The name of the beast is 666: euporia (prosperity)

David Kent · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
For example, the papacy never fulfilled the prophecies regarding the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), which could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could order to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so that the Antichrist will not want to ever appear or speak in public again.

Have you ever seen RCs bowing before images of their so called Mary? That image speaks. Have you never heard of the appearances of "Mary" speaking to people?

The head wound was that fall of the empire, but is was revived in the Papacy.

David Kent · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
For in the never-fulfilled Revelation 11:3-12, the Two Witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the Transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the two "olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

The witnesses were also two candlesticks, and we read in the first chapter of Revelation that Candlesticks are witnessing churches.

David Kent · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
How does preterism imagine that Matthew 24:29-31 was fulfilled in 70 AD, or that Joel 2:30-31 was fulfilled at the time of Acts 2, which was decades earlier than 70 AD?

You are wrong that "most of Revelation is Literal" . The whole book is signified Rev. 1:1. That means told by signs or figures or symbols. Just as Jesus signified the manner of Peter's death, not literally but by figure. Just as the Parables were figures.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Peter said This was fulfilled. Yet another one who denies scripture. This was all fulfilled in that day or in the days of that generation that God gave to the Jews to have an opportunity to repent.

Before and during the fall of Jerusalem, there were signs in the sky, recorded by Josephus. Much blood was shed, fire and pillars of smoke from the burning of the temple and the city. (30)
Sun, Moon (and stars) in prophecy refers to people, The high priests and other priests were all killed, (blood) and the priesthood and sacrificed ceased as there was there was no one left qualified to offer sacrifice.(the priesthood was darkened) The great and terrible day of the Lord come, the final destruction of the temple and the Jewish nation. (31)

Those who called on the name of the Lord were saved when they escaped the city as the Lord commanded them to do when they saw the abomination of desolation, that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, Luke 21:20-22, Daniel 12:1.

David Kent · Jun 5, 2018

Post duplicated

David Kent · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
No man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the "beast") in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which says that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he is not the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The papacy has always sat in the Temple of God. Paul said "You are the Temple of the Living God" several times referring to the Church. The papacy claims he sits at the seat at the head of the church, above all that is called god, the host when he is enthroned on the high altar. The early church recognised that the temple in Revelation is not he literal temple, but the true church,where God reigns now.
Daniel 11 is a complete prophecy of the Greek kingdom till the latter days of their rule when Rome defeated them. The willful king who arose at that time was Herod. "Herod the King," Matthew 2:1, etc.

jgr · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
In Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27).

It is not a peace treaty/covenant which is cut off, according to the verse. It was Messiah.

Bible2+ said:
But a future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are militarily defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So this future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

The New Covenant having been completely confirmed and fulfilled by and in Christ, there will be no further future fulfillment. Antichrist is unseen, unsaid, and unknown in the passage. A nonexistent antichrist will not make a peace treaty. Rather, Christ confirmed the New Covenant in His Blood at Calvary (Matthew 26:28). There is no “false Messiah” who will be "cut off" in the passage. There is exclusively Christ, the “true Messiah”, the Prince, who was cut off at Calvary.

Bible2+ said:
This treaty will allow this false "Messiah" and his followers to keep a third Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they and/or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least seven years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that they can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this peace treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the future Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least seven years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler"

There will be no “false Messiah” and no third temple. Jerusalem and the temple were completely destroyed by the Romans and Jews in 70 AD. There will be no animal sacrifices. Christ's final perfect sacrifice at Calvary ended all other sacrifices forever. A nonexistent antichrist will not “cut” any peace treaty, nor appear before any UN, nor confirm any nonexistent peace treaty.

Bible2+ said:
In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the future Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the third temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Christ's final perfect sacrifice at Calvary ended all other sacrifice and oblation for all time. A nonexistent future antichrist will not break any nonexistent treaty, attack any nonexistent third temple, stop any animal sacrifices which Christ stopped long ago, place any nonexistent android in any nonexistent holy place of any nonexistent temple which was destroyed long ago by the Romans and Jews, occupy any nonexistent temple, or begin any mythical reign of terror.

jgr · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Just because wars occurred in the first century AD after Jesus Christ spoke Matthew 24:6 does not make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6 any more than just because much worse wars occurred in the twentieth century AD does not make those wars the fulfillment of Matthew 24:6.

