Sanctification

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,493
761
✟120,508.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
The new covenant talked about these places has not yet come to pass. Certain things just aren’t true yet. For example people don’t automatically believe in God but still have to be taught.
Good Point!
So, in the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) do you think Jacob's (Israel's) justification and sanctification is a type of miracle that happens in a fleeting moment or only over weeks and months? My inclination is that this New Covenant with Y'isra'el is possible in no small measure because 'ha satan' has been removed and no longer is a deceiver and adversary to the house of Jacob and the house of Judah.

The Law is part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is not part of the New Covenant.
Good Point!
Yeshua said, "A new command I give you:" (John 13:34) He didn't say, "A new covenant I give you:"
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
No and no. The new covenant talked about these places has not yet come to pass. Certain things just aren’t true yet. For example people don’t automatically believe in God but still have to be taught.

the Law is part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is not part of the New Covenant.

yes. Probably long before the last days
So what does the LAW of the New Covenant look like?
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
So what does the LAW of the New Covenant look like?

There are lots of direct contradictions in the answers thus far. One must assume that the 'new' covenant has no law. :)
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,493
761
✟120,508.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
So what does the LAW of the New Covenant look like?
There are lots of direct contradictions in the answers thus far. One must assume that the 'new' covenant has no law. :)
So, are you (HBL) saying the new covenant has no 'law' or 'LAW' depending on one's interpretation of any implied difference between 'law' (man-made legalism) and 'LAW' (God's LAW) ?

So, we understand that according to HBL's reckoning it will be Mashiach's third coming to earth (not first or second coming to earth). Is it then that HBL believes that Mashiach of Y'isra'el finally fulfills the LAW/law? As Daniel 9:26 reads, "an anointed one (the Messiah) will be cut off" preventing Mashiach from fulfilling the LAW/law at his first and second coming?? Is this how HBL interprets His third coming as "fulfilling" the LAW/law? There are some Messianic Jews that believe there will still be animals sacrificed in the Temple after Mashiach returns as KING of kings and LORD of lords.


Maybe or maybe not the reason that HBL sees this discussion as contradictory is differences in MJs understanding of whether Yeshua is referring to God's LAW or just the law(s) of man-made legalism or both? Some translations don't capitalize law; while other translations do capitalize Law(LAW) . Hopefully, HBL will clarify so as to diminish/eliminate what he sees as "direct contradictions" in how MJs interpret LAW/law in the following scripture (e.g. verse 17) after Mashiach's third coming. ...

Matthew 5:17-19
17 So, Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law/law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one tiny letter or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all takes place.
19 Therefore whoever abolishes one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever keeps them and teaches them, this person will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If these verses are too controversial even within Messianic Judaism i understand if HBL prefers not to offer his interpretation of them in verse 17.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
So, are you (HBL) saying the new covenant has no 'law' or 'LAW' depending on one's interpretation of any implied difference between 'law' (man-made legalism) and 'LAW' (God's LAW) ?

So, we understand that according to HBL's reckoning it will be Mashiach's third coming to earth (not first or second coming to earth). Is it then that HBL believes that Mashiach of Y'isra'el finally fulfills the LAW/law? As Daniel 9:26 reads, "an anointed one (the Messiah) will be cut off" preventing Mashiach from fulfilling the LAW/law at his first and second coming?? Is this how HBL interprets His third coming as "fulfilling" the LAW/law? There are some Messianic Jews that believe there will still be animals sacrificed in the Temple after Mashiach returns as KING of kings and LORD of lords.


Maybe or maybe not the reason that HBL sees this discussion as contradictory is differences in MJs understanding of whether Yeshua is referring to God's LAW or just the law(s) of man-made legalism or both? Some translations don't capitalize law; while other translations do capitalize Law(LAW) . Hopefully, HBL will clarify so as to diminish/eliminate what he sees as "direct contradictions" in how MJs interpret LAW/law in the following scripture (e.g. verse 17) after Mashiach's third coming. ...

