Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2511:

Otherwise, you need to repent of your unbiblical view about how many sins Jesus Christ did die for.

Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
 
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Doug Melven said in post #2512:

Read Galatians, yes the whole book, and see what Paul was saying about adding circumcision, a physical act, to there salvation.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.

Galatians 3:2-3 means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law cannot make Christians perfect. Galatians 3:2-3 is not contradicting that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

Water baptism is a physical act.

And water-immersion baptism is required for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:5).

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

It does say that those who call Jesus Lord and do good works will not make it.

If they have unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23c, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

ONLY those who do the will of the Father will make it.
His will can be found in John 6:40

And in Romans 2:6-8, with regard to ultimate salvation.

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

If they were hyperbole it would mean Jesus lied.

No, for hyperbole is not a lie. It just isn't literal (e.g. Matthew 23:24b).

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

Believing in what Jesus has done on the cross will result in God making us born-again and thereby giving us eternal life.

Ultimate salvation requires obedience (Hebrews 5:9).
 
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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2519:

Faith plus obedience= adding to Paul’s Gospel . . .

No, it's what he taught, with regard to ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2519:

. . . perverting said Gospel=falling from grace=Christ being of no benefit to you=you are accursed . . .

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This refers to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which Christians are not under (Romans 7:6).
 
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Just because people will twist words doesn't mean we shouldn't say them.
Look at how many people twist Jesus' words around to make them say something Jesus never meant.
There are no verses that condone sinning.
But there are several verses that urge believers not to sin.
And if as you say, believers can't sin, why do we have all of these verses urging us not to sin?
Why does Paul say, "Grieve not the Holy Spirit"?
Why does Paul say, "Quench not the Spirit"?
Why does John say, "My little children these thing write I unto you that ye sin not"?

If a child of God can't sin?

Unfortunately you don't seem to want to believe John when he says a Christian can't sin. 1 John 3:9 What that means is your new nature doesn't want to sin. But, you still have free will and it will take a lot of rebellion against God to go back into sin. You still have a choice, but it is willful sin, which in the Old Testament, they killed them. So of course they are going to urge you not to do that. Dah! It is quenching the Spirit. So if you are determined to go to hell after receiving God's powerful Holy Spirit and trample on the blood of Jesus, go ahead and be that dog that goes back to his own vomit.
 
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1stcenturylady

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And where does the Bible say that our desire to sin has been taken away?

You have been misled. And who condones continuing in sin anyway?


The proof was shown to you from Scripture. But, of course, you have the choice to accept (believe) what the Bible says, or reject what the Bible says.

Romans 6:2 says you are dead to sin.
Romans 8:9 says you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
1 John 3:9 says a Christian cannot sin.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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The Bible speaks of obedience to the faith (Romans 1:5), the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26), and the work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

So, @Blood Bought 1953, I think you need to qualify your statement by saying that we are not saved by obedience or works. However, we are saved unto obedience and works (Ephesians 2:10).

I have no problem with that, as long as we realize we are not saved by obedience or works.These two items will follow salvation as night follows day,but if one thinks these things save or keep you saved, one is on very shaky ground.Faith plus nothing for salvation.
 
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Why don't you simply begin with Romans 6 and 7 and explain what Paul was saying, then. That would be a start.

Why don't you start with chapter one. Paul is talking about SIN and the LAW. The law was holy, but it could not prevent us from sinning because of our fallen nature. This is before Christ (except for 6). So chapter 7 shows the battle of trying to keep a holy law with a fallen carnal flesh. So who can stop this merry-go-round of trying and failing to please God by obeying the law? The answer is Jesus, (who places His Own Spirit within us). Then chapter 8 introduces that HOLY SPIRIT. Chapter 8 explains all this from chapter 7.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Does that help?
 
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1stcenturylady

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Some people have apparently reached a level in their own righteousness that neither Peter or Paul could attain.As for me I’ll stick with a Biblical type of righteousness that worked for Abraham....an imputed type of righteousness that came as a result of my faith.God’s standard is perfection.I am perfect in His sight, thanks to the finished work of Christ.....it’s All Him and none of us. I sure wouldn’t want to stand before my Maker and try to convince Him of my “ perfection”. Faith plus nothing.

Abraham believed God and obeyed Him. If he didn't, there would have been no imputed righteousness.
 
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I have no problem with that, as long as we realize we are not saved by obedience or works.These two items will follow salvation as night follows day,but if one thinks these things save or keep you saved, one is on very shaky ground.Faith plus nothing for salvation.

Then you have a problem, my friend. Jesus said, if you love me, KEEP my commandments. But He didn't mean with our carnal nature, but by His Spirit.

Don't you know that the works Paul was speaking of were the outward works of the law: circumcision; keeping days, eating kosher? But there are other works we should be doing for mankind, not ourselves.
 