That is a demonstration of a deliberate refusal to recognize and acknowledge stark historical reality. For the war and tribulation of 70 AD were without equal before and after, in the annals of human conflict. The savagery, brutality, and depravity which characterized them were unparalleled before and after, both of Roman to Jew, and of Jew to Jew. Mass crucifixions, mass starvation, and familial cannibalism were but three of the appalling horrors. Misery and suffering were unprecedented before and after. Coupled with these were the spiritual desperation and anguish of a people who considered themselves the chosen of God, awaiting a deliverance that would never come.

Josephus described it thus:
"I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly; that neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries; nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world."

Contemporary Jewish historians concur:
"The scene was now set for the revolt's final catastrophe. Outside Jerusalem, Roman troops prepared to besiege the city; inside the city, the Jews were engaged in a suicidal civil war. In later generations, the rabbis hyperbolically declared that the revolt's failure, and the Temple's destruction, was due not to Roman military superiority but to causeless hatred (sinat khinam) among the Jews (Yoma 9b). While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

Jesus' words could not have been more accurate:
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

jgr · Jun 5, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Similarly, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can be the only instance in Paul's epistles where "naos" refers to an actual, physical temple.

But why restrict Paul's use of "naos" to only his epistles? For he used "naos" in Acts 17:24 to refer to actual, physical temples.

Luke, not Paul, was the author of Acts. He did not draw the same distinction between the spiritual and physical temple that Paul drew in everything that he authored i.e. his epistles.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 refers to a spiritual temple, consistent with Paul's uses of naon/naos everywhere else that he employs them, which are seven other instances in a spiritual context in Corinthians and Ephesians.

Bible2+ · Jun 6, 2018

David Kent said in post #63:

The head wound was that fall of the empire, but is was revived in the Papacy.

Revelation 13:3 could have a dual meaning. It could refer to the revival of a dead, past empire, that is, one of the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1). And at the same time, it could apply, along with Revelation 13:14b, to the revival of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), after he dies from a head wound in an assassination.

Regarding the revival of a dead, past empire, the seven heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent seven empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first five had fallen by the time of the apostle John in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The sixth (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The seventh (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, eighth head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of five empires which had fallen by the time of the apostle John (Revelation 17:8,10-11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the Second Coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist, during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, via "reincarnation", and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

David Kent said in post #63:

Have you never heard of the appearances of "Mary" speaking to people?

Could Marian phenomena of the past be "reinterpreted" by a secretly-apostate, False Prophet pope, in order to help bring some Catholics into his deception? And could Satan even create some future "Marian" phenomena for this purpose? Are most Catholic Christians who believe in the validity of all past Marian phenomena well-schooled enough in Biblical doctrine to be able to recognize any shifts in doctrine which might be parlayed through any future, false apparitions? Or could any such apparitions help instead to lead some Catholic Christians (not to mention other Christians) gently down the road toward the future apostasy (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3)?

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David Kent said in post #64:

The witnesses were also two candlesticks, and we read in the first chapter of Revelation that Candlesticks are witnessing churches.

Revelation 1:12's seven candlesticks, which Jesus Christ was standing among at the time of the apostle John in the first century AD (Revelation 1:13), represented seven, literal, local church congregations which existed at that time in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:20b, Revelation 1:11b) (what is today western Turkey).

There is no connection between these seven candlesticks and the imagery much later of the two candlesticks of the two individual-man witnesses who will prophesy during the latter half of the future Tribulation (Revelation 11:3-12); just as, for example, there is no connection of (actual) identity between the lamb imagery in Revelation 5:6 and the lamb imagery in Revelation 13:11.

That is, just because a symbol represents one thing in one verse in the Bible does not mean that it has to represent that same thing in every other verse in the Bible. For example, while a lion represents Satan in 1 Peter 5:8, a lion represents Jesus Christ in Revelation 5:5.

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David Kent said in post #65:

You are wrong that "most of Revelation is Literal" . The whole book is signified Rev. 1:1.

Revelation 1:1,3 does not mean that Jesus Christ in Revelation chapters 6 to 22 is expressing the events of the future Tribulation, and of the subsequent Second Coming, Millennium, and other events, only through symbolic references, instead of indicating these events almost entirely literally. For just as the original Greek word (deiknuo: G1166) translated as "show" in Revelation 1:1 does not have to refer to something being shown through symbolic references, but can refer to something being shown literally (Matthew 8:4), so the original Greek word (semaino: G4591) translated as "signified" in Revelation 1:1 does not have to refer to something being indicated through symbolic references, but can refer to something being indicated literally (Acts 25:27).

David Kent said in post #65:

The great and terrible day of the Lord come . . .