Matthew 5:17-19
17 So, Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law/law or the prophets. I have not come to destroy them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one tiny letter or one stroke of a letter will pass away from the law until all takes place.
19 Therefore whoever abolishes one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever keeps them and teaches them, this person will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If these verses are too controversial even within Messianic Judaism i understand if HBL prefers not to offer his interpretation of them in verse 17.
Without the law there is no definition or process of sanctification. So, following your though process here, I would like to add, that there must be a law in effect or there is no due process of the same said law. Yeshua's purpose vanishes. The definition of sin vanishes.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Without the law there is no definition or process of sanctification. So, following your though process here, I would like to add, that there must be a law in effect or there is no due process of the same said law. Yeshua's purpose vanishes. The definition of sin vanishes.

If the 'new' covenant has no law, then the previously existing Law remains in place, because it has not been prorogued or revoked in order to be of no effect. Circumcision of the heart is, as already explained on here, the means of sanctification (as in Acts 2:37); it is not a replacement of the original Covenant and Law. Sanctification is the result of circumcision of the heart - it makes the truth of G_d come alive in our hearts, by which we find salvation only in Yeshua, as in the circumcision of the hearts of the Jews in Acts 2. They were still under the Covenant and Law, and that only changed, finally, when the Temple was destroyed, but the Covenant and the Law remained, even if a part of it could no longer be carried out; the Jews had lived for years with no Temple - they were quite used to it, in fact, and all the more appreciative of it when next a Temple was built, as in Ezra etc.

What changed from Tanach to Christian Testament, is that the long awaited Messiah has arrived to show us that we can repent, and be circumcised in the heart, instead of sacrificing animals, and circumcision of the heart, being an action of the heart, means that the Priestly Sacrificial system, is now of no effect because there is no Temple, at this point in time. No one in the Bible says, if read properly, that Messiah's arrival heralded a new Covenant there and then. Should a Temple be erected, then the Priestly Sacrificial system would immediately restart, and the complete Law would be in effect, once again. Should that happen and we have this 'new' covenant which has no Law, we Messianics would have quite a choice to make - to be law full, or lawless?

1 Cor. 13 gives an excellent view of circumcision of the heart, and what its real effect should be, as does Acts 2. See in particular Paul's words in vs 9-13. Ezekiel points to the same, as does Hebrews - but it is not now, it is clearly yet to be, but 'yet to be' does not imply throwing everything out from the Covenant and Law - it means that in G_d's good time we shall see the perfect, because when he comes to rule, there will be perfection - all will know scripture in their heart. There will be no more teaching your brother or sister about G_d, all will know it as the waters cover the sea. There will be no sin, so no need for sacrifices in heaven. There will be no sanctification, because that will have happened already. There will be no need for the Covenant or the Law because his true, new Covenant, found in the tail end of Revelation will be in effect. It is to this that many texts in scripture point, from Abraham onwards. Now, we see as through a glass, darkly, then we shall see [G_d] face to to face (look up where else that phrase occurs!

As Paul rightly says, we need to give up the milk and start eating the meat. We need to re-read 1 Cor. 13:11 - we all chatter about this like children, whilst the unlocked scripture tells 'grown ups' of the unfolding brilliance of G_d's plan for us, the real meat with which to get to grips.

PS 1 Cor. 13 has absolutely nothing to do with weddings in our world! It is about G_d's plan, unfolding before us.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
A list of just about every name in the Christian Testament - which of them wrote about a New Covenant, in as many words?


Agabus
Prophet who prophesied that a three-year famine would occur in Judea and Jerusalem (Acts 11). Also prophesied the apostle Paul would be bound and arrested in Jerusalem (Acts 21).

Andrew
Fisherman who was one of the first two disciples Jesus choose to follow him and become an apostle. Brother of Simon Peter. Lived in Bethsaida when Jesus called him.