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Then you have a problem, my friend. Jesus said, if you love me, KEEP my commandments. But He didn't mean with our carnal nature, but by His Spirit.

Don't you know that the works Paul was speaking of were the outward works of the law: circumcision; keeping days, eating kosher? But there are other works we should be doing for mankind, not ourselves.
Then you have a problem, my friend. Jesus said, if you love me, KEEP my commandments. But He didn't mean with our carnal nature, but by His Spirit.

Don't you know that the works Paul was speaking of were the outward works of the law: circumcision; keeping days, eating kosher? But there are other works we should be doing for mankind, not ourselves.



The above view makes better sense to me....check it out and decide for yourself if you are truly interested
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2511:

Otherwise, you need to repent of your unbiblical view about how many sins Jesus Christ did die for.
Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29).
Couldn't help but notice this patchwork of verses in order to support your view. Except, none of the verses cited does that. It's only your imagination that thinks these verses are only about "past sins" "unrepentant sins", etc.

Where you've gone wrong is to ignore what Hebrews says about Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Heb 7:27, 9:12, 9:26, 9:29, 10:10, 10:12, 10:14 (esp).

So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).
Again, none of these verses support what you claim here.

And what you claim is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand".

The red words are the CAUSE of possessing eternal life; Jesus Christ, who gives it.

The blue words are the EFFECT of possessing eternal life; never perishing.

From this, we see clearly that the only condition for never perishing is to possess eternal life.

Now, the only question remaining is WHEN one possesses eternal life.

Glad you asked.

Jesus clarified WHEN one HAS eternal life:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And the beloved apostle, John, said this in 1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

So, we see that from the MOMENT one believes in Christ, they possess eternal life, and, according to Jesus, they shall never perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Unfortunately you don't seem to want to believe John when he says a Christian can't sin. 1 John 3:9
We certainly know that he didn't say that, given what he wrote previous to 3:9.

1 John 1:8,10
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

The solution to on-going sin is confession:
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

He also wrote this in ch 2 -
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

If he thought believers "can't sin", he would not have written 1:8, 10, or 2:1.

What that means is your new nature doesn't want to sin.
No, it means our new nature CAN'T sin. That's the point of 1 John 3:9.

Where do you think the Holy Spirit actually resides in us? Our human nature, which is sinful? Of course not.

But, you still have free will and it will take a lot of rebellion against God to go back into sin. You still have a choice, but it is willful sin, which in the Old Testament, they killed them. So of course they are going to urge you not to do that. Dah! It is quenching the Spirit. So if you are determined to go to hell after receiving God's powerful Holy Spirit and trample on the blood of Jesus, go ahead and be that dog that goes back to his own vomit.
Where do you come up with the nonsense of "going to hell after receiving God's powerful Holy Spirit"?

It appears you have no understanding of what Paul wrote in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

But, unlike your style, I will quote each verse, to prove that they say what I claim they say.

Eph 1
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance
until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

What is clear from these verses is that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a seal or mark which identifies the one having believed as a possession of God, and He is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the day of redemption.

These verses just SCREAM eternal security for those whose eyes are open.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Romans 6:2 says you are dead to sin.
This means dead to sin's penalty. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Romans 8:9 says you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
This is a contrast between unsaved and saved. Unbelievers have only 1 nature, a sin nature. Believers have a new nature along with their sin nature. 2 Cor 5:17

1 John 3:9 says a Christian cannot sin.
No it doesn't. As I previously proved to you from 1 John 1:8,10, 2:1.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Why don't you simply begin with Romans 6 and 7 and explain what Paul was saying, then. That would be a start.
Why don't you start with chapter two. Paul is talking about SIN and the LAW. The law was holy, but it could not prevent us from sinning because of our fallen nature. This is before Christ (except for 6). So chapter 7 shows the battle of trying to keep a holy law with a fallen carnal flesh. So who can stop this merry-go-round of trying and failing to please God by obeying the law? The answer is Jesus, (who places His Own Spirit within us). Then chapter 8 introduces that HOLY SPIRIT. Chapter 8 explains all this from chapter 7.
I see that my advise was ignored. But Romans 6 STILL applies to every believer, regarding choices of who to obey.

And Romans 7 is STILL true, not only of Paul, but every believer today.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Does that help?
I'm sorry to have to say, but nothing you've posted is helpful for understanding the truth of Scripture. Your views are not in line with Scripture. Esp about not sinning, and loss of salvation.
 