The future Day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which will not occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

David Kent said in post #65:

Those who called on the name of the Lord were saved when they escaped the city as the Lord commanded them to do when they saw the abomination of desolation, that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, Luke 21:20-22, Daniel 12:1.

Regarding Luke 21:20-22, when Jesus Christ says: "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), He is referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says: "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, He is referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

So Luke 21:20-23 is not referring to 70 AD, nor (as is sometimes claimed) to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14). Instead, Luke 21:20-23 is referring to what will happen at the midpoint of the future Tribulation, when the future Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the non-Christian Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

David Kent said in post #65:

Those who called on the name of the Lord were saved when they escaped the city as the Lord commanded them to do when they saw the abomination of desolation, that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, Luke 21:20-22, Daniel 12:1.

Regarding Daniel 12:1, it will occur right after the future Tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the Tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the Two Witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked by the Antichrist and the world's armies immediately before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the Second Coming (Zechariah 14:5).

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David Kent said in post #67:

The papacy has always sat in the Temple of God. Paul said "You are the Temple of the Living God" several times referring to the Church.

While the Church as a whole is indeed a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it is not the only temple of God. For it coexisted with the literal, second temple building which was in Jerusalem in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), just as the Church coexisted, and still coexists today, with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus Christ's individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the Church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all of these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, third, earthly, literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This third temple will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the second temple was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21), and even at the time of the early Church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the third temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). This is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in His temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the second temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This is not to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old Covenant Mosaic law third temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God, because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6), because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus Christ and His once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

Bible2+ · Jun 6, 2018

jgr said in post #69:

For the war and tribulation of 70 AD were without equal before and after . . .

World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the six million Jews who were so horribly killed in the Holocaust. And not even World War II fulfilled the detailed Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will occur in our future.

For example, the world will not experience the seven last plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled in our future.

At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on those people who will have received the future Antichrist's mark, and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the second vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the third vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the fourth vial, mankind will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future Tribulation.

At the fifth vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the sixth vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9), the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together to fight against YHWH God Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12), such as the vast armies of China and India, can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16), which is Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel. Once the armies of the east have gathered there, as only a staging area, along with all of the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they will not wage battle there. That is why the Bible does not refer to a "battle" of Armageddon. Instead, the armies will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the seventh vial, right before Jesus Christ returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20). And 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The seventh vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

jgr said in post #69:

[Re: 70 AD]
Mass crucifixions, mass starvation, and familial cannibalism were but three of the appalling horrors. Misery and suffering were unprecedented before and after.

Regarding starvation and familial cannibalism, the same occurred during the siege of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Jeremiah 19:9, Lamentations 4:10), and before that during the siege of the Israelite city of Samaria in 722 BC (2 Kings 6:25-29). The future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be so bad as "was not since the beginning of the world" (Matthew 24:21).

jgr said in post #69:

Coupled with these were the spiritual desperation and anguish of a people who considered themselves the chosen of God, awaiting a deliverance that would never come.

As subsequently at Masada and during the Holocaust.

The future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be so bad as "was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

This can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord had not already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that He will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15).

And the Lord will return "immediately after" the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the destruction of the cities of the nations during the seventh vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord had not shortened the number of days of the future Tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the seventh vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at His return) brought on by the ten kings of the future Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the seventh vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

jgr · Jun 6, 2018

Bible2+ said:
World War II was worse than 70 AD, even just for the six million Jews who were so horribly killed in the Holocaust.

Horribly, yes. But not this horribly:
“So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies.” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 5 Chapter 11).

Or this:
“They also invented terrible methods of torments to discover where any food was, and they were these to stop up the passages of the privy parts of the miserable wretches, and to drive sharp stakes up their fundaments...” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 5 Chapter 10).

Or this:
"While the holy house was on fire, every thing was plundered that came to hand, and ten thousand of those that were caught were slain; nor was there a commiseration of any age, or any reverence of gravity, but children, and old men, and profane persons, and priests were all slain in the same manner; so that this war went round all sorts of men, and brought them to destruction, and as well those that made supplication for their lives, as those that defended themselves by fighting. The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword. The people also that were left above were beaten back upon the enemy, and under a great consternation, and made sad moans at the calamity they were under; the multitude also that was in the city joined in this outcry with those that were upon the hill. And besides, many of those that were worn away by the famine, and their mouths almost closed, when they saw the fire of the holy house, they exerted their utmost strength, and brake out into groans and outcries again: Perea did also return the echo, as well as the mountains round about [the city,] and augmented the force of the entire noise. Yet was the misery itself more terrible than this disorder; for one would have thought that the hill itself, on which the temple stood, was seething hot, as full of fire on every part of it, that the blood was larger in quantity than the fire, and those that were slain more in number than those that slew them; for the ground did no where appear visible, for the dead bodies that lay on it; but the soldiers went over heaps of those bodies, as they ran upon such as fled from them." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6 Chapter 5).