Annas
At the time of Jesus' arrest Annas (Ananus ben Seth) was a former High Priest (6 - 15 A.D.) and likely the president of the Sanhedrin. Although High Priests were to serve for life Annas was removed from office by Valerius Gratus (15 - 26 A.D.), the Roman procurator of Judea. Annas was father-in-law of the High Priest Caiaphas (18-36 A.D.). Jesus was first taken to the court of Annas after his betrayal and arrest in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18).



Apollos
A Jew born in Alexandria who knew the Scriptures very well and was a good speaker. Aquila and Priscilla instructed him regarding Jesus Christ (Acts 18:24-28). Met the apostle Paul in Corinth and was with him when Paul wrote his epistle to the Ephesians.

Barabbas
Robber, murderer whom Pontius Pilate wanted to condemn to death instead of Jesus.

Barnabas
Name means "son of consolation." He was a Levite who lived on the island of Cyprus. Sold land to give money to the early church. Brought Paul to the apostles at a time when everyone was rejecting him. Traveled with Paul on his first missionary journey. He was a cousin of of Mark, one of the 4 gospel writers.

Caiaphas
Roman-appointed High Priest and Sadducee who was son-in-law of a former high priest named Annas (6 - 15 A.D.). Served as High Priest at Jerusalem's temple from 18 to 36 A.D. and ruled longer than any other priest in New Testament times. Hated Jesus and plotted with other priests and elders to have him killed "by trickery" (Matthew 26:5, NKJV). Jesus appeared before him after his arrest in order to 'officially' be condemned to death (Matthew 26, Mark 14, Luke 22). The disciples also appeared before Caiaphas in regard to teaching the truth (Acts 4).

Cornelius
Roman centurion, living at Caesarea, who became the first gentile (non-Jew) to be baptized and become a Christian.

Dorcas Also called Tabitha.
A Christian widow, living in Joppa, whom Peter brought back from the dead (Acts 9).

Elizabeth
Wife of Zacharias who was a cousin of Mary, Jesus' mother. She was healed of being barren and gave birth to John the Baptist.

Eutychus
A young man in Troas who fell through an open window while listening to the apostle Paul teach. Paul brought the young man back from the dead (Acts 20).

Felix
Roman Procurator of Judea from 52 to 60 A.D. The apostle Paul is sent to Felix after he caused a riot at Jerusalem's temple (Acts 21). Governor Felix, in spite of Paul's innocence, keeps him a Caesarea prison for 2 years hoping to be bribed to release him (Acts 24:26-27). In 60 A.D. Felix is replaced as Procurator by Porcius Festus.

Festus
Roman Procurator of Judea from 60 to 62 A.D. Hears the case against the apostle Paul after Governor Felix has had him in prison for 2 years. As a Roman citizen Paul asserts his right to have his case heard by Caesar in Rome. Festus agrees to send Paul to Rome.


Gamaliel
Well-known Pharisaic Rabbi and grandson of the also famous Rabbi Hillel. Taught a very young Saul (apostle Paul - Acts 22:3). When apostles were brought before the Sanhedrin he wisely counseled them to "leave them alone" lest they might find THEMSELVES fighting against God (Acts 5)!

Herod
Herod the Great, the son of Antipater (who started the Herodian dynasty of rule), was made tetrarch of Jerusalem/Galilee in 41 B.C. by Mark Antony. In 37 B.C. Herod is made King of Judea by the Romans. Began to repair and restore Jerusalem's Temple in 20 B.C. Known for his cruelty, he ordered the slaughter of males two years old and younger around Bethlehem in an attempt to kill baby Jesus.

Herod Antipas
, upon the death of his father Herod the Great, becomes tetrarch of Galilee and Perea around 4 B.C. When condemned by John the Baptist for marrying a relative he throws John in prison. Herod, because of a promise made to Salome (his wife Herodias' daughter by previous marriage) who pleased him with a dance, has John the Baptist beheaded. Herod questions, then mocks Jesus just before he is sent to the cross.

Herod Agrippa, grandson of Herod the Great, takes over rulership when Herod Antipas dies in 39 A.D. To please the Jews has James, the brother of John, murdered and throws Peter in prison. God sends the angel of the Lord to kill Herod in 44 A.D.

