Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

112358 said:

Right. That's why everyone who was becoming a Christian in Acts was running into the waters of baptism in droves. Including the apostle Paul. Makes perfect sense.

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What Mark 16:16 doesn't teach.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Here is an excerpt from that page.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).

112358 said:

There is no loophole. The theif on the cross died under the Mosaic Law, not the New Covenant. Water baptism for the remission of sins was not part of Judaism.

I’m sorry I offended you. I mean that. But the Word itself is the authority, not me. I’m just saying what it says, nothing more nothing less.

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There are all kinds of problems with what you're saying, but you're not listening to anybody, that's my point. You didn't offend me - I'm just zealous of the truth, of which you are not speaking or preaching.

Doug Melven said:

What Mark 16:16 doesn't teach.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Here is an excerpt from that page.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).

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Although, Acts of the Apostles 2:38 might be considered to be a conditional promise, the conditions being repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and the promise being the gift of the Holy Ghost. And it is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts of the Apostles 2:39). Now certainly, someone can receive the Holy Ghost apart from baptism in Jesus' name (Luke 11:13); but if you have any doubt, baptism in Jesus' name can act as a point of contact for faith (like the handkerchiefs and aprons that Paul wore were points of contact for people to be healed (Acts of the Apostles 19:12 (kjv))); through faith in the operation of God (Colossians 2:12), wherein, if baptism is understood to be an identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, it is not the water that we put our trust in, but it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and our identification with Him in it that is the object of our faith.

112358 said:

Then you have removed the free moral agency of that person to make their own choices. The Spirit does not assume control of us when we receive His gift. People who have obeyed the Gospel renounce their faith all the time. Why will we all be judged in the end by the things we have done in the body, whether good or evil, if we are no longer able to do evil things? Because the blood of Christ covers them? Because the Spirit somehow prevents us from committing sin after we are saved? Heart faith that is unto repentance is just that, faith that repents as it happens to sin. Willful unrepentant sin is sin unforgiven. Forgiveness revoked, as Bob Ryan put it.

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Freedom of choice and free moral agency is not violated in a person who has surrendered their lives to the Lord. To be truly born again, we surrender our hearts to the Lord by an act of our will; we ask Him to bind us as living sacrifices to the horns of the altar (Romans 12:1, Psalms 118:27), and He will do this. If we do not trust ourselves not to crawl off of the altar as a living sacrifice, we can ask God to take away our choice in the matter, and this would be a choice that we make, to be bound in that choice through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Even when we become bound to the horns of the altar, our free will is not taken away, because God transforms the heart, so that our desire is to do what is right and it becomes our choice to always do what is right; because we surrendered our will at the Cross and asked Him to secure us by changing our hearts so that forevermore, it becomes our choice to do God's will because our very nature is changed so that we will never desire to go back to the old ways.

If God transformed our hearts without our surrender, it would be a violation of our free will. But because we offer our hearts to Him and ask Him to change us so that our desire is toward Him and toward doing His pleasure, our free will is not violated because everything is done with our permission. Do you see that?

Now of course, hypothetically, anyone can make any kind of choice, and it might even be possible for someone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit to spurn His influence in their lives and make a choice to reject Christ completely. Such a person would never be able to ever come to repentance. Hebrews 6:4-8. But for those who desire to remain saved and who understand that living righteously is involved in this, Christ has entered into that within the veil and is a firm anchor for our soul. Hebrews 6:19.

Bible2+ said:

Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).



Faith plus works for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24).

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You will be judged by Paul’s Gospe(1cor15:1-4) Jesus told us to follow Paul as he follows Christ.Pauls missives where to the gentiles, James letter was sent to the twelve tribes of Israel—- that ain’t us.
Let’s Thank James for his great contributions to scripture, but when it comes to our salvation we must follow Jesus and His latest marching orders.Jesus said to follow Paul not James , He said I will judge you by what you did with Paul’s Gospel,not the gospel of James. The book of James is great for practical Christian Living.Jesus said to go with Paul for a guarantee of salvation found in Paul’s Gospel of Grace, given to him and to him only—- for us.The Holy Spirit that lead us to believe Paul’s Gospel will do a work inside us that will cause us to do good works naturally,unlike the dead works we performed in our unregenerate state.These good works did not save us nor will they keep us saved.Believing that would make one a modern- day Judaizer or legalists—- you would join the “accursed”Faith plus nothing.Be VERY careful with what you do with Paul’s Gospel, you are going to be asked about it.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2351:

Those given eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28).