Given the macabre scenario of choosing between an execution method in 70 AD and an execution method in World War II, there would not have been a Jew alive during the former time who would not have chosen execution by bullet or gas during the latter.

Bible2+ said:
Regarding starvation and familial cannibalism, the same occurred during the siege of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Jeremiah 19:9, Lamentations 4:10), and before that during the siege of the Israelite city of Samaria in 722 BC (2 Kings 6:25-29).

Josephus as a Jewish historian would have been thoroughly familiar with all of the significant historical events of the nation. His verdict:
“Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Preface)

Bible2+ said:
As subsequently at Masada and during the Holocaust.

Unlike Masada and the Holocaust, 70 AD marked the annihilation of the nation, and the final momentous event in the transition from the old covenant to the New. It was a time of despair and anguish unsurpassed before or since.

Bible2+ said:
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

The war was not limited to Jerusalem, but involved large parts of the whole of Judea. For the sake of the elect -- the Christian believers who had heeded Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:16 and fled Jerusalem and Judea to the mountains -- the duration of the destruction was shortened. Had it not been, eventually even those survivors would have been engulfed by, and perished in, the conflict.

Jesus' words could not have been more accurate:
Matthew 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

jgr · Jun 7, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

Debunked in post #68.

Bible2+ · Jun 7, 2018

jgr said in post #71:

Unlike Masada and the Holocaust, 70 AD marked the annihilation of the nation . . .

70 AD was not the annihilation of the Jewish nation in the sense of the Jewish people. Otherwise, subsequently, there would never have been Masada and the Holocaust. Also, the Jewish people would never have reestablished their state in 1948 AD, shortly after their unprecedented suffering during the Holocaust.

But Ezekiel 21:27a could include the awful meaning that Jerusalem (Ezekiel 21:22) must be overturned, in the sense of completely destroyed, three separate times: once in 586 BC (by the Babylonians), then again in 70 AD (by the Romans), and then again at some point in our future (by the Antichrist), right before Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Ezekiel 21:27b, Zechariah 14).

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Some people believe that Amos 9:15 applies to the reestablishment of Israel in 1948 AD. But Amos 9:15 could refer to what will happen only at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11). For Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the taking of the northern kingdom of Israel into captivity (Amos 8:14, Amos 5:27) by the Assyrians in 722 BC. And so Amos 9:14-15 was spoken before the southern kingdom of Judah was taken into captivity by the Babylonians in 586 BC. But Amos 9:14-15 did not apply to the post-Babylonian-captivity restoration of the Jews to their land in 538 BC, for that restoration was subsequently destroyed by a Roman-empire army in 70 AD. So Amos 9:14-15 does not necessarily apply to the subsequent restoration of the Jews to their land in 1948 AD either. This restoration could be destroyed by the Baathists in a future war (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath") at the start of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. Jesus Christ will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Luke 1:32b-33, Isaiah 9:7, Amos 9:11) at His Second Coming (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21), which will occur immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus Christ's cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed His curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Him (Matthew 21:43). For a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at His first coming, insofar as it still mistakenly rejects Jesus and still mistakenly considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was only a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the non-Christian nation-state of Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished by humans in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' Second Coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

But Jesus Christ's Kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

jgr said in post #71:

. . . 70 AD marked the annihilation of the nation . . .

Luke 21:24 was not fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD. For Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which non-Christian Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

Similarly, when the apostle Paul says: "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become Christians, which will not happen until near the end of the future Tribulation, right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Romans 11:26).

Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all of the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed, and weep, and become Christians, when they see Jesus, and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Jewish Christians today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Jewish and Gentile Christians become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming had been religious Jews, they will not continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that...

Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the future Tribulation does not mean that no Gentiles will be added to the Church during the subsequent Millennium, because they will be (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" does not have to mean "no more after that". For example, even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it does not matter that the new Christians during the Millennium will be added to the Church/bride (of Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage of the Church to Jesus Christ occurred at His Second Coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size sometime after her wedding.

jgr said in post #71:

For the sake of the elect -- the Christian believers who had heeded Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:16 and fled Jerusalem and Judea to the mountains -- the duration of the destruction was shortened.