James
(the Greater)
This James, brother of the apostle John, is also called 'James the Greater' to distinguish him from the other disciple named James (who is the son of Alpheus). One of Jesus' original 12 disciples.

James
(the Less) This James is also called 'James the Less' to distinguish him from the other disciple named James (who is John's brother). One of Jesus' original 12 disciples.

Jesus
Son of G_d. Messiah

John
Brother of James (the Greater) and author of one of the 4 gospels. One of Jesus' original 12 disciples. Also wrote three other New Testament books and the book of Revelation. Asked Jesus, during the last Passover, who it was who would betray him.

John the Baptist
John, a Nazarite from birth, was born 6 months before Jesus. His ministry lasted from 26 to 29 A.D. His mission was to prepare the people for the ministry of Jesus. Was beheaded by Herod Antipas.

Joseph
Husband of Mary and foster-father of Jesus. Was a just man who died sometime after Jesus' 12th birthday.

Joseph
of Arimathea A rich member of the Sanhedrin who secretly believed in Jesus. After Jesus' death got Pontius Pilate to give him the body. Both Joseph and Nicodemus wrap Jesus' body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury him in a brand new tomb Joseph made for himself. (Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, John 19).


Judas Iscariot
One of Jesus' original 12 disciples who, although a thief, carried the group's money bag. Judas betrayed Jesus to the chief priests for thirty pieces of silver. After his betrayal the remorse of his sin leads him to kill himself.

Judas
(Thaddaeus) This Judas, one of the original 12 disciples, was also called Lebbaeus or Thaddaeus. Brother of James the Less and Simon (the Canaanite).

Lazarus
Brother of Mary and Martha and a relative of Jesus who lived in Bethany. Jesus resurrected him after he had been in a tomb for four days.

Luke
one of the four gospels and the book of Acts. Traveled with Paul on part of his second and third missionary journeys. Accompanies Paul from Caesarea to Rome in 60 A.D. during what is called Paul's Fourth Missionary Journey. Luke is again with Paul during his final imprisonment in Rome which started in 67 A.D.

Lydia
A Jewish proselyte who was a "seller of purple." She was the apostle Paul's first convert to Christianity in Europe (Acts 16:13-15).

Mark
Was also known as John Mark. He was a cousin of Barnabas. Wrote one of the four gospels. Abruptly left Paul and Barnabas during Paul's first missionary journey.

Mary
Mother of Jesus who was of the lineage of King David. Not counting Jesus, Mary gave birth to four boys and at least two girls (for a family of seven or more children!). After the death and resurrection of Jesus she was taken care of by the apostle John.

Mary Magdalene
Most prominent of Jesus' female disciples. This Mary was the first person to see Jesus alive after his resurrection.

Matthew
One of Jesus' original 12 disciples. The gospel he wrote, in 35 A.D., was the very first book written for the New Testament.

Nathanael
Also called Bartholomew. One of Jesus' original 12 disciples.

Nicodemus
A Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin who, like Joseph of Arimathea, believed in Jesus. He first visits Jesus at night and tells him the Sanhedrin knows he is a teacher from God (John 3). He later defends Jesus in a meeting of the Sanhedrin (John 7:45-53). After Jesus' death on the cross he helps Joseph of Arimathea wrap his body and bury him (John 19:38-42).

Paul
Born around 2 A.D. Originally named Saul. Although a Jew was considered a Roman citizen. Taught by well-known Pharisaic Rabbi Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). Became a zealous Pharisee who persecuted early Christian church (Acts 7-8). Was converted on trip to Damascus and later renamed Paul (Acts 13:9). Worked as tent maker during ministry (Acts 18:2-3). From 33 to 67 A.D. conducted 5 missionary journeys preaching the gospel. Spent a total of about 6 years in prison. Wrote 14 New Testament books. Was martyred, at the age of 66, in Rome.