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With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2356:

The miracle and healing gifts were only to prove authority of the apostles.

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The Holy Spirit's gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10), which operate in Christians who have received Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 19:6, Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46), will not cease operating until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. For 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 means that just as only when children become adults do they put away childish things, so only when Christians become perfect, when they see Jesus face to face at His Second Coming (1 John 3:2), will they no longer need Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and the word of knowledge (1 Corinthians 12:8,10). During the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which will just precede Jesus' Second Coming (Matthew 24:29-31), are some in the Church going to reject the ministry of the Two Witnesses, because it will involve them prophesying, and performing miracles (Revelation 11:3,6)?

Because Jesus Christ's Second Coming, like the preceding Tribulation, has not happened yet, all of the Holy Spirit's gifts are still operating in the Church today, in Pentecostal congregations, and in charismatic congregations, which can be of almost any denomination. God's Word commands Christians to operate in the Spiritual gifts when Christians come together (1 Corinthians 14:26-31). So congregations today should be careful not to quench the Holy Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), by despising prophesyings (1 Thessalonians 5:20), or forbidding all speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). Tongues are one of the Spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-10) through which Christians can be regularly edified (1 Corinthians 14:4-5,12,26). Not all Holy Spirit-baptized Christians will speak in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30), but almost all will (cf. Acts 19:6, Acts 10:45-46). For tongues are one of the Holy Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28; 1 Corinthians 14:5).

Different Christians receive different kinds of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:10). Some tongues are languages which people can understand (Acts 2:4,8), while other tongues are languages which people cannot understand (1 Corinthians 14:2), not even the speakers (1 Corinthians 14:14). Unintelligible tongues could include ancient human languages which are unknown to history, ancient human languages which are known to history but are not understood, and angelic languages (1 Corinthians 13:1). Unintelligible tongues are not useless, however. For when they are prayed or sung privately to God without interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:2,28), they edify the spirits of those who speak or sing them (1 Corinthians 14:4,14-15, Jude 1:20), in order to bless God, and thank God (1 Corinthians 14:16). And when unintelligible tongues are prayed or sung out loud in a congregation, and then Spiritually interpreted (1 Corinthians 12:10b-11), their interpretation edifies the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:5b,12-13,26). When Christians sing in tongues to God, they are singing the "spiritual songs" which the Bible distinguishes from psalms and hymns (Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

The Bible sets no restrictions on how much Christians can pray and sing to God in tongues out loud at home, or silently in church (1 Corinthians 14:28) (just as regular praying can be done silently: 1 Samuel 1:13,17). Indeed, the apostle Paul prayed and sung to God in tongues in private more than anyone (1 Corinthians 14:18-19). But regarding church meetings, the Bible sets strict rules on speaking tongues out loud: They are not to be spoken out loud in church meetings unless there is someone present who can Spiritually interpret them to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:28). And even when a tongues-interpreter is present, at the most only three people should in turn speak out loud in unknown tongues, which should then be interpreted to the whole congregation (1 Corinthians 14:27). Everyone who has received the gift of tongues should be praying for the separate gift of the interpretation of tongues, so that he or she can edify others (1 Corinthians 14:12-13; 1 Corinthians 12:10b).

Doug Melven said in post #2359:

What negates the freewill of the world-class sprinter from running a mile in 2 minutes?

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Free will does not mean that we can choose to do anything at all. For example, someone who is 5-feet-2-inches tall cannot choose to become an NBA player, just as someone who was born in India cannot choose to become the U.S. President (due to restrictions in the U.S. Constitution that the President must be U.S.-born). So someone's biology and history can constrict his choices in life.

But his will is still free in the sense that no one can make him do anything that he does not want to do, or make him not do anything that he does want to do and is able to do based on his biology and history.

