Losing faith in "faith alone"

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godenver1

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
 

Ken Rank

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Paul said that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. James said faith without works is dead. So... if you put them together we have, "faith comes by hearing God and DOING whatever it is He directed us to do." That is faith... it is NOT belief, belief doesn't require hearing God and doesn't always require action... faith does. That is why when you read the great faith chapter, Hebrews 11... it is a list of people hearing God and then doing whatever He said. He told Noah there was going to be a flood and Noah built an ark.. he HEARD and he DID. God told Abraham to move to a new place... Abraham HEARD and then MOVED. The idea that we have to just believe some fact and NOT act or change accordingly is not real faith. So, there are others who see what you are now starting to see.

Be blessed.
 
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Halbhh

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Ephesians 2 brings it all together --

The complete quote --

"8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
 
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amariselle

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Hi godenver1,

James is a difficult letter, it has been for me, and for many over the years. This is why it truly is important to “rightly divide the word of truth.”

The first thing to notice is who James was written to.

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. My brethren... - James 1:1-2a

So, we can see that James was written to his fellow Jewish believers, “brethren.” Not to unbelievers/unsaved.

Hence, we can understand that James’ letter was written to those already saved, to encourage, exhort, correct and yes, even chastise when necessary, but not to tell them how to be saved, as they were already saved.

In regard to James 2, which so many (myself included) have struggled with, James was indeed chastising these Jews for not living out their faith and loving their brothers and sisters.

As you will notice first, James is abundantly clear that the Law, if one must keep it to be saved, would need to be kept perfectly:

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


So, if the Law is to be kept perfectly, not one part of it can be broken, or the one who does so is guilty of breaking all of it.

12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.


God has indeed showed us astounding mercy in Christ. And we should speak and act in ways that reflect what a great mercy we have been shown in Christ, who took our judgement and penalty upon Himself as our propitiation.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

This is one of the verses that most troubles people, as it seems to be saying that faith can’t save a person who has no works.

This is why it is important that we do not form an entire theology from a few select verses, as we know that many Scriptures plainly state that salvation is not of works.


15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

If we keep reading, we can hopefully begin to understand that the “profit” James is referring to is the profit or assurance that our brothers and sisters gain when we our live out our faith by helping them when they are in need. Faith that is not lived out neither “profits” any one else around us, nor does it “save” any one else around us in their very real, earthly needs.

Remember, James is writing to already saved, Jewish believers, and these verses are written to chastise them because they, being believers, were not living out their faith in that they were not helping their brothers and sisters.


17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

More on what it means when believers do not live out their faith by helping those in need. Explained further as we keep reading.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James issues a challenge here to these Jewish believers. He challenges them to show faith without works. Well, without works, no one can show their faith, as people cannot see the heart, only God can. People see the outward appearance, the actions of others. And so he states “I will show thee my faith by my works.”

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And yes they do, but Jesus did not die for them, He is not their Saviour. (Though they do know perfectly well Who He is, and what awaits them.)

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

How do we “see” Abraham’s faith, since we could not see his heart. By his willingness to offer his son Issac.

It’s very important to remember here that Abraham had been declared righteous in the sight of God years before the moment he was prepared to offer up Issac. Abraham had believed God’s promise of a son and descendants and ultimately the Gospel (which Scripture confirms was preached to Abraham) and by his faith in God’s promise, God imputed righteousness to him.


23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

And so, by the willingness of faithful Abraham to even offer up the son that God had promised him all of his descendants would come through, (believing that God would remain faithful to His promise and could raise Issac from the dead) Abraham showed his faith.

We should not miss that this is also pointing to Christ, as God Himself provided the sacrifice in that moment.


24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Yes, we human beings, who cannot see the heart, do indeed “see” another’s faith by their works. Often, people need to see this, as they will very likely doubt if someone says they have faith and then they do nothing to show it, especially when they even neglect to help those in need.

I hope you continue to “search the Scriptures”. It is so important that we seek to understand more difficult passages like this in light of other verses in Scripture that are more clear, because Scripture never contradicts itself.

Also, we must remember who the Scripture was addressed to as we seek to properly understand the context.
 
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Danielwright2311

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Your good deeds are the proof to your salvation, but there not your salvation.

If you are converted into a new being then you will be led by the holy spirit

Then you will work good deeds, but not for salvation only because you have been converted and have a good clean heart to do good deeds.