Peter
Originally named Simon and renamed Peter by Jesus. A married fisherman from Bethsaida who was third person Jesus called to be an apostle (John 1:40-42). He walked on water with Jesus (Matthew 14) and also denied 3 times he knew him (Matthew 26). Was a witness to Jesus' transfiguration (Matthew 17). Raised a widow from the dead (Acts 9). Was rebuked by Apostle Paul for his hypocritical behavior (Galatians 2). Wrote two New Testament books. Died a martyr at the hands of Rome around 67 A.D.

Philip
One of Jesus' twelve apostles. Resided in Bethsaida where also Andrew and Peter lived. Also the name of one of the first 7 men specially chosen by the early church to serve (Acts 6). Was also considered an evangelist. The apostle Paul stayed at Philip's house on his way to Jerusalem (Acts 21:8-10).

Phoebe
A deaconess of the church at Cenchrea. Took apostle Paul's epistle to the Romans to the city of Rome (Romans 16).

Pontius Pilate
Was Roman Prefect (governor) of Judea during the time of Jesus' public ministry and crucifixion. Served as Prefect from 26 to 36 A.D. Thought Jesus was innocent of death but condemned him to the cross due to pressure from Jewish leaders.

Priscilla and Aquila
Husband and wife team who helped instruct Apollos about Jesus Christ (Acts 18). Half the time Priscilla's name is mentioned in scripture it is placed before Aquila's. They meet the apostle Paul for the first time in Corinth toward the end of his second missionary journey (Acts 18). They, like Paul, made a living as tentmakers.

Salome
Was Herodias' daughter by a former husband. Herodias was the wife of Herod Antipas who was tetrarch of Galilee. Though not identified by name in the New Testament the historian Josephus states it was Salome. Her dance before Herod and his birthday guests so pleased him that he offered to give her anything she wanted. On her mother's advice she asks for the head of John the Baptist, who was in Herod's prison (Mark 6). Her wish is granted and she is given John's head on a plate. Salome was also name of apostle John and James' mother who followed Jesus (Matthew 27:56, Mark 15). She is the person who requested from Jesus that her two sons sit next to him in the Kingdom of God (Matthew 20:20-21)


Silas
Also called Silvanus. Accompanied Paul and Barnabas from Jerusalem to Antioch with church decision concerning circumcision and salvation (Acts 15). Traveled with the apostle Paul on his second missionary journey. Delivered to elders in the church the apostle Peter's first epistle (1Peter 5:12).

Simon
Also known as Simon the Canaanite or Simon the Zealot. One of Jesus' original 12 disciples. Was brother of the disciples James the Less and Judas (not Iscariot).

Simon of Cyrene
Person who was seized by Roman soldiers and forced to carry Jesus' cross to Golgotha (Matthew 27:32).

Simon the Sorcerer
Also called Simeon Magus. He was a Samaritan sorcerer who practiced magic and presented himself as being 'great' (Acts 8). Was nominally converted and baptized by Philip. Saw how by the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit was given to believers and thought he could purchase the same power for himself. Was strongly rebuked by Peter for his request. The term Simony, used to denote a person who makes a profit from religious or sacred things, was derived from him.

Stephen
One of original 7 Jerusalem deacons. Was first Christian martyr in 32 A.D. (Acts 6 - 7).

Thaddeus
One of 12 Apostles, also known as Lebbeus or Judas.

Thomas
Also called Didymus. Was one of Jesus' 12 disciples. After Jesus' resurrection, when the other disciples had seen him alive, Thomas refused to believe Jesus was back from the dead until he literally saw and touched his wounds from the cross (Matthew 28:9-10, Luke 24:36-48). Later, Jesus did appear to Thomas and removed all doubts. The term "doubting Thomas" comes from Thomas' disbelief in Jesus' literal resurrection.

Timothy
Lived in Lystra. His mother was a Jew and father was a Greek. Traveled with Paul on most of his second missionary journey, served Paul in Ephesus during third missionary journey (Acts 19:22) and was with him during his imprisonment in Rome (Philemon 1:1). Paul stated that Timothy was specially given the gift to evangelize and defend the truth (1Timothy 4:14, 2Timothy 1:6). He considered Timothy his closest friend and even treated him like a son (2Timothy 2:2-6).