The point of free will is that God had no interest in making humans like robots who could do nothing but what He had programmed them to do, whether they liked it or not. Instead, God created real human children who have the ability to choose to do or not do the right thing, and the ability to choose to do or not do the wrong thing.

If people did not have this ability, God could not logically reward people for choosing to do the right thing (Matthew 25:21), or punish them for choosing to do the wrong thing (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) or choosing not to do the right thing (Luke 12:47, Matthew 25:26-30).

OSAS ultimately negates free will.

Doug Melven said in post #2359:

Those who wake to shame and everlasting contempt never trusted Christ.

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Note that nothing requires that (cf. 2 Peter 2:20-22).

Doug Melven said in post #2359:

No salvation requires works.

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Ultimate salvation does (Romans 2:6-8).

Doug Melven said in post #2359:

All salvation requires is faith.

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Not ultimately (James 2:24).

Doug Melven said in post #2359:

Show me one verse in Paul's epistles that say we need to be water baptized to be saved.

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Ultimately (Romans 6:5).

Some people feel that baptism cannot be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation is not based on works, but on faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9). But baptism is a kind of circumcision (Colossians 2:11-13, Philippians 3:3, Romans 2:29). Just as Abraham, who is a model for Christians, was initially saved by faith alone, prior to his circumcision (Romans 4), so Christians are initially saved by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:2-5), prior to their baptism (Acts 8:36-38, John 20:31). But just as Abraham was ultimately saved by his works (James 2:21-24), so Christians will be ultimately saved by their works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b), which must include getting water-immersion (burial) baptized (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

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Doug Melven said in post #2365:

[Isa.] 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee,

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With conditions.

For example, Romans 11:20-22 is a warning to Christians who are currently standing by faith (Romans 11:20) that they can end up being cut off the same as non-Christians (Luke 12:45-46), they can end up losing their salvation, if they do not continue in God's goodness.

justbyfaith said in post #2388:

They will never fall away from faith, for they are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5).

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Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

justbyfaith said in post #2388:

The Holy Spirit seals faith into their heart that cannot be lost or taken away from them.

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Except by their own free will.

For Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him in order to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

Nicolaus Mourer said:

There are all kinds of problems with what you're saying, but you're not listening to anybody, that's my point. You didn't offend me - I'm just zealous of the truth, of which you are not speaking or preaching.

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Let's work through the problems with what I'm saying. I'm listening to anybody that is speaking from a position that allows the whole counsel of God's Word to be heard. OSAS does not allow that standard. As I told FreeGrace, I try to always separate the doctrine of OSAS, which I hate, from the person who adheres to the doctrine, because I love the person deeply and sincerely. So I might be offensive with regard to the false tenets of OSAS. That is not directed at you the person. I haven't stuck around here for over 100 pages for the purpose of offending people.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

So, despite the fact that I proved my point via many other scriptures, you’re still going to arrogantly and ignorantly based your entire belief about salvation off of one verse? You’re a lost cause. I fail to see the point of arguing with someone as authoritative on scripture as yourself, seeing as how everyone else is wrong, and you’re so correct. Be correct then, even unto your own foolish pride. But realize that the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized, yet he went to heaven because he BELIEVED. But I guess you’ll find some loophole around that one to prevent your ego from being struck.

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It is actually the maniacal focus and entire system of belief based on a single misrepresented verse (John 10:28) that has led me to use a similar approach with a verse (Mark 16:16) that refutes the premise on which the former is based. We have been fed a steady diet of John 10:28 since long before I ever brought up baptism or Mark 16:16, so don't lecture me about being obsessed with a single verse of scripture. Throw out Mark 16:16 if you want. There are dozens of others about baptism, entire books of the Bible in fact, that you will have to throw out as well, which I'm sure you are happy to do.