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), this does not have to mean first century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile Christians, not just Jewish Christians. The Church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the Church, whether Gentiles or Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the future temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to Christians around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, divinely-protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, in the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they should not carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

jgr · Jun 7, 2018

Bible2+ said:
The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus Christ's cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed His curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected Him (Matthew 21:43). For a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9).

In Luke 13:5-9, an Israel who remained unrepentant was compared to a fig tree which remained unfruitful. Both would be destroyed.

In Matthew 21:19, the unfruitful fig tree was destroyed.

In Matthew 24:32-34, the fig tree (and all the trees, Luke 21:29-30) budded, but Israel remained unrepentant. The fig tree became the herald and harbinger of Israel's impending destruction, which occurred within the generation (Matthew 24:34).

The fig tree symbolized death, not rebirth.

Bible2+ said:
Luke 21:24 was not fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD. For Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the future Antichrist's literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Luke 21:24 was fulfilled precisely and entirely in 70 AD. Jerusalem was literally trod underfoot:
"the soldiers went over heaps of those bodies, as they ran upon such as fled from them." (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6 Chapter 5). The book of Revelation had not yet been written.

Bible2+ said:
The treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which non-Christian Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the second half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

Jerusalem was trodden down of the Romans until their time was fulfilled in God's curtailment of the conflict to preserve His elect. (Matthew 24:22). The fulfillment was precise and complete. The book of Revelation had not yet been written.

Bible2+ said:
Immediately after the future Tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus Christ Himself from heaven (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all of the still-living, unsaved, elect Jews will be ashamed, and weep, and become Christians, when they see Jesus, and realize that He truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time, just as when Jews become Christians now they become part of the Church. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will all become part of the Church by receiving some measure of God's Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as Jewish Christians today become part of the Church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both Jewish and Gentile Christians become part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the Jews who will become Christians at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming had been religious Jews, they will not continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that...

The Abrahamic genome is already ubiquitous in the human planetary population, as acknowledged and applauded by the Jewish religiocultural community itself. Thus there are not, and will not be, genetically distinguishable Jews. There now are only, and will only be, believers and unbelievers; those with, and those without, Christ.

Abraham lineage

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

Bible2+ said:
Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), this does not have to mean first century AD Judaea.

The future Antichrist's persecution of the Church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist sits in the future temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the Church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the Church (not in hiding) will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). So the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to Christians around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents different people in the Church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents different, divinely-protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the Church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15), they should flee to places in the wilderness east of Judaea, in the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the Church who will be living in places other than Judaea should flee to other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of canned food, bottled water, warm clothing and bedding, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (cf. 1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus Christ returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they should not carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian/Satanic worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christ specifically meant the Judaea of that time, because the disciples understood that He was speaking directly to them, as did all of the believers in the Olivet audience. Christ's warnings were relayed over the ensuing years to the Jerusalem and Judaean believers, preparing them for the time that they would flee to the mountains prior to the Roman onslaught. History confirms their flight and survival. In this way, God preserved His elect to carry on His commission in the ages to follow.

William Blackstone, a 19th-20th century dispensationalist, unwilling to accept that the believers had fled almost 2,000 years ago, sent workers to Petra with Hebrew Bibles encased in copper boxes to place in some of the caves in that area. He believed the Jews would flee into these mountains during the tribulation and read his Bibles. There is no record that he gave any thought to the temporal physical needs of those who would flee. If today's futurists are at all serious about their professed convictions, they should be caching consumables in vast quantities in the associated areas. If they are, there is no publicity surrounding the efforts. If they are not, their dereliction of duty is inexcusable.

Nor is there any publicity about contemporary Judaean Christians conducting such a program. If they are not, they evidently understand Matthew 24 and history correctly.

Bible2+ · Jun 8, 2018

jgr said in post #74:

In Matthew 24:32-34, the fig tree (and all the trees, Luke 21:29-30) budded, but Israel remained unrepentant.

Regarding Luke 21:29, there the original Greek word (G3956) translated as "all" does not have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). And, indeed, not all trees are deciduous, so Luke 21:30 would not apply to absolutely all trees. Also, in prophecy, various trees can represent nations (Ezekiel 31). So Luke 21:29 can refer figuratively to the nations (including Israel) which gained or regained independence after World War II. Also, "these things" in Luke 21:31 include the never-fulfilled, worldwide events of Luke 21:25-26,35, which must occur right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 21:27, Matthew 24:29-31) and His establishment of the physical aspect of God's Kingdom on the earth during the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

jgr said in post #74:

If today's futurists are at all serious about their professed convictions, they should be caching consumables in vast quantities in the associated areas.

