his discourse not of blessings only, but of their contraries also, speaking thus: "He that believes not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" yet not even from this do we assert that faith alone is sufficient to salvation. And the directions for living given in many places of the Gospels show this. Therefore he did not say, "This by itself is eternal life," nor, "He that does but believe in the Son has eternal life," but by both expressions he declared this, that the thing does contain life, yet that if a right conversation follow not, there will follow a heavy punishment. And he did not say, "awaits him," but, "abides on him," that is, "shall never remove from him." For that you may not think that the "shall not see life," is a temporary death, but may believe that the punishment is continual, he has put this expression to show that it rests upon him continually. And this he has done, by these very words forcing them on to Christ. Therefore he gave not the admonition to them in particular, but made it universal, the manner which best might bring them over. For he did not say, "if you believe," and, "if you believe not," but made his speech general, so that his words might be free from suspicion. And this he has done yet more strongly than Christ. For Christ says, "He that believes not is condemned already," but John says, "shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." With good cause; for it was a different thing for a man to speak of himself and for another to speak of him. They would have thought that Christ spoke often of these things from self-love, and that he was a boaster; but John was clear from all suspicion. And if at a later time, Christ also used stronger expressions, it was when they had begun to conceive an exalted opinion of Him.

CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 69 on Matthew (Chrysostom)

2. And see thou even herein His bounty; "As many as you shall find," says He, "bid to the marriage." For before this, as I said, they addressed themselves both to Jews and Greeks, tarrying for the most part in Judæa; but since they continued to lay plots against them, hear Paul interpreting this parable, and saying thus, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you, but since you judge yourselves unworthy, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Therefore Christ also says, "The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy."

He knew this indeed even before, but that He might leave them no pretext of a shameless sort of contradiction, although He knew it, to them first He both came and sent, both stopping their mouths, and teaching us to fulfill all our parts, though no one should derive any profit.

Since then they were not worthy, go ye, says He, into the highways, and as many as you shall find, bid; both the common sort, and the outcasts. For because He had said in every way, "The harlots and publicans shall inherit heaven;" and, "The first shall be last, and the last first;" He shows that justly do these things come to pass; which more than anything stung the Jews, and goaded them far more grievously than their overthrow, to see those from the Gentiles brought into their privileges, and into far greater than theirs.

Then in order that not even these should put confidence in their faith alone, He discourses unto them also concerning the judgment to be passed upon wicked actions; to them that have not yet believed, of coming unto Him by faith, and to them that have believed, of care with respect to their life. For the garment is life and practice.

And yet the calling was of grace; wherefore then does He take a strict account? Because although to be called and to be cleansed was of grace, yet, when called and clothed in clean garments, to continue keeping them so, this is of the diligence of them that are called.

The being called was not of merit, but of grace. It was fit therefore to make a return for the grace, and not to show forth such great wickedness after the honor. "But I have not enjoyed," one may say, "so much advantage as the Jews." Nay, but you have enjoyed far greater benefits. For what things were being prepared for them throughout all their time, these you have received at once, not being worthy. Wherefore Paul also says, "And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy." Romans 15:9 For what things were due to them, these you have received.

Wherefore also great is the punishment appointed for them that have been remiss. For as they did despite by not coming, so also thou by thus sitting down with a corrupt life. For to come in with filthy garments is this namely, to depart hence having one's life impure; wherefore also he was speechless.

Do you see how, although the fact was so manifest, He does not punish at once, until he himself, who has sinned, has passed the sentence? For by having nothing to reply he condemned himself, and so is taken away to the unutterable torments.

For do not now, on hearing of darkness, suppose he is punished by this, by sending into a place where there is no light only, but where "there is" also "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 22:13 And this He says, indicating the intolerable pains.

Hear ye, as many as having partaken of the mysteries, and having been present at the marriage, clothe your souls with filthy deeds. Hear whence you were called.

From the highway. Being what? Lame and halt in soul, which is a much more grievous thing than the mutilation of the body. Reverence the love of Him, who called you, and let no one continue to have filthy garments, but let each of you busy himself about the clothing of your soul.

Hear, you women; hear, you men; we need not these garments that are bespangled with gold, that adorn our outward parts, but those others, that adorn the inward. Whilst we have these former, it is difficult to put on those latter. It is not possible at the same time to deck both soul and body. It is not possible at the same time both to serve mammon, and to obey Christ as we ought.