Zacchaeus
A chief tax collector of Jericho who was rich and short. Had to climb a tree to see Jesus walk by. On seeing Zacchaeus Jesus stated he would stay at his house for the night (Luke 19).
 
  • Winner
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,493
761
✟120,508.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Without the law there is no definition or process of sanctification. So, following your though process here, I would like to add, that there must be a law in effect or there is no due process of the same said law. Yeshua's purpose vanishes. The definition of sin vanishes.
My post was trying to understand if what you meant by using all upper case capital letters (LAW) was different than Heber Book List's intent when using all lower case small letters (law). Now that you both use all lower case small letters (law), as does the KJV, indicates you're willing to accept HBL's KJV spelling and any further insight. Hopefully his reply to your above post is sufficient as hopefully was his reply to your post to Open Heart in that she can't discuss this because of this forum's SOP ...
I can’t discuss this without violating the SOP. You may PM me if you wish.
Should a MJ member decide to challenge this forum's theologian it may be better to ask questions like we both have done. If MJs prefer not to argue with HBL they can indicate they're open to agreement in a manner you've chosen like changing LAW to law as you've done in your latest post ... indicating that you're willing to defer to HBL's explanation as this forum's theologian.

Haven't yet read HBL's latest reply so hoping he has provided further insight into your previous question to Open Heart and your post to me. Hopefully, HBL will clarify any uncertainty you may still have with respect to what Yeshua means when He says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17 KJV)
So what does the LAW of the New Covenant look like?
There are lots of direct contradictions in the answers thus far. One must assume that the 'new' covenant has no law. :)
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,925
8,040
✟575,802.44
Faith
Messianic
My post was trying to understand if what you meant by using all upper case capital letters (LAW) was different than Heber Book List's intent when using all lower case small letters (law). Now that you both use all lower case small letters (law), as does the KJV, indicates you're willing to accept HBL's KJV spelling and any further insight. Hopefully his reply to your above post is sufficient as hopefully was his reply to your post to Open Heart in that she can't discuss this because of this forum's SOP ...
Should a MJ member decide to challenge this forum's theologian it may be better to ask questions like we both have done. If MJs prefer not to argue with HBL they can indicate they're open to agreement in a manner you've chosen like changing LAW to law as you've done in your latest post ... indicating that you're willing to defer to HBL's explanation as this forum's theologian.

Haven't yet read HBL's latest reply so hoping he has provided further insight into your previous question to Open Heart and your post to me. Hopefully, HBL will clarify any uncertainty you may still have with respect to what Yeshua means when He says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17 KJV)

so far, clear as mud. No kingdom can exist without LAWS. God has already said His are everlasting. That which Moses wrote on parchment, I can understand they have a time and a place.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,493
761
✟120,508.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Without the law there is no definition or process of sanctification. So, following your thought process here, I would like to add, that there must be a law in effect or there is no due process of the same said law. Yeshua's purpose vanishes. The definition of sin vanishes.
My post was inquiring respectively of Heber Book List (as this forum's theologian) as to his understanding of Matthew 5:17. At no time did i say that there was NOT a 'LAW/ law' after the Mashiach of Y'isra'el returns to earth the third time (as HBL, tampasteve and other MJs believe).

Mention was made by me that some MJs believe there will still be animal sacrifices after the LORD returns the third time to establish His Kingdom on earth. Never did i indicate whether i believe there will or won't be animal sacrifices. Perhaps, HBL can provide some further insight. Rather my post was inquiring about the "direct contradictions" that HBL recognized among MJs and Christians in this thread with respect to a "new covenant" and one's sanctification so as not to cause what may be seen as direct contradictions."

If you are not satisfied with Heber Book List's latest reply you could ask more specific questions instead of making a statement such as: "Without the law there is no definition or process of sanctification" you might consider wording it as: "Without the 'law' is there no definition or process of sanctification?" However, it sounds like both you and HBL agree when it comes to a LAW/law after Mashiach Yeshua returns to earth the third time. I don't disagree, but perhaps you mistakenly think i do.