The good you do is the validation to your salvation, its the proof.
 
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Doug Melven

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I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.
Not just the church, but to anyone who is not God.
If you read the whole chapter note how many times this hypothetical person is asked to show his faith, and how many times he says he has faith.

Also, just telling someone you have faith does not necessarily mean you have faith.
If someone told you they had a million dollars in the bank and then they asked if they could borrow money for food, would you believe they had a million dollars in the bank? Of course not.
 
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HereIStand

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Our faith is our faith, but it's based on the promises of God. If it hinges on a level of social work on our part, then we can never know if we've crossed the threshold. Remember the scene in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde where Dr. Jekyll ponders all of his good works. He looks down and has changed (involuntarily) into Mr. Hyde.
 
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HypnoToad

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
One has to realize that Paul and James sometimes use similar terms for different things.
Justification by Faith - Did James Contradict Paul
that should explain it
 
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FireDragon76

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Our faith is our faith, but it's based on the promises of God. If it hinges on a level of social work on our part, then we can never know if we've crossed the threshold. Remember the scene in Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde where Dr. Jekyll ponders all of his good works. He looks down and has changed (involuntarily) into Mr. Hyde.

Living out faith isn't supposed to be so introspective in the magisterially Protestant traditions ("are you really born again?", being a good example of introspection). That was a later thing that came about due to modernity and pietism ("the world is confusing so faith must be relegated to a private, individual sphere"). So you can't blame Anglicans/Lutherans for something that was in reality an innovation.

Catholicism has its own issues, and isn't a panacea to the issues of Protestantism. They just play a (dangerous) shell game with epistemology.
 
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mark kennedy

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
James isn't talking about a works righteousness (a righteousness based on works). He is talking about works of righteousnrss, which are the fruit if salvation not the roots. In the church James is addressing, the rich are mistreating the poor. Something he tells the they wouldn't do had they fulfilled the royal law and loved their neighbor as themselves. Paul deals with the same problem in 1 Corinthians 11 where the rich gut drunk and stuffed their faces while the poor went hungry. Paul says that some of you are sick and some of you sleep (died). James is saying, is this even saving faith? They had been Christians for decades and they still don't have the defining characteristic of discipleship, the disciples love one for another.

So you are saved for good works not by them, they are the fruits not the roots. The roots are justification by grace through faith, not works, lest any man should boast.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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1stcenturylady

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Good for you. Your mind is opening to truth, rather than fallible church dogma.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If you decontextualize faith from a sacramental life, an inherently embodied spirituality, then maybe that would be so. Lutherans don't do this, however. By "faith alone" we do not mean a purely notional faith, but a faith that is received in the sacraments administered by the gathered community. That implies relationships that nurture trust and accountability.



Let me turn this question on its head. Why not help the poor, if you have nothing to lose by doing so?

You see, deep down Lutherans do not believe human nature itself is evil. We were made for good works, and Christ frees us to do good works. Not to earn our place in heaven, but to be the eusocial creatures we were created to be.

Human nature is not evil? If that is so, why did Jesus bother to come?

No, friend, we need to be born again, BECAUSE the flesh is carnal - bad. Flesh being our human nature since Adam sinned.

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 
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Traveling teacher

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anytime you look at a doctrine you have to use the entire text in context
and the entire bible....front to back

you also must pray and listen to the Holy Spirit
anyone can cut and paste half a scripture and twist it to make it look true
when it is only half true

faith alone....has been used for 100s of years
to Love God is the greatest commandment
to love your neighbor is next to it
james specifically says faith alone is not enough......
demons believe
james 2:19-20

many people have faith in something even in God
but dont have love
example:
sampson - lot of faith, very little love
jonah - again faith but not love of your neighbor

even hitler had faith in his army or himself ....but was motivated by hate

1 corinthians 13
if you have a lot of faith and no Love you are basically worthless
in the kingdom of God
 
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Albion

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".
Many people misunderstand the Epistle of James. I urge you to look into the meaning, check Bible commentaries, and study the matter more closely so that you are not one of them.
 
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HypnoToad

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You see, deep down Lutherans do not believe human nature itself is evil.
Maybe that's what the liberal synods believe, but it's certainly not all Lutherans.