Let us put off us therefore this grievous tyranny. For neither if any one were to adorn your house by hanging it with golden curtains, and were to make you sit there in rags, naked, would you endure it with meekness. But lo, now you do this to yourself, decking the house of your soul, I mean the body, with curtains beyond number, but leaving the soul itself to sit in rags. Do you not know that the king ought to be adorned more than the city? So therefore while for the city hangings are prepared of linen, for the king there is a purple robe and a diadem. Even so do thou wrap the body with a much meaner dress, but the mind do thou clothe in purple, and put a crown on it, and set it on a high and conspicuous chariot. For now you are doing the opposite, decking the city in various ways, but suffering the king, the mind, to be dragged bound after the brute passions.

Do you not remember, that you are bidden to a marriage, and to God's marriage? Do you not consider how the soul that is bidden ought to enter into those chambers, clad, and decked with fringes of gold?​
 
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https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes! Believing in Jesus, being something that we do, becomes "work" by the doctrine's (faith/grace alone - OSAS) own definition. Yet all the the (many!) things associated with believing they reject outright because they are "work"! Well that is quite the convenient little set up there, isn't it? That way I can believe with confidence, and not worry about baptism for the remission of sins at all because that is "work". I can believe with confidence, and honestly do whatever else in the world suits my taste, because all that other stuff is "work". And this is exactly what many "believers" do.
I think you mistake what it means to be saved by faith apart from works. It does not mean a born again believer is comatose in their walk in the Spirit.

Actually being an ambassador for Christ Jesus is very hard work and much work is required. Those works just are not credited to us a justification nor can we point to them and actually say they belong to us.

Luke 17: NASB
7“Which of you, having a slave plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’? 8“But will he not say to him, ‘Prepare something for me to eat, and properly clothe yourself and serve me while I eat and drink; and afterward you may eat and drink’?9“He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were commanded, does he? 10“So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

Revelation 4: NASB

8And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

“HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME.”
9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”


It's not a matter of obedience is absent in a regenerated soul, it's a matter of who is credited for this obedience.

Romans 3: NASB
21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.

31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.



1 Corinthians 1: NASB
26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

Picking up on the above even Luther (who is much maligned on these threads) said thus in his introduction to the Epistle to the Romans:

Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. “Faith is not enough,” they say, “You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.” They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, “I believe.” That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn’t come from this `faith,’ either.

Instead, faith is God’s work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they’re smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools. Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.



An excerpt from “An Introduction to St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans,” Luther’s German Bible of 1522 by Martin Luther, 1483-1546

Translated by Rev. Robert E. Smith from DR. MARTIN LUTHER’S VERMISCHTEDEUTSCHE SCHRIFTEN. Johann K. Irmischer, ed. Vol. 63 Erlangen: Heyder and Zimmer, 1854), pp.124-125. [EA 63:124-125]

Martin Luther's Definition of Faith by Martin Luther


Abide joyfully and boldly my friend!
 
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Afra

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The Church Fathers and "Sola Fide" (Justification by Faith Alone)

SAINT JOHN CHRYSOSTOM on Justification-Salvation

They are citizens of the Church who were wandering in error. They have their lot in RIGHTEOUSNESS who were in the confusion of sin. For not only are they free, but HOLY also; not only holy, but RIGHTEOUS too; not only righteous, but SONS also; not only sons, but HEIRS as well; not only heirs, but BROTHERS even of Christ; not only brothers of Christ, but also co-heirs; not only co-heirs, but His very members; not only His members, but a temple too; not a temple only, but likewise the instruments of the SPIRIT. You see how many are the benefits of BAPTISM, and some think its heavenly GRACE consists ONLY in the remission of sins; but we have enumerated TEN honors. For this reason we baptize even INFANTS, though they are not defiled by sin [or do not have sins]: so that there may be given to them HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, ADOPTION, INHERITANCE, BROTHERHOOD with Christ, and that they may be His MEMBERS. (from Baptismal Catecheses 2:4)

"He that believes in the Son has everlasting life [John 3:36]... "Is it ENOUGH, then, to BELIEVE in the Son," someone will say, "in order to have everlasting life?" BY NO MEANS! Listen to Christ declare this Himself when He says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" [Matt 7:21]; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a PART of our teaching? For if a man BELIEVE rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not LIVE RIGHTLY, his faith will avail him NOTHING TOWARD SALVATION. (Homilies on John 31:1)

