Sanctification

ralliann said:

Yes, I see that. When I attended shul, as someone with Catholic Influence, I recognized it then by myself. Most from a protestant background do not. They don't even realize, but having that background yep! The prayers about God sanctifying us by his commandments were pretty glaring to me. I thought to myself ...… Jewish Catholicism. this after not having gone to mass since the third grade, I was in my forties...…
I like that Mark knizer is addressing the subject...

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I would say more on the subject, but I suspect it would be mistaken for tootin' the horn of my church, which would be a violation of the SOP. If you like, you can copy my quote quote over, and we can discuss this on OBOB or General Theology.

Open Heart said:

I would say more on the subject, but I suspect it would be mistaken for tootin' the horn of my church, which would be a violation of the SOP. If you like, you can copy my quote quote over, and we can discuss this on OBOB or General Theology.

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LOL, I am not tech savvy. If you do it ill go. Warnin ya though, we may not agree on certain things....

chunkofcoal said:

Splitting this from "Messianics Who Preach Circumcision"
What do you all think about sanctification?

Chunkofcoal said:
I don't think (most?) MJ's are trying to be sanctified by the Law and I believe they understand that sanctification is by faith in Jesus, but they keep the Law, in the way they understand it, and how they are able, because of love and obedience to God.

Tampasteve said:
^^^This
The Law does not sanctify or lead to Salvation, that is the work of Yeshua/Jesus. I do not think you will find many (though there are some, but not on these forums) MJ that would think otherwise.

Open Heart said:
tampasteve: what is your idea of sanctification? Because mine is growing closer to God and developing a Christ-mind, and I very definitely use following the Torah as a means towards sanctification. It's a great discipline, no different than, say, becoming a monk and praying round the clock or devoting one's life to the care of the homeless.

Tampasteve said:
Agree, I should have stopped at "salvation' as I believe the whole purpose of the Law, is to help us draw near to God, to sanctify us for his presence. Thanks for checking

What is your opinion in regards to sanctification? What does sanctification mean to you?
Is sanctification by faith in Yeshua? Is sanctification through keeping the Law? Both?

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Both.

Open Heart said:

Cassia:
You should see my thread, "The Law is not abrogated." I basically state that as a Messianic Jew I believe that NOTHING in the Torah is yet passed away, not even the minutest of brush stokes, as Jesus said, and will not pass away until the Messiah judges the world. Even Hebrews said that it is passing away, but never says that it has passed away past tense. Hebrews only says that these laws have nothing to do with the New Covenant. It never says that they are irrelevant to the Old Covenant, which as Paul says, 'the gifts and promises of God are irrevocable," and Genesis 17 says is "everlasting."

That includes the Aaronic priesthood, which exists concurrent to the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Teaching the abrogation of the Torah is against the forum's SOP.

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A few questions: Do you believe the whole of Jeremiah's prophecy, as quoted in Hebrews 8, is the present day picture of things?

Do you believe that Jeremiah's prophecy (31:31ff) is tied to Ezekiel's prophecy in Chs. 36 to 38 as a precursor to the Temple being built in Ch. 40ff.

Are the Covenant and Law completely interdependent?

Will another Temple be built?

AbbaLove said:

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So what is your point? Are you saying that our MJ resident theologian's theology is askew? If you haven't agreed to this MJ forum's SOP you're not allowed to teach what may be influenced by your Calvinist theology, but you can ask questions.

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I don't really know what your driving at, what I posted was an exposition of various texts that relate to circumcision and sanctification. It was never intended to be confrontational and the theological implications I would have handled differently had that been my concern. For instance justification begins the sanctification process. I was discussing circumcision in the larger context of sanctification, nothing more.

Your teaching is not consistent with Messianic Judaism. According to your theology "justification by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law" is interpreted by Messianic Judaism that your attempting to teach MJs that they no longer have to: "Remember The [7th Day] Sabbath To Keep It Holy" which is Law. You didn't say, "apart from works of man's legalism" but rather apart from works of God's Law ... implying the Ten Commandments are "worn out" as you mistakenly believe. You are not allowed to teach that Messianic Believers no longer have to honor the Fourth Commandment.