During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the "associated areas" will be the entire world, which will worship the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18).

Bible2+ · Jun 8, 2018

jgr said in post #74:

If today's futurists are at all serious about their professed convictions, they should be caching consumables in vast quantities in the associated areas.

Regarding "caching consumables", that brings to mind Isaiah 26:20.

The pre-tribulation-rapture view says that Isaiah 26:20 refers to pre-tribulation-raptured Christians in heaven after Isaiah 26:19 occurs.

But Isaiah 26:19 refers to the physical resurrection of the Church, which will not happen until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:14-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-57, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

And Isaiah 26:20 starts a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And Isaiah 26:20 also takes a step back chronologically from Isaiah 26:19, like how, for example, Matthew 14:3 takes a step back chronologically from Matthew 14:2. For Isaiah 26:20 is addressing those in the Church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the seven vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These Christians will still be waiting for Jesus Christ's Second Coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they will not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 refers to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). There would be no reason for resurrected, immortal people up in heaven to hide (Isaiah 26:20b) from any events happening down on the earth.

Also, Christians can prepare their Isaiah 26:20 chambers now, and hide in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the seven vials (Revelation 16), but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the Church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for Christians to prepare these chambers would be to bury old shipping containers, which shipping and trucking companies could have stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheaply to anyone who will take them off of their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile six feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, six feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius).

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, six-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a seven-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a seven-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 16-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, bottled water, bedding, warm clothing, batteries, sealed buckets for waste, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and a side-vented (i.e. perforated), thick-PVC cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site should not be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it will not be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden from hostile people during the worldwide reign of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers, so that it appears as much as possible as it did before you began digging. Also, the tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be hidden by brush, so that any hostile people passing by will not notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and will not start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe. Another thing to do would be to set up hidden motion detectors around your site which would alert you in your container if anyone is approaching the area around it. Then you could spray Ozium (a scent eliminator) into your container's ventilation pipes, and block them from inside the container, to prevent your scent from ascending into the pipes while people with dogs are passing through the area.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the future Tribulation's second half), before the Tribulation begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout. For if you get other people involved in knowing, before the Antichrist's reign, where your hideout is located, then during the Antichrist's reign those people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers, and under torture or interrogation drugs (e.g. anesthesia), they could divulge the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's reign, and decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you did not store up enough for them, because before the Tribulation they had said that they definitely were not going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that before the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:4-18), even when communicating with those who are committed to joining you in your hideout during his reign, you must never refer to your hideout's location over the internet, or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone; or audibly even in your own car or home; or audibly in any store, restaurant, workplace, or street equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by government surveillance agencies, and their records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine your hideout's location. (Government surveillance agencies think that they are protecting "national security", but what they have done is set everything up for the future Antichrist's total surveillance and subjugation of everyone.) So you will have to communicate your hideout's location to others, both currently and in the future, only by ear-whispering (with a covering hand), or by handwritten notes (with a covering hand) which are only given directly, and then are burned up immediately after they have been read.

Also, you must not have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, Mopar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely to determine your hideout's location. Also, you can disable any obvious GPS antenna on your car (such as the antennas that look like a little shark fin on the roof, or are a short pole sticking out of the back of the roof) by cutting through the fabric in the ceiling of your car and simply cutting the electric wires leading to the antenna. Also, you will need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically-swept for any GPS trackers which have been covertly placed in them by government surveillance agencies.

Currently, as during the future Tribulation, if you are sure that your car does not have a GPS tracker, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a wash cloth, or put it in a cigar box, and wrap the towel or box with aluminum foil so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a second layer of foil and call again. If the phone does not ring, this means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements cannot be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way. For otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from your hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there simply because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the future Tribulation. But this may not be the case. For almost all people in the cities do not have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and will not know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness. And so they will not think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains. And so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter, and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them, and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the future Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they do not want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Christians trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded. For if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, then they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Christians should not assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on Christians trapped in the cities during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many Christians could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being beheaded if they do not do these things. It will be much, much better for Christians to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

jgr · Jun 8, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Regarding Luke 21:29, there the original Greek word (G3956) translated as "all" does not have to mean absolutely all, but can mean "all manner of" (Acts 10:12). And, indeed, not all trees are deciduous, so Luke 21:30 would not apply to absolutely all trees. Also, in prophecy, various trees can represent nations (Ezekiel 31). So Luke 21:29 can refer figuratively to the nations (including Israel) which gained or regained independence after World War II. Also, "these things" in Luke 21:31 include the never-fulfilled, worldwide events of Luke 21:25-26,35, which must occur right before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 21:27, Matthew 24:29-31) and His establishment of the physical aspect of God's Kingdom on the earth during the subsequent Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

There's nothing representative or figurative in these verses. Jesus is using a literal illustration from the literal natural world to explain literal signs that would herald further literal signs, culminating in the final literal event of the judgment and destruction of the nation.

If "all" can mean "all manner of", then it does not have to mean "all manner of", but can also mean "all". But whether "all the trees" means "all the trees", or "all manner of trees", is irrelevant, for it has nothing to do with the literal meaning of the illustration.

Jesus' was stating what His audience already knew: That the literal budding of the fig tree (and all the trees) was a literal sign that summer was literally nigh.

He then drew a parallel to what He had just described about the literal signs heralding the culminating literal event: When these signs began to appear, they would confirm to those witnessing them that the aforedescribed culminating literal event, the judgment and destruction of the nation, was now literally nigh.

The signs and event would, and did, literally occur, and were fulfilled precisely and entirely, as Jesus had prophesied, within a generation, the 70 AD time period.

Bible2+ said:
During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the "associated areas" will be the entire world, which will worship the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Matthew 24 is describing a future global event, then Jesus should have been admonishing believers in the entire world to be prepared to flee.

But He mentioned only those in Judaea.

He wasn't describing a future global event.

He was describing an imminent local event, His descriptions about which were fulfilled precisely and entirely within a generation, the 70 AD time period.

Revelation hadn't been written yet, and when it was, it contained and contains no mention of antichrist, even though John himself coined the term in his epistles.

jgr · Jun 8, 2018

Bible2+ said:
One way for Christians to prepare these chambers would be to bury old shipping containers, which shipping and trucking companies could have stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheaply to anyone who will take them off of their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile six feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, six feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius).

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, six-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a seven-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a seven-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 16-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, bottled water, bedding, warm clothing, batteries, sealed buckets for waste, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and a side-vented (i.e. perforated), thick-PVC cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site should not be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it will not be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden from hostile people during the worldwide reign of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers, so that it appears as much as possible as it did before you began digging. Also, the tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be hidden by brush, so that any hostile people passing by will not notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and will not start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe. Another thing to do would be to set up hidden motion detectors around your site which would alert you in your container if anyone is approaching the area around it. Then you could spray Ozium (a scent eliminator) into your container's ventilation pipes, and block them from inside the container, to prevent your scent from ascending into the pipes while people with dogs are passing through the area.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the future Tribulation's second half), before the Tribulation begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout. For if you get other people involved in knowing, before the Antichrist's reign, where your hideout is located, then during the Antichrist's reign those people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers, and under torture or interrogation drugs (e.g. anesthesia), they could divulge the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's reign, and decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you did not store up enough for them, because before the Tribulation they had said that they definitely were not going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that before the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:4-18), even when communicating with those who are committed to joining you in your hideout during his reign, you must never refer to your hideout's location over the internet, or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone; or audibly even in your own car or home; or audibly in any store, restaurant, workplace, or street equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could be currently tapped and recorded by government surveillance agencies, and their records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine your hideout's location. (Government surveillance agencies think that they are protecting "national security", but what they have done is set everything up for the future Antichrist's total surveillance and subjugation of everyone.) So you will have to communicate your hideout's location to others, both currently and in the future, only by ear-whispering (with a covering hand), or by handwritten notes (with a covering hand) which are only given directly, and then are burned up immediately after they have been read.

Also, you must not have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, Mopar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely to determine your hideout's location. Also, you can disable any obvious GPS antenna on your car (such as the antennas that look like a little shark fin on the roof, or are a short pole sticking out of the back of the roof) by cutting through the fabric in the ceiling of your car and simply cutting the electric wires leading to the antenna. Also, you will need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically-swept for any GPS trackers which have been covertly placed in them by government surveillance agencies.

Currently, as during the future Tribulation, if you are sure that your car does not have a GPS tracker, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a wash cloth, or put it in a cigar box, and wrap the towel or box with aluminum foil so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a second layer of foil and call again. If the phone does not ring, this means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements cannot be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way. For otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from your hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there simply because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the future Tribulation. But this may not be the case. For almost all people in the cities do not have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and will not know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness. And so they will not think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains. And so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter, and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them, and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the future Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they do not want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Christians trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded. For if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, then they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Christians should not assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on Christians trapped in the cities during the future Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many Christians could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being beheaded if they do not do these things. It will be much, much better for Christians to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

What of Christians in 3rd world countries who have never heard of shipping containers, bulldozers, GPS, etc.; let alone being able to afford them? Where would Christians by the multitude around the world find the real estate necessary to implement such plans? Since governments by default own all land not privately owned, what govenments would permit such implementations?