"If salvation is BY GRACE [Rom 11:6]," someone will say, "why is it we are not all saved?" BECAUSE YOU DID NOT WILL IT; for grace, even though it be grace, saves the WILLING, not those who are NOT willing and who TURN AWAY from it and who constantly fight against it and OPPOSE themselves to it. (Homilies on Romans 18:5)

We have been freed from punishment, we have put off all wickedness, and we have been REBORN from above [John 3:3,5], and we have risen again, with the old man buried [Rom 6:3-4], and we have been redeemed, and we have been SANCTIFIED, and we have been given ADOPTION INTO SONSHIP, and we have been JUSTIFIED [cf. 1 Cor 6:11], and we have been made BROTHERS of the Only-begotten, and we have been constituted joint heirs and concorporeal with Him and have been perfected in His flesh, and have been united to Him as a body to its head. All of this Paul calls an "abundance of grace" [Rom 5:17], showing that what we have received is not just a medicine to counteract the wound, but even health and comeliness and honor and glory and dignities going far beyond what were natural to us. (Homilies on Romans 10:2)

The following from St. John Chrysostom from Matt1618 (see links below) and the NPNF Volumes:

"To declare His righteousness." What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He doth also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores (katasapentaj) of sin suddenly righteous. (Homily 7 on Romans 3, NPNF1, Volume 11, page 378)

(Romans 4) Verse 4 "For to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Then is not this last the greatest? he means. By no means: for it is to the believer that it is reckoned. But it would not have been reckoned, unless there were something that he contributed himself. And so he too hath God for his debtor, and debtor too for no common things, but great and high ones. For to show his high-mindedness and spiritual understanding, he does not say "to him that believeth" merely, but Ver. 5. "To him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly." For reflect how great a thing it is to be persuaded and have full confidence that God is able on a sudden not to free a man who has lived in impiety from punishment only, but even to make him just, and to count him worthy of those immortal honors. (Homily 8 on Romans 4, NPNF1: Volume 11, page 386)

For what he saith is this, "Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go." Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, "Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;" for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. (Homily on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 277)

For, "think not," saith he, "because ye have believed, that this is sufficient for your salvation: since if to me neither preaching nor teaching nor bringing over innumerable persons, is enough for salvation unless I exhibit my own conduct also unblameable, much less to you. (Homily 23, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 133)

(Galatians 5) Verse 6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love." What is the meaning of "working through love?" Here he gives them a hard blow, by showing that this error had crept in because the love of Christ had not been rooted within them. For to believe is not all that is required, but also to abide in love. (Commentary on Galatians 5, NPNF1: Volume 13, page 37)
 
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redleghunter

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No, you are the one engaging in semantics. You conclude that Luther and Chrysostom teach the same thing merely because they use the same phrase. You demonstrate no understanding of the different context and assumptions under which each uses the phrase.
Actually I showed over 6 within context quotes where Chrysostom in no uncertain terms states we are justified by faith alone.

What you keep missing is that I said where Chrysostom and Luther examine the epistles of Paul they come to the same conclusion. It's a fact.
 
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redleghunter

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The Church Fathers and "Sola Fide" (Justification by Faith Alone)

SAINT JOHN CHRYSOSTOM on Justification-Salvation

They are citizens of the Church who were wandering in error. They have their lot in RIGHTEOUSNESS who were in the confusion of sin. For not only are they free, but HOLY also; not only holy, but RIGHTEOUS too; not only righteous, but SONS also; not only sons, but HEIRS as well; not only heirs, but BROTHERS even of Christ; not only brothers of Christ, but also co-heirs; not only co-heirs, but His very members; not only His members, but a temple too; not a temple only, but likewise the instruments of the SPIRIT. You see how many are the benefits of BAPTISM, and some think its heavenly GRACE consists ONLY in the remission of sins; but we have enumerated TEN honors. For this reason we baptize even INFANTS, though they are not defiled by sin [or do not have sins]: so that there may be given to them HOLINESS, RIGHTEOUSNESS, ADOPTION, INHERITANCE, BROTHERHOOD with Christ, and that they may be His MEMBERS. (from Baptismal Catecheses 2:4)