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Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

This means that the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, especially its physical circumcision (Galatians 6:12-13), are works of the flesh, as opposed to spiritual works of faith (Philippians 3:2-14; 1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6, Titus 3:8). For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12). Also, compare what Romans 7:5-6 says.
That is according to your faulty interpretation.
Works of the flesh mean anything we can do, like dead works. Hebrews 6:1-3

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

Water baptism is a physical act.
And water-immersion baptism is required for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:5).
If you actually read that verse you would see that it is not referring to water baptism. It is referring to what the Spirit does.

No, for hyperbole is not a lie. It just isn't literal (e.g. Matthew 23:24b).
This is the definition:
hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

In other words, a hyperbole is stretching the truth.
When a person says you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, it is clearly known that this is an illustration made to make a point. Unless you think you can actually swallow a camel.

An example of hyperbole would be if someone said they caught a huge fish, but in reality all they caught was a minnow,
Jesus did not exaggerate, He used illustrations, and everybody with any common einse knows it.
 
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Doug Melven

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Unfortunately you don't seem to want to believe John when he says a Christian can't sin. 1 John 3:9 What that means is your new nature doesn't want to sin. But, you still have free will and it will take a lot of rebellion against God to go back into sin. You still have a choice, but it is willful sin, which in the Old Testament, they killed them. So of course they are going to urge you not to do that. Dah! It is quenching the Spirit. So if you are determined to go to hell after receiving God's powerful Holy Spirit and trample on the blood of Jesus, go ahead and be that dog that goes back to his own vomit.
You are getting closer to the truth than the last time we discussed 1 John 3:9.
My body and soul are not born of God. My spirit that is one with God is born of God.
My spirit or new nature does not sin. In fact it cannot sin according to that verse.
You are aware there is a difference between "can't" and "won't"?
If someone can't do something it means they are incapable of doing such a thing.
Like God can't lie. This means He is incapable of lying.
Just as we who are born of God can't sin because God can't sin.
So rather than say the Scripture doesn't actually mean what it says, I would rather find out how that Scripture can be true.
And the truth is I am a 3 part being, spirit soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5:23
 
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justbyfaith

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I prefer to see 1 John 3:9 as hyperbole than to go with the gnostic idea that I can sin like a madman with my body and yet I am not really sinning because my new nature/spirit doesn't take part in it.

I take 1 John 3:9 to be using exaggeration to make a point. When it says that he who is born of God cannot sin, it is speaking of the fact that when we become born again, we make a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, and hell, towards righteousness, life, and heaven.

We are now walking in a different direction than we used to as born again believers; and this applies to all of us (spirit, soul, and body--1 Thessalonians 5:23-24). John exaggerates to make this point by saying that we even cannot sin as believers in Christ.

We must not use a faulty interpretation of 1 John 3:9 as a license for sinning (Jude 1:3-4 NIV). Saying that if I sin with my body I am exempt from punishment because my new nature/spirit didn't take part in the committing of that sin. That is what the gnostics believed; and they were a strong threat to the early church: historically, they almost put it out of existence.
 
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justbyfaith

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That is according to your faulty interpretation.
Works of the flesh mean anything we can do, like dead works. Hebrews 6:1-3

Doug Melven said in post #2512:

Water baptism is a physical act.
If you actually read that verse you would see that it is not referring to water baptism. It is referring to what the Spirit does.


This is the definition:
hy·per·bo·le
hīˈpərbəlē/Submit
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

In other words, a hyperbole is stretching the truth.
When a person says you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, it is clearly known that this is an illustration made to make a point. Unless you think you can actually swallow a camel.

An example of hyperbole would be if someone said they caught a huge fish, but in reality all they caught was a minnow,
Jesus did not exaggerate, He used illustrations, and everybody with any common einse knows it.
Jesus exaggerated to make a point when he told us to pluck out our eye or cut off our hand if either one of those things causes us to sin. He was merely saying, deal with sin using drastic measures, because sin will put you in the lake of fire...it is better to enter into life with one eye than having two eyes to go into hell fire...he is pointing out that whatever you are holding on to, no matter how important you think it is, if it is as important to you as your eye or hand, if it is causing you to sin, you need to get rid of it out of your life.
 
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Abraham believed God and obeyed Him. If he didn't, there would have been no imputed righteousness.
Because he was declared righteous by God, he did what was righteous.
And we see that after this being declared righteous he was a blessed man.
Psalms 32:1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

In Genesis 20 he was going South and came to Abimelech's country and he lied about Sarah, just as he did in Genesis 12.
Not only did God not impute sin to Abraham, Abimelech blessed Abraham. Genesis 20:14

Then we have David, a adulterer, murderer and a fearful person.
God didn't impute these sins to him, for if He had, David should have been stoned to death.
I put fearful person in there because when David was running from Saul, he went to the Philistines and he disguised himself as a madman.
Where was the courage he had when he faced Goliath?
Or the courage David's mighty men had shown in killing many of the enemy.
 
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