Again, you are not allowed to teach/imply that the Covenant that God made with Israel has been "set aside". This is a Messianic Judaism forum and as such you should respect our SOP.


Your post is not asking questions, but rather comes across as an attempt to instruct MJs that the Law (Covenant) has been abolished and that justification is by trust apart from the Law. For example you should ask our resident MJ theologian Heber Book List the following question: When do you believe Yeshua will fulfill the Law? ... as opposed to teaching your theology on Matthew 5:17.

There may be a MJ that would like to have a debate with you with respect to Matthew 5:17-18 at: Formal Debate Proposals ... You might express your interest on this thread and post a brief to see if there is an MJ that may have some interest. Perhaps, tampasteve will make an exception an allow an informal debate between you and member(s) on this MJ forum that agree to abide by the guidelines at: Formal Debate Proposals Guidelines

When you say "they" are you distinguishing yourself from Messianic Judaism ?

IMO, even if Mr. Kennedy had said "apart from works of man's legalism" instead of "apart from the works of the (God's) Law" he is pushing up against this forum's SOP. Many MJs believe in following halacha as honoring unto Adonai. So MJs practice the Law in a manner that is consistent with this forum's SOP ...

• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

Read your recent interaction at: You must read and agree before posting in this forum and agree with Lulav.

Heber Book List said:

A few questions: Do you believe the whole of Jeremiah's prophecy, as quoted in Hebrews 8, is the present day picture of things

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No and no. The new covenant talked about these places has not yet come to pass. Certain things just aren’t true yet. For example people don’t automatically believe in God but still have to be taught.

Are the Covenant and Law completely interdependent?

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the Law is part of the Mosaic Covenant. It is not part of the New Covenant.

Will another Temple be built?

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yes. Probably long before the last days

mark kennedy said:

Circumcision was a sign of the Old Covenant, Abraham circumcised his whole houshold. Moses on the way to Eqypt was nearly slain by the Lord for failing to circumcise his son. His wife quickly circimcised him, throwing the foreskin as Moses feet calling him a 'bloody' husband.

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Circumcision was a sign of the Abrahamic covenant promises....

AbbaLove said:

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Your teaching is not consistent with Messianic Judaism. According to your theology "justification by grace through faith apart from the works of the Law" is interpreted by Messianic Judaism that your attempting to teach MJs that they no longer have to: "Remember The [7th Day] Sabbath To Keep It Holy" which is Law. You didn't say, "apart from works of man's legalism" but rather apart from works of God's Law ... implying the Ten Commandments are "worn out" as you mistakenly believe. You are not allowed to teach that Messianic Believers no longer have to honor the Fourth Commandment.

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I've neither said nor suggested any such thing and as far as circumcision try Acts 15. As a matter of fact I said nothing contrary to the ten commandments except to echo Paul's discussion of the tenth commandment reveling the coveteous tendencies of the human heart. I certainly suggested MJs should abandon their Jewish practices since I'm only dimly aware of how they do. I was responding to what I thought was an interesting discussion on sanctification.

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Again, you are not allowed to teach/imply that the Covenant that God made with Israel has been "set aside". This is a Messianic Judaism forum and as such you should respect our SOP.

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Tell you what the forum is all yours, I dont appreciate being misrepresented without any regard to the substance of what I actually posted.

MJ members can also bring it up that one's theology (Calvinism) is not consistent with this forum's SOP. He comes across as a know-it-all talking down to you as if MJs are in the dark when he replies to you (#2) ...


Calvinist theology is not consistent with this MJ forum's SOP. His attitude suggests he thinks MJs should abandon their Jewish practices even though he is dimly aware when he says ...


We'll have to see if he has more disparaging words for me or if as a guest he will ask a few questions to broaden his knowledge of Messianic Judaism of which he is dimly aware.

I was asking you with the understanding that Steve's reply is valid.

So, what do you believe enabled these Jewish men to become sanctified by God? The impression is that there may not be even one non-Jew from the nations that is sanctified? What's going on here ? ...