"He that believes in the Son has everlasting life [John 3:36]... "Is it ENOUGH, then, to BELIEVE in the Son," someone will say, "in order to have everlasting life?" BY NO MEANS! Listen to Christ declare this Himself when He says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord! Lord!' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" [Matt 7:21]; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a PART of our teaching? For if a man BELIEVE rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not LIVE RIGHTLY, his faith will avail him NOTHING TOWARD SALVATION. (Homilies on John 31:1)

"If salvation is BY GRACE [Rom 11:6]," someone will say, "why is it we are not all saved?" BECAUSE YOU DID NOT WILL IT; for grace, even though it be grace, saves the WILLING, not those who are NOT willing and who TURN AWAY from it and who constantly fight against it and OPPOSE themselves to it. (Homilies on Romans 18:5)

We have been freed from punishment, we have put off all wickedness, and we have been REBORN from above [John 3:3,5], and we have risen again, with the old man buried [Rom 6:3-4], and we have been redeemed, and we have been SANCTIFIED, and we have been given ADOPTION INTO SONSHIP, and we have been JUSTIFIED [cf. 1 Cor 6:11], and we have been made BROTHERS of the Only-begotten, and we have been constituted joint heirs and concorporeal with Him and have been perfected in His flesh, and have been united to Him as a body to its head. All of this Paul calls an "abundance of grace" [Rom 5:17], showing that what we have received is not just a medicine to counteract the wound, but even health and comeliness and honor and glory and dignities going far beyond what were natural to us. (Homilies on Romans 10:2)

The following from St. John Chrysostom from Matt1618 (see links below) and the NPNF Volumes:

"To declare His righteousness." What is declaring of righteousness? Like the declaring of His riches, not only for Him to be rich Himself, but also to make others rich, or of life, not only that He is Himself living, but also that He makes the dead to live; and of His power, not only that He is Himself powerful, but also that He makes the feeble powerful. So also is the declaring of His righteousness not only that He is Himself righteous, but that He doth also make them that are filled with the putrefying sores (katasapentaj) of sin suddenly righteous. (Homily 7 on Romans 3, NPNF1, Volume 11, page 378)

(Romans 4) Verse 4 "For to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Then is not this last the greatest? he means. By no means: for it is to the believer that it is reckoned. But it would not have been reckoned, unless there were something that he contributed himself. And so he too hath God for his debtor, and debtor too for no common things, but great and high ones. For to show his high-mindedness and spiritual understanding, he does not say "to him that believeth" merely, but Ver. 5. "To him that believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly." For reflect how great a thing it is to be persuaded and have full confidence that God is able on a sudden not to free a man who has lived in impiety from punishment only, but even to make him just, and to count him worthy of those immortal honors. (Homily 8 on Romans 4, NPNF1: Volume 11, page 386)

For what he saith is this, "Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go." Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, "Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;" for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. (Homily on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 277)

For, "think not," saith he, "because ye have believed, that this is sufficient for your salvation: since if to me neither preaching nor teaching nor bringing over innumerable persons, is enough for salvation unless I exhibit my own conduct also unblameable, much less to you. (Homily 23, NPNF1: Volume 12, page 133)

(Galatians 5) Verse 6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love." What is the meaning of "working through love?" Here he gives them a hard blow, by showing that this error had crept in because the love of Christ had not been rooted within them. For to believe is not all that is required, but also to abide in love. (Commentary on Galatians 5, NPNF1: Volume 13, page 37)
Can you point out where we are justified by faith plus something else in the above quotes? And can you link the quotes within context as I did from the Catholic New Advent Encyclopedia? Thanks.
 
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redleghunter

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No. Chrysostom does not completely exclude works. Here is are a few clear examples:
You are responding as an RC apologetics site would quote the fathers. Find where they condemn an antinomian idea and go with it. Good on them I completely agree antinomian beliefs are heresy and damnable.

You need to respond to the fact Chrysostom and Basil contradict themselves after saying we are justified by faith alone. I don't think they do. I do see from your quotes he truly taught pastorally to encourage and exhort Christians to live pure lives and be workers of righteousness.

This is in keeping with apostolic New Testament teaching as well.

Luther thought so too:

Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire!

I guess some try to separate faith and works, but get burned in the process .
 
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