Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

Davy · Jun 8, 2018

Chinchilla said:
The answer is Yes and you don't need bunch of text to prove that...

I actually used less Biblical text to prove that Jesus gathers His Church on the same day of His second coming than what you inferred as proof. There is more Scripture I could have used that also proves what I showed, but it wasn't needed because the Scripture I showed made it emphatic that Jesus' second coming on the last day of this world is also when He will gather His Church.

gomerian · Jun 10, 2018

Davy said:
The 144,000 of Rev.7 represent Israelites in Christ Jesus

I'm not into coveting what the Hebrews have been given.

Sound Doctrine · Jun 10, 2018

Here's what I think after reading the Scriptures applicable to what is commonly referred to as the rapture. There shall be two raptures, one before the 7-year tribulation when the saints meet the Lord in the air at a year, month, day, and time which no man knows, and one after, when Jesus comes to the earth, and He sends an angel to gather the saints out of the four winds of the earth. In both cases, only the saints are raised. The reference to "the last day" when the saints are raised up is referring to when each saint dies on the earth; we are then absent from the body, present with the Lord. Living saints are present in the body, present with the Lord.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:22 - "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." Obviously, Jesus is referring to living saints here, as a comfort to them. If the elect Jesus was referring to are all the elect from His resurrection or the Pentecost to the rapture being raised up at His second coming for the battle of Armageddon, what days would He have to shorten? He raises the tribulation saints on the day He comes again to the earth. The pretribulation rapture answers to this very thing; saints up to the tribulation are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, thus the days of the tribulation are not endured by these saints. The days are to be shortened. We are not appointed unto wrath but to salvation. God will not put us through the greatest wrath the earth will ever have from Him. He is known for rescuing His chosen from out of the target of His wrath. There is a post tribulation rapture which I already mentioned, and in both cases, are of the saints only.

Matthew 24:29-31 - "29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Notice that the circumstances of the pre and post tribulation raptures are quite different. There are no signs given for the first one, as no man knows when it will be. Those living during the end of the tribulation have a very good idea of when Jesus' second coming will be by the many signs given, which are obvious.

BABerean2 · Jun 10, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
Here's what I think after reading the Scriptures applicable to what is commonly referred to as the rapture. There shall be two raptures, one before the 7-year tribulation when the saints meet the Lord in the air at a year, month, day, and time which no man knows, and one after, when Jesus comes to the earth, and He sends an angel to gather the saints out of the four winds of the earth. In both cases, only the saints are raised. The reference to "the last day" when the saints are raised up is referring to when each saint dies on the earth; we are then absent from the body, present with the Lord. Living saints are present in the body, present with the Lord.

Jesus says in Matthew 24:22 - "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." Obviously, Jesus is referring to living saints here, as a comfort to them. If the elect Jesus was referring to are all the elect from His resurrection or the Pentecost to the rapture being raised up at His second coming for the battle of Armageddon, what days would He have to shorten? He raises the tribulation saints on the day He comes again to the earth. The pretribulation rapture answers to this very thing; saints up to the tribulation are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, thus the days of the tribulation are not endured by these saints. The days are to be shortened. We are not appointed unto wrath but to salvation. God will not put us through the greatest wrath the earth will ever have from Him. He is known for rescuing His chosen from out of the target of His wrath. There is a post tribulation rapture which I already mentioned, and in both cases, are of the saints only.

Matthew 24:29-31 - "29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Notice that the circumstances of the pre and post tribulation raptures are quite different. There are no signs given for the first one, as no man knows when it will be. Those living during the end of the tribulation have a very good idea of when Jesus' second coming will be by the many signs given, which are obvious.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Choose Wisely · Jun 10, 2018

com7fy8 said:
I offer that I am already acquainted with this. And I have answered how we do not boast how great a trial is, but how great our God is.

Also > Jesus says that "Immediately after" that greatest tribulation "ever", then is when the "elect" will be gathered.

And so we are wise to trust God who knows to have us ready for whatever He knows will really happen.

So, I offer that you have already made yourself very clear about what you believe. And I am offering scripture and things I have learned.

The elect in this case are the Chosen people of the 12 tribes. Easy to prove because 12000 from each tribe .....144000 are the first fruits of the harvest after the tribulation. The church is taken pretrib.......like the scriptures say.

TribulationSigns · Jun 10, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The elect in this case are the Chosen people of the 12 tribes. Easy to prove because 12000 from each tribe .....144000 are the first fruits of the harvest after the tribulation. The church is taken pretrib.......like the scriptures say.

Incorrect.

The number 10 (and its multiples, 100, 1,000, etc.) signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 signifies the congregation. So the 144,000 can only be all the FULLNESS of the tribes of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, from old and new testament, bar none. That is the FULL BODY of Christ, which is the Israel of God. They are the first fruits in Christ.