You might agree that he has already answered your question that the 'law' is still in affect/effect in that the 'law' is not abolished. Perhaps, HBL will elaborate on the details of that 'law' after the LORD returns to the earth the third time.
If the 'new' covenant has no law, then the previously existing Law remains in place, because it has not been prorogued or revoked in order to be of no effect.
My assumption is that the reason HBL may once use only small letters (law) and also capitalize 'Law' in his above post is that they are interchangeable having the same meaning. If not he may explain to you any distinguishing reason why one might prefer one over the other or his take on why you choose to write 'LAW' in an earlier post and again use all capital letters (LAWS).
so far, clear as mud. No kingdom can exist without LAWS. God has already said His are everlasting. That which Moses wrote on parchment, I can understand they have a time and a place.
As explained above i was not stating any theological opinions to Heber Book List ... rather was asking questions for further clarification. You need to direct any opposing opinions if you disagree with HBL's posts as i find no reason to argue or disagree with his posts. In the future, you may want to ask HBL more specific questions (if you disagree or don't understand his replies to you) instead of coming across as if you're challenging/opposing his posts.

If your (clear as mud) is partially with HBL's theology that it will be Yeshua's third time when he returns again to earth you may want to send him a PM if you are confused.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Good Point!
So, in the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) do you think Jacob's (Israel's) justification and sanctification is a type of miracle that happens in a fleeting moment or only over weeks and months? My inclination is that this New Covenant with Y'isra'el is possible in no small measure because 'ha satan' has been removed and no longer is a deceiver and adversary to the house of Jacob and the house of Judah.

Good Point!
Yeshua said, "A new command I give you:" (John 13:34) He didn't say, "A new covenant I give you:"
Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Most manuscripts do not contain the word 'new'.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AbbaLove
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Most of them ie the majority.
Was it the same as was was spoken of here? Are these in all manuscripts?
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How about here?

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
 
Upvote 0

Heber Book List

Theologian [Applied Theology]
Jul 1, 2015
2,609
851
Whippingham, Isle of Wight, England
✟132,416.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Was it the same as was was spoken of here? Are these in all manuscripts?
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

How about here?

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The first section has already been dealt with on this thread. much the same answer will apply to your quotes in the second section, esp. the Hebrews text.

I haven't the time to keep repeating stuff time and again!
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The first section has already been dealt with on this thread. much the same answer will apply to your quotes in the second section, esp. the Hebrews text.

I haven't the time to keep repeating stuff time and again!
So I take it you say Jeremiah does not contain
Jer 31:31 (38:31) ιδου ημεραι ερχονται φησιν κυριος και διαθησομαι τω οικω ισραηλ και τω οικω ιουδα διαθηκην καινην

Heb
02319 חדשׁ chadash khaw-dawsh’
01285 ברית bᵉriyth ber-eeth’
 
Upvote 0

chunkofcoal

Messianic Christian
Sep 30, 2004
1,825
455
✟83,228.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Interesting posts about the 'new' covenant everyone! Wow!

I read an article by a Rabbi about Jeremiah 31 and Christianity's idea of the new covenant and he brought up a couple interesting points - along the lines of those brought up here.
He said that the new covenant is to be a positive development for Israel (see Jeremiah 31) but that the advent of Christianity ushered in a period of darkness for Israel.
He also brought up that in the new covenant, it won't be necessary to teach the knowledge of God amongst the people of Israel but "The advent of Christianity launched the most intense missionary campaign that the world has ever seen."

His mention of the period of darkness for Israel made me think about Luke 21:24.
(Luk 21:24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And his point about Christianity's missionary campaign made me think about this -
(Rom 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So there is more to come! :clap:
Rom 11:26-27 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

And so we need to take to heart what Paul says here:
Rom 11:28-32 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (30) For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (31) Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (32) For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.






 
  • Winner
Reactions: visionary
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums