Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

seventysevens said:
Care to give more detail ? They were all raised once before?
who was ,? what year did it happen ? how many were there that were raised ? If this means they died and went to heaven , that is not really being raised , as we know the soul/spirit does not remain in a dead body so the soul/spirit does go to where the Lord is but is not a resurrection

Apparently, you are as confused with what Q wrote, as I am.

seventysevens - is this not the general belief you hold, like me ?

There will be a resurrection of Christians who have died up to that time a split second or two - before the rapture of the living Christians takes place?

I am pretty sure this is the broad based understanding regarding 1Thessalonians4:15-18 (especially by pre-trib).

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
There is a conflict between your first statement and your last statement above.
How can Christ reign on the earth for 1,000 years, when the earth is burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on "the Day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief"?
(See Revelation 16:15-16)

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth.
I am doing the same.

Your Premill doctrine comes to pieces in Revelation 11:15-18, with the time of the Judgment of the Dead.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

.

Your claim what I have written contradicts itself is not only FALSE, but from opinionated errors you have as to the chronological order of end time events.

For example, the Day of the Lord, is the tribulation, while the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth, is a complete time of world peace. The destruction of the earth, and of its passing away, recorded in 2 Pet.3:19-13 and Rev.21:1, DOES NOT take place until Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth HAS ENDED.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
Q, you have really confused me with what you believe. I need some clarification.

You don't believe that there will be a resurrection of Christians a split second or two - before the rapture of the living Christians takes place?

Let's say, just so I can understand your position, that the rapture takes place on July 31, 2018. In that hypothetical, when does the resurrection of the dead in Christ (in blue below) in 1Thessalonians4:16-17 take place - a hypothetical date that would fit with what you believe?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

FYI, all the dead in Christ will return with Him from heaven when He comes, with glorified bodies. What makes you think a resurrection of their old physical bodies is what the Scriptures either say or mean. I sugget you review my previous post as to why.

The tribulation martyrs/saints of Rev.7:9=17 and 20:4 and 6, do not belong to the Church and is a different issue entirely.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

seventysevens said:
Care to give more detail ? They were all raised once before?
who was ,? what year did it happen ? how many were there that were raised ? If this means they died and went to heaven , that is not really being raised , as we know the soul/spirit does not remain in a dead body so the soul/spirit does go to where the Lord is but is not a resurrection

Reference is to all those who previously died in Christ, and return from heaven with Him when He returns, recorded in 1 Thes.4:14.

Quasar92

seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

Quasar92 said:
Reference is to all those who previously died in Christ, and return from heaven with Him when He returns, recorded in 1 Thes.4:14.

Quasar92

Ok , I see that some people think about the physical we now have being saved , but I never even gave that thought , we that are alive when it happens are translated/changed at the moment it takes place , those who are dead in Christ rise first has been defined in different ways , but I believed in is a reference to the "physical characteristics" not the actual body being raised , meaning that what we look like will be the same , only in perfection, Just as Jesus did when he was resurrected
obviously a body that is decomposed would need much repair .,
But no one really knows how it happens , just the result of what happens, being resurrected is being brought back to live and Jesus physical body was simply gone from the tomb in 3 days , we can dig up graves from decades ago and still find the bulk of the body still there , which with Jesus body being gone from the tomb implies that his same body was that which was resurrected into a glorified body

BABerean2 · Jun 11, 2018

Quasar92 said:
For example, the Day of the Lord, is the tribulation, while the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on earth, is a complete time of world peace. The destruction of the earth, and of its passing away, recorded in 2 Pet.3:19-13 and Rev.21:1, DOES NOT take place until Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth HAS ENDED.

Once again, what you are claiming does not match the text of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Peter said the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

This agrees with Christ returning in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Your Premill doctrine falls apart with the "time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, with reward for some and destruction for others.

.

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
Well, Quasar, you 'liked' my post #96, where I identified those who hope for a pre-trib rapture to heaven, as illegitimate!
You old, many posted, so called scriptural proofs, have been refuted before, but for the benefit of new members and all who have fallen for that false teaching, I repeat the proofs that you are wrong:

It IS 'crystal clear' that this prophecy will occur when Jesus leaves heaven and comes to the earth for His Millennium reign. We who are alive and remain, will meet and greet Him, then be with Him forever- on earth.

What a leap of conjecture and supposition that is!
John just goes to heaven in the spirit, his body must remain at Patmos.
That represents the Church? You're dreaming!

Totally refuted by the proof that Jesus is accompanied by His angelic army. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14, and the other scriptures about His Return, say the 'holy ones', Greek- hagious; which can mean angels or saints, but the clear identification in the 2 verses above, proves they are angels.

I have covered your other 4 points, nothing in them helps your case.
The only way you can prove a rapture to heaven, is by providing a Bible verse that says that is what God will do for His people.

