If we are in the End Times...

DamianWarS

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I'm wondering though on the "avoid such people" aspect more...
To be serious I think the context here are believers who are also "lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive... etc..." if it included non believers than who is our mission?

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 5:9‭-‬11:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

it seems this isn't the first time Paul assumed a context of believers as indicated by Paul's trying to clear things up more to the Corinthians. Since the letters to Timothy are "for Timothy" perhaps he was a little more tuned in to Paul's style and mature enough to know what he's talking about. One thing Corinthians shows us is that they were not mature.
 
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KayScarpettaFan

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Do you think we are in the End Times?

If yes, what do you make of the following:

"...in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Yes I think we are in the end times. And I think this is a description of Narcissists and other cluster B disturbed people who are increasing their numbers in an impressive way. Narcissistic abuse is rampant. And the description in 2nd Timothy is impressive. Stunningly accurate.
 
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Davy

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Do you think we are in the End Times?

If yes, what do you make of the following:

"...in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

I can attest that it has happened and is getting even more so as time goes on.

My father was a WWII U.S. combat marine. He said they weren't allowed to curse like was done in the Clint Eastwood movie Heartbreak Ridge. They certainly did when I was in the military during the Vietnam war. Something obviously changed based on what was socially acceptable then vs. now.

In the U.S. before the 1950's influence of Communism and 1960's influence of drugs and eastern religion, Christian principles were in the main in America.

But all that is only part of the sign that we are in the end time. The signs Jesus gave in the Seals of Revelation 6 are what to really be watching. He covered those Seals in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
 
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gideon123

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Consider the bold text ...

I dont think that you can ignore the 8 billion people living in the world today. A great many of them are acting just as you described.

However ...

You can drop Facebook.
You can disconnect Twitter.
You can read the Bible every day, and listen to Christian radio.
You always have options to increase the presence of the Lord in your life!

Blessings!!
 
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Biblewriter

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I find it somewhat remarkable that, in this entire discussion so far, no one has even brought up the real evidence that we are near the end.

First, we need to notice the scripture that says we are to be "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:25

So the Bible clearly indicates that we should be able to see the day approaching. And those of us that have really studied Bible prophecy, all know that it is.

So far the discussion has centered around general statements, such as the growing evil in the world, or wars and rumors of wars. And these are indeed indications, but only of a general, and thus minor, sort.

But there are a large number of specific details in the prophecies about the end times. Almost all of these details have not been true for around nineteen hundred years. And they were not even true when I was born. But all of them are true today.

The first of these is that the Jews are back in their homeland. The Bible prophecies are full of details about what will happen to them in their homeland during that future period. As they were expelled from there about nineteen hundred years ago, only a very few of them have been there until the early 20th century, when they began to return, actually forming into a nation 70 years ago this year. So this return of the Jews to their ancient homeland is a very clear and definite that the end is approaching.

The second of these is that the prophecies are very clear that in the last days, the Jews will be surrounded by mortal enemies, who desire to completely destroy them. This began to be true as soon as they began to return in large numbers, even before they became a nation. This, again, is a sign that the end is approaching.

A third sign is that the prophecies make it very clear that the Roman Empire will be re-established. We see a movement toward this goal in the European Economic Community. There have been earlier attempts to bring this about, but all of these have been by military force. And the scriptures indicate that this union will come about as a voluntary union of ten nations. The EEC is now composed of ore than that number, so it is not that revival of the Roman Empire. But the fact that these nations are attempting to work together is another sign that the end is near.

Another sign is the rise of Russia as a world leader interested in the middle east. The prophetic scriptures tell about Russia invading Israel during the end times.

Another is The interest of China in the middle east. The prophetic scriptures do not name China, but they describe an army of three hundred million men (which only China could raise) coming from the east.

And yet another is the attempts of the United States to broker peace in the middle east. The prophetic scriptures indicate a nation from beyond the borders of the ancient world, sending ambassadors "over the sea" in the end times. (but they also say that this will fail.)

These are but a few of the very specific details of the modern world order which very plainly match up with the end time prophecies in the Bible. These, along with the more general signs, clearly show that the time is growing near. But how near, we can only guess.
 
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GirdYourLoins

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These are but a few of the very specific details of the modern world order which very plainly match up with the end time prophecies in the Bible. These, along with the more general signs, clearly show that the time is growing near. But how near, we can only guess.

Im hoping we are at Matthew 24:14. With the ascent of the internet it is now possible for the gospel to be preached in the whole world. In verse 15 it speaks of the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy place which many believe has happened and still is. Then verse 16 about those in Judae fleeing. I dont think we have seen hat yet. Judea includes the land from Palestinian State to Jerusalem. Hamas have publicly declared they want to wipe Israel out and kill every last Jew. I think there will be an attack against Jerusalem starting from Palestine. Many people have said they believe that Matthew 24:16-22 relates to the whole world but I think it is literally true about the area it states in the text, it is about Judea.

So Im just waiting for the attack on Israel with eagerness, even though that is contrary to what I want to happen.
 
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Valetic

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Do you think we are in the End Times?

If yes, what do you make of the following:

"...in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)
There have always been people like this, but the bible says elsewhere that in the last days it will be as in the days of Noah and that only evil will be on their minds all the time.
 
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keras

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We who trust in the Lord and are Bible believers can and should know what He has planned for our future. Paul says: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 You; friends are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. Revelation 1:1 The Lord has revealed His plans to His servants.

We believe that God’s Word is inerrant and complete as presented to us in the Holy Scriptures, therefore it is not right to ignore parts of it, or to say: that must have already happened, and: that does not apply to us, excepting for the obvious.

To hold onto beliefs that do not have solid Bible support, like looking to the Return of Jesus as the next event, or a ‘rapture’ out of this world, is a serious error and may result in some disadvantage for you. The attitude of “I trust in the Lord for protection” is correct, but barely adequate when He has given us so much warning and information.

The actual end times events will surprise and shock those who didn’t bother to gain understanding, even though what must happen will dramatically affect everyone.
The unfortunate part about not knowing our future, is that we miss out on the anticipation of the wonderful and amazing promises that the Lord has made to His people, those who keep His Laws and honour and praise their Creator.

Now, there is a great proliferation of end times misinformation, books, movies, internet, etc. Hopefully people can see through the commercialization and profit making opportunities of these times. But, the biggest problems for church goers is the lack of preaching about prophecy and the adherence to inadequate Bible translations. How can we properly understand something written 400 years ago? So many Bibles have, at best a translators bias and at worst actual changes to suit certain doctrines.


People quote Matthew 24:36 ...no one knows the day or hour... omitting the full quote, that is; verse 35-36 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away. Yet about THAT Day and hour no one knows... Then Jesus goes on to talk about His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple. The verse that explain Matthew 24:35-36 belong at the time of the end of the Millennium, as Revelation 20:11 says: heaven and earth will flee... at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Why has God given us so many end time prophecies if we can only know afterwards?
To say that it is impossible to know the timing of soon to happen prophesied events, results in a contradiction of Scripture, as several prophets say that we can know God’s plans. Psalms 25:14, Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 48:16, Amos 3:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 1:1

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come on everyone, the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus.
This Bible passage is not about the Day of the Return, but the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a worldwide judgement by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, the next prophesied event.

We are actually given time periods, figures that many people have grappled with and always come up with incorrect results, because up until now, God has not wanted mankind to know. Now, as we near the ‘two days’ / 2000 years of the church age, we Christians should be at least aware of forthcoming events.
 
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Sound Doctrine

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Do you think we are in the End Times?

If yes, what do you make of the following:

"...in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Here is from the old KJV, which I trust the most: 2 Timothy 3:1-9 - "1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."

I added a few verses because I feel they are applicable to today as well. Verses 6-7 for example are a clear description of women's lib, i.e., the feminist movement, which in contemporary times was started in earnest from a manifesto called the Humanist Manifesto by Betty Friedan. It has a couple revisions now. It is antichrist material for sure. A Godless society is dictated. While all the things Paul listed have gone on since Paul's time and before that, I believe it is in Scripture as a matter of degree. That is, those things listed are much more rampant, profound, and global today than before. The churches and individuals are guilty of many of these things to varying degrees. These letters were written because these things were going on back then, though much more so today. In short, these times are probably what Paul is being specific about as a matter of degree, notwithstanding the obvious reference to the fact that they were going on then, as seen in verses 8-9.

To add to the end times or last days, assuming they are the same thing, here is some definitive Scripture which applies to today's churches and people: 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - "3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

This speaks of the future from Paul's vantage point. It definitely has happened. The churches have indeed turned away from the truth. During the 7-year tribulation, there are no churches, but there are going to be saints. What Paul says here is what has happened and is perpetuating itself until the rapture. After that time, the tribulation begins; churches are no more because for at least a brief time there are no saints on earth.

Are the last days and the end times the same thing?
 
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We who trust in the Lord and are Bible believers can and should know what He has planned for our future. Paul says: 1 Thessalonians 5:4 You; friends are not in the dark, that Day will not come upon you like a thief. Revelation 1:1 The Lord has revealed His plans to His servants.

We believe that God’s Word is inerrant and complete as presented to us in the Holy Scriptures, therefore it is not right to ignore parts of it, or to say: that must have already happened, and: that does not apply to us, excepting for the obvious.

To hold onto beliefs that do not have solid Bible support, like looking to the Return of Jesus as the next event, or a ‘rapture’ out of this world, is a serious error and may result in some disadvantage for you. The attitude of “I trust in the Lord for protection” is correct, but barely adequate when He has given us so much warning and information.

The actual end times events will surprise and shock those who didn’t bother to gain understanding, even though what must happen will dramatically affect everyone.
The unfortunate part about not knowing our future, is that we miss out on the anticipation of the wonderful and amazing promises that the Lord has made to His people, those who keep His Laws and honour and praise their Creator.

Now, there is a great proliferation of end times misinformation, books, movies, internet, etc. Hopefully people can see through the commercialization and profit making opportunities of these times. But, the biggest problems for church goers is the lack of preaching about prophecy and the adherence to inadequate Bible translations. How can we properly understand something written 400 years ago? So many Bibles have, at best a translators bias and at worst actual changes to suit certain doctrines.


People quote Matthew 24:36 ...no one knows the day or hour... omitting the full quote, that is; verse 35-36 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will never pass away. Yet about THAT Day and hour no one knows... Then Jesus goes on to talk about His Return – an event we definitely can know, that will be exactly 1260 days after the Anti Christ desecrates the Temple. The verse that explain Matthew 24:35-36 belong at the time of the end of the Millennium, as Revelation 20:11 says: heaven and earth will flee... at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Why has God given us so many end time prophecies if we can only know afterwards?
To say that it is impossible to know the timing of soon to happen prophesied events, results in a contradiction of Scripture, as several prophets say that we can know God’s plans. Psalms 25:14, Isaiah 46:10, Isaiah 48:16, Amos 3:7, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 1:1

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come on everyone, the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus.
This Bible passage is not about the Day of the Return, but the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a worldwide judgement by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, the next prophesied event.

We are actually given time periods, figures that many people have grappled with and always come up with incorrect results, because up until now, God has not wanted mankind to know. Now, as we near the ‘two days’ / 2000 years of the church age, we Christians should be at least aware of forthcoming events.


I agree with much of what you say here, but I know the old KJV is the Bible for English speaking people. It is a direct translation from the original tongues. It is public domain. It has been the most popular Bible by far for over 400 years, and until last century was about the only Bible available (Geneva and DR are much less available). God is not the author of confusion. Satan utterly confuses the human mind. There are over 100 English Bibles, some with multiple editions, such as the NIV, which has at least four. God would not leave the English speaking people with a bum Bible for 400+ years! Further, if we were to try to select the best modern Bible, which would it be? I couldn't even guess, leaving the KJV out of the selection and trying to pick the best Bible. It is very confusing. Satan has attacked God's word with these confusing decisions as to the best Bible(s). They are copyrighted, so they all must be different or the publishers would be suing each other for plagiarism. That means that we have to by law have inconsistencies between the modern interpretations.

The bad raps I have come across regarding the validity of the old KJV are bogus. It is so meticulous, the translators even used what we see in italics to denote words or phrases which have no direct English meaning. This was done so that in reading the Scriptures, we know the direct from the indirect translations. I have sampled a few Scriptures from the modern versions and found them to be watered down and inaccurate. God's word is the power of God. At the end of Revelation, we are warned not to add to or to take away from these books, but that is what the modern versions do. The old KJV Bible was and is used by God to bring more people by far to Christ and teach them of Himself than others of its day. It has always been God's word in English, as a gift of God. It is certainly understandable today. A Strong's Concordance of the KJV is a big help in defining words of archaic and even not archaic usage, and is a vital tool to any Bible student.

Satan's works are abounding more now than they have since the time of the Great Flood when you look at what he is doing globally today. God is in His purpose, allowing this to happen as the end draws very close.

As for the eschatology, the Scriptures, as I perceive them to say, are teaching that there are two raptures. The first is just before the 7-year tribulation: 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. At the end of the tribulation, at Christ's second coming, He will gather up all the elect from the four winds of the earth. In both cases the catching or gathering up will be only of the saints. I believe in a pretribulation rapture because Jesus says in verse 22, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." This, along with Scripture that says we are not appointed unto wrath but unto salvation, causes me to believe that there is a rapture before the tribulation. How could "those days" which are most grievous, be shortened if there were only one rapture, and that being when the Lord is here anyway? What days are left to be shortened for the elect's sake?

The purposes of the tribulation are for God to have His wrath and vengeance on the wicked, and for the Abrahamic Covenant to be completed with Israel. God has repeatedly kept His people from His wrath when it is upon the wicked. I don't believe He would put us through the worst epic in all of time in creation, which is yet to come. We are His children. The wicked are the children of Satan. He will have His wrath upon them. The saints of the tribulation who emerge during that time will mostly be put to death and spared much of the wrath. The wrath is not the same as the persecution from man. It is much more severe. After the battle of Armageddon there is a 1000-year reign of Christ with the saints as His priests here on earth. During that time, Satan and his demons will be bound, put into the bottomless pit, and sealed. After this, they are released and stir up a rebellion against Christ and His saints and angels for a short time. Then they and the children of the devil along with death and hell, are cast into the lake of fire for eternity. After this God creates a new heaven and earth, and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the new earth. I learned this eschatology from the Scriptures. Anything I heard man say about it I scrutinized using the Scriptures. I did not leave this to chance that any teacher might be right or wrong.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Do you think we are in the End Times?

Yes, we are living in the time of the end. However...

If yes, what do you make of the following:

"...in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people." (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

Timothy didn't stand in the latter days and declare that in the last days, perilous times were coming, if it was simply the same old thing that he saw in his own day.

2nd Timothy 3:1-7
  • "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
  • For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
  • Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
  • Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
  • Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
  • For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
  • Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Timothy doesn't warn of this apostasy in the last days so we could set dates, but so that we would not be caught unaware by these things coming upon the earth. It's not the same old things, it's something completely different when Satan has loosed that iniquity abounds or increases tremendously as the church is tried. What do we think is the purpose of God telling the church that both Satan will be loosed, and that he will so forth to gather the nations from all over the four corners of the earth, specifically to assault the camp of saints just prior to His second coming? Does that in any way at all, sounds like the same old unfaithfulness or just church business as usual? Indeed, how could it be when Satan is loosed, unrestrained that he can gather the nations in order to do this? If he was restrained in the time of the apostle Paul, and the early church, and throughout the Reformation when you say all this unfaithfulness happened before, what will be the evil when he is unrestrained or loosed?