This is delusion at its best (or worst), as any such attempts would meet with failure in innumerable ways, with one predictable outcome.

You'd be deservedly dead.

It's also the epitome of cowardice. True believers down through every age in history right up to this moment have sacrificed, and are called to sacrifice, their lives for their fellow human beings (John 15:13, Revelation 12:11), not squander their resources on futile attempts at self-preservation. A futurist cowering in a shipping container is a contemptible antithesis of what the gospel calls us to, and is fully deserving of whatever fate he will inevitably meet.

I wouldn't even wish him luck.

Bible2+ · Jun 9, 2018

jgr said in post #77:

If Matthew 24 is describing a future global event, then Jesus should have been admonishing believers in the entire world to be prepared to flee.

He showed that later (cf. John 16:12).

For the woman in Revelation 12 represents the global Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and will be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the Church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

*******

jgr said in post #78:

A futurist cowering in a shipping container is a contemptible antithesis of what the gospel calls us to . . .

There need be no "cowering" in the fulfillment of the command of Isaiah 26:20.

Similarly, Matthew 10:23 commands Christians to flee persecution whenever it occurs. And Matthew 24:15-16 commands Christians to flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16).

-

It is sometimes asked: "But does not fleeing show that we think that God is not strong enough to defeat the enemy?"

The answer is No, Revelation 12:14 and Matthew 24:16 do not mean that the ones fleeing think that God is not strong enough to defeat the enemy (when He decides to), just as Matthew 10:23a does not mean that. But we should still obey Matthew 24:16 and Revelation 12:6,14 when we see the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16), just as we should obey Matthew 10:23a during any current persecution which we might face. We should never become so spiritually proud that we think that we can stand up to a persecution when God is telling us to flee from it, because, for example, He knows that it will involve our being tortured in a way which will be too much for us to bear without us committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of our salvation from hell (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12), or because He knows that we will be killed, and He wants us to be among those who will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

jgr · Jun 9, 2018

Bible2+ said:
He showed that later (cf. John 16:12).

Nothing Christ showed later contradicted, or would have contradicted, Matthew 24:16.

Bible2+ said:
There need be no "cowering" in the fulfillment of the command of Isaiah 26:20.

Isaiah 26:20 does not refer to antichrist or persecution or tribulation. Rather, it is an invitation to God's faithful saints to withdraw until His punishment of the iniquitous (verse 21), precipitated by His indignation, is complete.

Isaiah 26:20 is not fulfilled in a shipping container.

Bible2+ said:
Similarly, Matthew 10:23 commands Christians to flee persecution whenever it occurs. And Matthew 24:15-16 commands Christians to flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15-16).

Some futurists are evidently overwhelmed by “tribulation trepidation”.

This, despite the admonitions to New Testament believers to expect, face, and in fact embrace tribulation (John 16:33, Acts 14:22, Romans 5:3, Romans 12:12, Romans 12:12, 2 Corinthians 7:4, 1 Thessalonians 3:4, 2 Thessalonians 1:4, Revelation 1:9, Revelation 2:9, Revelation 2:10, Revelation 7:14).

The same is true of persecution, which is but one form of tribulation (Matthew 5:10-12, Matthew 5:44, Luke 21:12, John 15:20, Romans 8:35, Romans 12:14, 1 Corinthians 4:12, 2 Corinthians 4:9, 2 Corinthians 12:10, 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Timothy 3:12)

But some futurists are too preoccupied with stocking their shipping containers.

Matthew 10 relates specifically to the initial missionary assignment Jesus gave His disciples, and its scope (verse 23, “...the cities of Israel...). Jesus did not expect them to endure persecution on this assignment.

Jesus' warning in Matthew 24:15-16 to the Judaean Christians to flee to the mountains prior to the Roman invasion was heeded, and all survived.

Bible2+ said:
It is sometimes asked: "But does not fleeing show that we think that God is not strong enough to defeat the enemy?"

To place our faith in Christ means to abandon our faith in our shipping containers.

Sadly, those overcome by tribulation trepidation may never be capable of doing so.

The name of the beast is 666: euporia (prosperity)

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