The nviews myou hold on end time events IS NOT what I liked about your post #96, Keras. It was your next to last paragraph.

Your denial of the coming Pre-trib rapture of the church, is as much as calling Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul, all liars, asd found in the following four post link that refutes you.

The Biblical teaching of the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Jun 11, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Once again, what you are claiming does not match the text of 2 Peter 3:10-13.

Peter said the earth will be burned up on the day of the Lord.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

This agrees with Christ returning in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Your Premill doctrine falls apart with the "time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, with reward for some and destruction for others.

.

You have my qualified response to your ongoing insupportable opinions you cannot prove with your misplaced timing factor for end time events.

Quasar92

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

Quasar92 said:
FYI, all the dead in Christ will return with Him from heaven when He comes, with glorified bodies. What makes you think a resurrection of their old physical bodies is what the Scriptures either say or mean. I sugget you review my previous post as to why.

The tribulation martyrs/saints of Rev.7:9=17 and 20:4 and 6, do not belong to the Church and is a different issue entirely.

Quasar92

Q, I am not talking about whether the post trib rapture view is wrong. I believe it is.

I am asking you strictly in the 1Thessalonians4:16-17 event, about the resurrection of Christians in verse 16, the dead in Christ. Do you not believe that resurrection takes place at nearly the same time, the rapture of the living Christians are takened ?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Davy · Jun 11, 2018

Biblewriter said:
I said nothing about whether or not their conclusions were valid.

My ENTIRE point was that the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation was being taught in ancient times.

As usual, the pre-trib deceivers make false assumptions about old writings, and in doing that attempt to Revise the original context of what was written:

Quote from Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter 29, Paragraph 1:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Notice the part in red which Irenaeus wrote, which Biblewriter left out. It is pointing to the righteous (i.e., the Church) going through this "last contest", and by overcoming it they will be crowned with incorruption.

That is NOT a pre-trib rapture doctrine. That is a post-tribulational doctrine by Irenaeus.

Davy · Jun 11, 2018

Biblewriter said:
It was clearly stated, in this very thread, that the scriptures do not show more than one returm of Christ. Those who say this are ignoring a clear precedent set in the Old Testament, that, even though his coming is always stated in the singular, when the prophecies contain mutually exclusive details, the resolution is that He will return more than just one time.

The OT Scriptures (like Zechariah 9:9-10) declare only 2 advents of Christ. The first advent was to offer Himself upon the cross. The 2nd advent is His return to this earth with His elect according Zech.14, and Acts 1. There is no... other coming in between those 2. For a pre-trib rapture to be true, there must be a separate coming in between those 2 advents. There is no such idea written in God's Word.

keras · Jun 11, 2018

The only conclusion to this issue of a 'rapture to heaven', will be as the end times events take place.
It is quite plain that people are not going to change their beliefs, no matter how much evidence of errors and false interpretations are presented.

This is a sad state of affairs, because many will be shocked and may renounce God when what they expected did not happen. When the terrible time of testing comes, as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us it will.
However, at least those here know there are other scenarios, that other Christians have presented and hopefully will remember what the Lord wants of them.

Douggg · Jun 11, 2018

Davy said:
The OT Scriptures (like Zechariah 9:9-10) declare only 2 advents of Christ. The first advent was to offer Himself upon the cross. The 2nd advent is His return to this earth with His elect according Zech.14, and Acts 1. There is no... other coming in between those 2. For a pre-trib rapture to be true, there must be a separate coming in between those 2 advents. There is no such idea written in God's Word.

The Tanach deals mostly with Israel, which will go through the seven years.

1thessalonians4:15-18 deals with Christians who are not appointed to wrath.

seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
The only conclusion to this issue of a 'rapture to heaven', will be as the end times events take place.
It is quite plain that people are not going to change their beliefs, no matter how much evidence of errors and false interpretations are presented.

This is a sad state of affairs, because many will be shocked and may renounce God when what they expected did not happen. When the terrible time of testing comes, as 1 Peter 4:12 tells us it will.
However, at least those here know there are other scenarios, that other Christians have presented and hopefully will remember what the Lord wants of them.

No one any where in the world is more obsessed with it than you;
yet you'll be the first one to fall into temptation needing food and water and take the mark you are dreaming about

seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

Davy said:
As usual, the pre-trib deceivers make false assumptions about old writings, and in doing that attempt to Revise the original context of what was written:

Quote from Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter 29, Paragraph 1:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."

Notice the part in red which Irenaeus wrote, which Biblewriter left out. It is pointing to the righteous (i.e., the Church) going through this "last contest", and by overcoming it they will be crowned with incorruption.