There are not two separate bodies called Israel that are sealed separate bodies. There isn't a Jewish Israel of God and then a Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. And that is what many people have never quite understood in all the time that I have witnessed it to them from the scriptures. Again and again and again they have quoted God's word concerning this. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 head counts of Jews, Plus some Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek, Israel is all one body in Christ! But don't take my word for it, receive the witness of scripture.

Ephesians 2:12-19

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; "

Don't you get it? How could it be written any plainer? The tribes of Israel that are sealed as servants of God are all one peoples. For us to say that Israel is one body of Jews and Gentiles at peace with God through one man Jesus Christ, and then to claim the 144,000 sealed of all the tribes of Israel are only Jews, is a non-sequitur. The word is the authority, not our own vain personal opinions and private interpretations.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The elect in this case are the Chosen people of the 12 tribes. Easy to prove because 12000 from each tribe .....144000 are the first fruits of the harvest after the tribulation. The church is taken pretrib.......like the scriptures say.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia to Christ.

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

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Sound Doctrine · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

I don't consider the teachings of man, but just the teachings of Scripture. The tribulation serves two purposes: God has His wrath on the wicked. Second, God fulfills the 7 years left to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant given in Genesis 12, which is unconditional, but not yet complete. There are 70 weeks of 7 years (see Daniel 9). Sixty-nine of those weeks have been completed, then God turned His back on a disobedient Israel. When the tribulation starts, God turns toward Israel to complete the final 7 years of the covenant (483 + 7 = 490 years), which is completed immediately after the tribulation. Jesus comes for the second time to fight for Israel and to reap the harvest of all tribulation saints as a second rapture, like the first.

Davy · Jun 11, 2018

gomerian said:
I'm not into coveting what the Hebrews have been given.

My statement has nothing to do with coveting. The Rev.7 chapter about the sealing of the 144,000 is about God's sealing, not Satan's seal. God's sealing is by The Holy Spirit according to Apostle Paul. And in Ezekiel 9, the mark the angels seal God's people with is written as the letter Tau, which in ancient paleo-Hebrew was made as a cross.

Thus the 144,000 of Israel is about BELIEVERS ON CHRIST JESUS, not deceived Jews.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
I don't consider the teachings of man, but just the teachings of Scripture.

Then why did you ignore the New Covenant scriptures that I gave you?

Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Galatians 3:16, Paul said the Abrahamic promise was made only to Christ.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-16, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
Why are you ignoring these passages in order to produce a future 70th week of Daniel?

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seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Then why did you ignore the New Covenant scriptures that I gave you?

Likely he reads your posts and realizes now wrong you are most of the time

He has a better understanding than your notions

Sound Doctrine · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Then why did you ignore the New Covenant scriptures that I gave you?

Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Based on Galatians 3:16, Paul said the Abrahamic promise was made only to Christ.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-16, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
Why are you ignoring these passages in order to produce a future 70th week of Daniel?

.

I am ignoring nothing. Please read about the Abrahamic Covenant below. Genesis tells us of an everlasting covenant between Abraham and Himself.

Genesis 12:1-3 - "1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

Genesis 13:14-17 - "14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. 16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. 17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee."

Genesis 15:12-21 - "
12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. 13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. 15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

Genesis 17:1-10 - "1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:19-21 - "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

God not only made a covenant with Jesus, but with Abraham as a father of many nations through Isaac. Jesus' lineage also came through this line. The seed Paul is referring to is Christ, but the covenant is made both as Jesus and as many nations. What would Jesus need with land which by being God, He already owns? Paul is pointing in the direction of Jesus specifically to make the point that we through Jesus are counted as the seed without number. He was in this letter drawing the foolish Galatians away from the law and back into grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Where does it say that the Gospel was preached to the Jews for 7 years before Paul preached it to the Gentiles? Why should this have anything to do with the 70 weeks spoken of by Daniel, that there is still 1 week of years left anyway? The new covenant does not replace the Abrahamic Covenant; it is a covenant of salvation through Christ, which is spoken of as the singular seed in part of the Abrahamic Covenant. Are you an amillennial? If not, do you know what that belief is? Please don't think I am trying to insult your intelligence, as there is no way I can know how much you know or what your beliefs are unless you tell me. I am what is commonly labelled as a Premillennialist, but there are 2 raptures. There is the pre-trib. rapture and the post-trib. rapture of tribulation saints on the day of the Lord's second coming.

com7fy8 · Jun 11, 2018

Choose Wisely said:
The church is taken pretrib.......like the scriptures say.

I haven't seen any scripture which directly says this.

And, I have not seen any scripture which plainly says the "elect" (Matthew 24) are only 144,000 Hebrew tribal members, which I think you mean to say.

TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
Where does it say that the Gospel was preached to the Jews for 7 years before Paul preached it to the Gentiles?