Matthew 24:21
  • "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
No need for us to guess. When Satan is loosed, it will not be the same old tribulation and falling away. It will be greater than has ever been before, nor will ever be. Because afterward, Christ returns for the remnant of His people that are left on earth.
 
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Steve Petersen

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The entire premise of the OP is that according to virtually ALL prophecy predictors, things will get WORSE AND WORSE before the coming of Jesus. Unfortunately, things are getting better for nearly everyone on earth since at least the Enlightenment. (Now that's what you call ironic.)
 
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DamianWarS

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Im hoping we are at Matthew 24:14. With the ascent of the internet it is now possible for the gospel to be preached in the whole world.
I think you mean "the whole connected world" the whole world is not connected nor is the internet open in all countires.
 
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DamianWarS

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The entire premise of the OP is that according to virtually ALL prophecy predictors, things will get WORSE AND WORSE before the coming of Jesus. Unfortunately, things are getting better for nearly everyone on earth since at least the Enlightenment. (Now that's what you call ironic.)
Does this include our spiritual state?
 
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bjdea1

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The entire premise of the OP is that according to virtually ALL prophecy predictors, things will get WORSE AND WORSE before the coming of Jesus. Unfortunately, things are getting better for nearly everyone on earth since at least the Enlightenment. (Now that's what you call ironic.)

The world is getting better for the wicked. If you are one of the wicked then you would of course believe the world is getting better because its moving towards wickedness. Those who love wickedness will love the world of the Last Days. The Bible says those who take the Mark of the Beast will do so willingly because they want to worship the Anti-Christ. Most people on this planet will literally love the Anti-Christ and will willingly worship him and take his Mark. So according to the majority they will consider the world to be getting better.

For the righteous these are perilous times and getting worse, because the more the world moves away from biblical principles and moves toward evil, the more friction that manifests in daily life. So of course true Christians will hate watching the direction the world is going, and it will lead to some very serious persecution.

One example I can think of right now is the issue of "Gay marriage". Most genuine Christians will disagree with "Gay Marriage" and not like seeing this change. I'm not going to debate this issue right now, but this is one example. Most believers will not feel happy about this direction the world is going, there are many other current issues like this one that I could mention, but for lack of time I won't. But you get the general point I'm sure. The world is moving to a place most Christians do not agree with morally, so this of course makes Christians naturally see the world as getting worse, more wicked.

If you love these kind of changes in the world, if you agree with "Gay Marriage" and the direction the world is going then you would of course consider the world to be getting better.

I see the world as getting so wicked that it is self deceived, deluded and ripe for Gods Wrath. But that's just my opinion. In fact the Bible describes this delusion quite clearly, the world will believe its entering a period of Peace and Security, but its a serious delusion:

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

and

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 
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DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
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How do we measure that?
Historical data on affiliation like this should give us a grasp, but arguably a country like China may be on the increase. Is it good enough that scripture tells us it's going to get worse? Standard of living is also a relative scale, and since knowledge only increases the standard should increase with it, trickling down to lower economic areas and become more accessible. For example 30 years ago a cell phone was a luxury item and although everyone may not have an iPhone X in their pocket even the poorest in the world tend to have a piece of tech that far surpasses the luxury of yesterday.

I know someone in a developing country who has 2 kids, is a widow and makes about $20 a week. Yet her kids go to school, they eat healthy and have access to health care, she owns her own house and motorcycle plus has a smart phone. life is better for her than it would have been 30 years ago. She also lives in a dominantly Muslim nation and her husband was put in jail for essentially converting to Christianity and spreading the gospel; he died in jail from health care neglect. Which one better represents the condition of the world that has been foretold to us? Which one really matters?
 
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