That is NOT a pre-trib rapture doctrine. That is a post-tribulational doctrine by Irenaeus.

as usual post tribbers never have any proof to back of their folly and never answer any of the elementary questions about how they will survive or where scripture days that the people Jesus shed his blood for a required by HIM to go through the testing that He said he would keep us out from , plus a list of at least a dozen other things post tribbers cant answer , as they talk their rubbish about people that they supposedly love ,

keras · Jun 11, 2018

seventysevens said:
No one any where in the world is more obsessed with it than you;
yet you'll be the first one to fall into temptation needing food and water and take the mark you are dreaming about

I do the task that the Lord has laid upon me. Because the truth of the Prophetic Word conflicts with your peculiar beliefs, then you dismiss and reject it, to your disgrace.
I trust the Lord to provide food and water, as He promises: Isaiah 35:15-20, Zechariah 8:12

Take the 'mark'? this shows how confused you are and lacking in knowledge of what the prophesies actually say. Only those who worship the 'beast', will take his mark. Faithful Christians will not. Maybe get killed for it, but there will be a place of safety for them. Revelation 12:14

seventysevens said:
as usual post tribbers never have any proof to back of their folly and never answer any of the elementary questions about how they will survive or where scripture days that the people Jesus shed his blood for a required by HIM to go through the testing that He said he would keep us out from , plus a list of at least a dozen other things post tribbers cant answer , as they talk their rubbish about people that they supposedly love ,

From this rant, I have to doubt your Christianity. True brethren don't make statements like that.

seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
I do the task that the Lord has laid upon me. Because the truth of the Prophetic Word conflicts with your peculiar beliefs, then you dismiss and reject it, to your disgrace.
I trust the Lord to provide food and water, as He promises: Isaiah 35:15-20, Zechariah 8:12

Take the 'mark'? this shows how confused you are and lacking in knowledge of what the prophesies actually say. Only those who worship the 'beast', will take his mark. Faithful Christians will not. Maybe get killed for it, but there will be a place of safety for them. Revelation 12:14

From this rant, I have to doubt your Christianity. True brethren don't make statements like that.

I doubt most everything you say as you do not understand the simple things and all you do is choose to criticize others , love is not in you - true brethren are to look above that sort of thing , when questions are asked of you and you fail to answer or your answers fail , you should be adult enough to just let it go - but you think you have something to prove even though unable to do it , so you revert to attacking people

keras · Jun 11, 2018

Douggg said:
The Tanach deals mostly with Israel, which will go through the seven years.

1thessalonians4:15-18 deals with Christians who are not appointed to wrath.

Why do you constantly promote the Two Peoples Two Promises, doctrine?
Can't you read and understand that there is only One people of God? John 10:16, John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, +
ONLY one chosen people, comprised of faithful Christians of every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

Your unsupported opinion above, is just the kind of false teaching that people have been able to get away with in this modern time. Theories and fables touted as factual.
The Tanach has no relevance to what the Lord has planned for the last days. We know the Jewish scribes have falsified the Law. Jeremiah 8:8

Then you have the effrontery to say 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 refers to people who avoid God's wrath.
What nonsense! They are those who have survived thru all the wrath prophesied, by their faith in God. They have stood strong during it all and when Jesus comes from heaven to take up His Kingly Crown, they will rise to meet Him and be with Him as rulers an priests for the Millennium.

keras · Jun 11, 2018

seventysevens said:
I doubt most everything you say as you do not understand the simple things

You can't understand what I say because your mind is locked into false teachings. Isaiah 29:9-12

OK 77's, give us a simple thing that you believe and prove it with plain scripture. Thanks.

seventysevens · Jun 11, 2018

keras said:
Why do you constantly promote the Two Peoples Two Promises, doctrine?
Can't you read and understand that there is only One people of God? John 10:16, John 17:20-23, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:10-11, +
ONLY one chosen people, comprised of faithful Christians of every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

Your unsupported opinion above, is just the kind of false teaching that people have been able to get away with in this modern time. Theories and fables touted as factual.
The Tanach has no relevance to what the Lord has planned for the last days. We know the Jewish scribes have falsified the Law. Jeremiah 8:8

Then you have the effrontery to say 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 refers to people who avoid God's wrath.
What nonsense! They are those who have survived thru all the wrath prophesied, by their faith in God. They have stood strong during it all and when Jesus comes from heaven to take up His Kingly Crown, they will rise to meet Him and be with Him as rulers an priests for the Millennium.

Just because you do not understand it simply shows that you don't understand it , The Lord has purpose for the Jews , IF the 144000 were not Jews Jesus would not have identified 12000 from the 12 tribes , just because you have no idea who they are does not mean God does not know . You so focused on what ,men's altered teachings that you do not trust God that He knows what He is doing
you have been shown your error and misinterpretation of scripture so many times it be pointless to accept anything you say

Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Similar threads