This is where I believe BaB2 is wrong about this. Peter has already brought the Gospel to the Gentiles under God's command, long before Paul even started his ministry, Acts 10:1-49, 11:1-18.

Why should this have anything to do with the 70 weeks spoken of by Daniel

Nothing. Christ has already confirmed with his Blood at the Cross which what strengthen the Covenant. The final week is NOT 7 years but a symbolic period span from death to Christ's Second Coming which covers the New Testament period.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

Sound Doctrine said:
and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

And how would "all" the families of the earth be blessed by the promise made to Abraham?

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "AND TO YOUR SEED," who is Christ.

Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Based on what Paul said above, I am Abraham's seed and heir to the promise.

...............................

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(See Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:24)

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TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Dr. Varner is incorrect with the abomination of desolation being referred to Titus and physical destruction of Jerusalem. This is not what the week that Christ confirmed about. The week that Christ confirmed with is the New Testament Congregation, not the Old Israel, where the abomatimnon of desolation shall stand prior in the "holy place" prior to Second Coming, not 70AD. The holy place that Christ mentioned in Matthew 24 is not Jewish temple in 70AD because it was not holy, but the New Testament Congregation of Israel (Church) where she is supposed to represent the Kingdom of God that was given to her.

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Dr. Varner is incorrect with the abomination of desolation being referred to Titus and physical destruction of Jerusalem. This is not what the week that Christ confirmed about. The week that Christ confirmed with is the New Testament Congregation, not the Old Israel, where the abomatimnon of desolation shall stand prior in the "holy place" prior to Second Coming, not 70AD. The holy place that Christ mentioned in Matthew 24 is not Jewish temple in 70AD because it was not holy, but the New Testament Congregation of Israel (Church) where she is supposed to represent the Kingdom of God that was given to her.

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America:

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

............................................

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Based on the words of Paul above, there was a period of time when the Gospel was taken to the Jews first.

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seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America:
.

At least they had something to read , it better than nothing at all

TribulationSigns · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

Not according to Scripture.

Hebrews 9:15-18
[15] And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
[16] For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
[18] Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Jesus Christ did not confirm a covenant by being baptism and started his earthly ministry. It is when he DIED. It is like your will for your family. It will not become a force until you died first.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

Since the final week is about the New Testament Congregation, not the Jewish Sacrificial System, where Jesus Christ became our High Priest on His people's behalf. The sacrifice and the Obligation needed for salvation for Israel, as long as He is sealing His people, Revelation 7:1-4. Once the sealing of the 144,000 is finished, or the fullness of the Gentiles be coming in, there is no need for sacrifice and the obligation because the salvation ended. After salvation ends, the church will start growing apostasy which leads to the abomination of desolation.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

In verse 26, the "city and the Sanctuary" pointed to the end of Old Testament Congregation when Christ has confirmed a covenant at His death. Therefore, verse 27's abomination and desolation deals with New Testament Congregation prior to Second Coming. Not the Jewish temple or anything like that. Verse 27 is all about Christ dealing with his New Testament congregation, not the Old Testament congregation. ............................................

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Of course, John, Peter, James, disciples, the 500, etc. were the Jews who eyewitnessed Christ's resurrection and Pentecost. And the Gospel eventually end up going into the Gentiles all over the world. You got the timing wrong... thinking that Christ confirmed a covenant at baptist and preach to the Jews first before death. This is not what Hebrews 9:15-18 supports.

Choose Wisely · Jun 11, 2018

TribulationSigns said:
Incorrect.

The number 10 (and its multiples, 100, 1,000, etc.) signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 signifies the congregation. So the 144,000 can only be all the FULLNESS of the tribes of Israel. The total fullness of the children of God, from old and new testament, bar none. That is the FULL BODY of Christ, which is the Israel of God. They are the first fruits in Christ.

There are not two separate bodies called Israel that are sealed separate bodies. There isn't a Jewish Israel of God and then a Gentile Israel of God. Israel is one holy people of God. And that is what many people have never quite understood in all the time that I have witnessed it to them from the scriptures. Again and again and again they have quoted God's word concerning this. The Israel of God is not divided into 144,000 head counts of Jews, Plus some Gentiles. There is neither Jew nor Greek, Israel is all one body in Christ! But don't take my word for it, receive the witness of scripture.

Ephesians 2:12-19

"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; "

Don't you get it? How could it be written any plainer? The tribes of Israel that are sealed as servants of God are all one peoples. For us to say that Israel is one body of Jews and Gentiles at peace with God through one man Jesus Christ, and then to claim the 144,000 sealed of all the tribes of Israel are only Jews, is a non-sequitur. The word is the authority, not our own vain personal opinions and private interpretations.

Oh, I get it. Currently the 12 tribes have not accepted the Jesus the Christ as their savior. After the church is raptured pretrib there will be exactly 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest....just like it says. We don't need to make anything up, we merely need to take God at His WORD.

Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

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