From the WELS (a conservative Lutheran synod) site:
"Since [Adam & Eve's fall into sin] all people are conceived and born in sin, desire to do what is evil, and are dead spiritually."
https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/
 
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amariselle

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I am starting to lose faith in it too. If we are all saved simply by faith, then we really do not have an incentive to be decent people at all. We would already have our one way ticket to Heaven and can use it as a license to sin since we're already saved no matter what.

Actually, Scripture has much to say about that. Romans 5, Romans 6 & Romans 7

Also, we know that God chastises His children. And that is not something we should take lightly, nor would we ever want to be ashamed at Christ’s coming, knowing we did little or nothing after receiving, by faith, so great a salvation.

It is interesting also that so many people think that believing that we are saved by grace, through faith and not of works, knowing salvation is a gift, would somehow just cause one to become unloving, careless, lazy and ungrateful. He who has been forgiven much loves much! And the strength of sin is the Law, not grace.

A person who truly understands the amazing and undeserved gift of salvation, bought for us with the precious blood of Christ, understands that such a precious gift should never be used as a “license to sin.” Making up rules, putting people back under the Law or condemnation, loading them down with heavy burdens, that will do nothing but cause a person to be endlessly caught up in their own obedience and “good works”, looking to themselves for salvation, and not to Christ alone. (I know, I’ve been there). It brings either pride or hopelessness, probably both.

Why help the poor? We're already going to Heaven. Why not start a war with a third world country? We're saved! Why do anything at all that requires sacrifice? My faith is already good enough!

Honestly, that doesn’t sound like the response of one who truly understands the Gospel. Could you imagine yourself saying that to Jesus? Telling Him, “thank you Lord for saving me, now I get to go out and do horrendous things and I will, because I have my ticket to Heaven.”

Without reward or punishment, there would be no incentive or accountability for our actions.

Really? So it’s not enough to know how much we’ve been forgiven. The joy of our salvation is not enough to motivate us to serve and honour the one that saved us? We need more rules and punishments?

How did that work out for OT Israel? Did the Law save them? If so, why does anyone even need Jesus?

Unless I'm missing something here, I'm losing faith in this whole protestant excuse to play by the world's rules when it comes to finding success.

I have no idea what that last paragraph even means.
 
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Inkfingers

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Faith not works is simply saying that it is the conviction not the act which saves. People can act for all manner of reasons but its the reason for the act, not the act itself, which makes the difference.

And that conviction can only come through God putting it in us - our salvation is HIM recreating US, not US recreating ourselves. That's the grace part.

All faith leads to works, but not all works come through faith. Works that do not come from faith are Babel (humans trying to create paradise on earth without God) or just a smokescreen by deceitful people wearing a mask.
 
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DamianWarS

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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

I see faith as both the things we believe and the things we do. Belief without action is a tree without fruit and a branch without fruit according to John 15 is cut down. If our entire faith is based on only belief then it would be fruitless and cut down with complete loss. So yes, by Faith alone but that faith is inseparably mixed with the things we believe and the things we do.
 
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I have always been taught growing up that we are justified before God by faith alone, and not works. However, the more I read James 2, the more I believe the Catholic Church is correct in its soteriology as opposed to Anglican/Lutheran soteriology.

James 2:21 following:
21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend.24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

It literally says "...considered righteous by what they (you) do and not by faith alone".

I've heard that this passage refers to how the Church can tell if one has genuine faith, as opposed to faith/justification before God. Where is this distinction found in the text? It seems that you have to read more into the text than is there to arrive at that conclusion.

Here's a second, even more clear translation:

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
Question is, if he did not have the faith, would he not have done the actions? Was it because of his faith that actions out of obedience sprung?

Here's another scenario to consider. If you say your a follower of Christ and know Him (Calling yourself a Christian) -- And just doing the actions to please your parents or to make yourself look good, those actions will not save you, you are NOT truly saved simply from those actions.

Without faith you will not know God.
Your actions you do should come out of you naturally if your saved by your faith. Out of the sheer love you have in your heart you have for Jesus simply because you know and trust in Him alone.
Its through this, your absolute WILLINGNESS and WANT to cause actions which pleases God due to the fact your saved, should come out of you.

If you have no desire to take those actions, chances are your not saved to begin with with no desire to take action.

So, faith and action do indeed work together.
Your desire to take action should naturally happen if your saved. But its not the actions which save you, its the actions and most importantly, the desire of WANTING to do those actions which shows you are saved. For example, getting baptised.
 
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