Blood Bought 1953 said:

You will be judged by Paul’s Gospe(1cor15:1-4) Jesus told us to follow Paul as he follows Christ.Pauls missives where to the gentiles, James letter was sent to the twelve tribes of Israel—- that ain’t us.
Let’s Thank James for his great contributions to scripture, but when it comes to our salvation we must follow Jesus and His latest marching orders.Jesus said to follow Paul not James , He said I will judge you by what you did with Paul’s Gospel,not the gospel of James. The book of James is great for practical Christian Living.Jesus said to go with Paul for a guarantee of salvation found in Paul’s Gospel of Grace, given to him and to him only—- for us.The Holy Spirit that lead us to believe Paul’s Gospel will do a work inside us that will cause us to do good works naturally,unlike the dead works we performed in our unregenerate state.These good works did not save us nor will they keep us saved.Believing that would make one a modern- day Judaizer or legalists—- you would join the “accursed”Faith plus nothing.Be VERY careful with what you do with Paul’s Gospel, you are going to be asked about it.

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James addresses his audience at "my brethren". Unless James was not a Christian, THAT'S US. As for Paul's Gospel, which you so proudly pronounce allegiance to, you follow it right up to the point where the apostle himself went down into the waters of baptism to wash away his sins and that is where you stop. So yes, Be VERY careful what you do with Paul's Gospel.

112358 said:

He identified the subject of the personal pronouns “them” and “they” in the previous verses. The subject of the personal pronouns were His Sheep. And He identified who His sheep were. Those that hear Him and follow Him. For about the 55th time.

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I see that you are quite stuck on v.27. I suggest backing up several chapters to read WHO possesses (that means being given) eternal life: which is believers.

John 5:24, 6:47. That's where the recipients are established. Again, for the millionth time, v.27 is merely a description of Jesus' sheep, not conditions for being a sheep.
His sheep are those who believe in Him for salvation, and He gives eternal life to those who believe in Him for salvation.

And, on THAT BASIS ALONE, they shall never perish. v.28

Doug Melven said:

What Mark 16:16 doesn't teach.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?
Here is an excerpt from that page.
Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7).

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I can cut and paste a bunch of stuff from the internet that refutes OSAS too Doug. You think I haven't heard all this before a thousand times? I'd rather discuss what YOU have to say about the whole counsel of God's Word.

I'm accused of placing my trust in myself by saying, as the Word says, that baptism is essential for salvation. My trust should be placed in my belief alone, correct? You think your belief is not placing trust in yourself? Is it really your belief that saves you, or is it the underlying reality and power behind the belief, which is the fact that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that saves you? It is not the act of obeying the command to believe or to be baptized that saves us, it is the Rock, the substance of our hope. That's what faith, or belief, is right? The substance of things hoped for. I'm no Greek scholar like several here apparently are, but the Greek word for substance means "the fundamental reality that supports all else".

And so the Rock, The Son of God, the fundamental reality that supports all else, the Source of the power behind our salvation, has commanded us to both believe and be baptized. OSAS accepts the former, but rejects the latter. And that is why I reject OSAS. I accept the Rock.

Doug Melven said:

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

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Nope. It just says that if one is baptized then he is saved. I'll place my bet on that.

112358 said:

Glad you keep bringing up 1 Peter.

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My pleasure.

The very same Peter that preached the first Gospel sermon on the day of Pentecost and told the Jews to repent and be baptized right?

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And this has been thoroughly explained to you. They were to be baptized BECAUSE they had believed.

The very same Peter who baptized Cornelius and his household in water?

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I guess you're just not paying any attention. I PROVED from that text that they received the baptism with the Holy Spirit way BEFORE they were immersed by Peter.

Again:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

We see from v.44 that they received the Holy Spirit, which is what John the baptizer referred to when he explained that he baptized with water, but Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit.
v.45 shows that the Jewish believers recognized this baptism with the Holy Spirit.
v.46 was evidence of the Gentiles' baptism with the Spirit.
v.47 shows Peter also recognizing their baptism with the Spirit and ONLY THEN says they should be water baptized.
v.47 they were immersed in water, which was way AFTER they were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

If you disagree with any of this analysis, please take my points one at a time and SHOW how and why I'm in error here.

But in his epistle he refers to a different baptism than those in which he participated in Acts?

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He sure did. And I explained in detail 1 Pet 3:20,21. If you have disagreement with my analysis, please go back to that post and take it point by point to show how I am in error.

Ya’ll got a lot of different baptisms going on here, so it’s a good thing he told us which one he meant with the reference to Noah and family and what saved them..which was water.

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He did NOT. He clarified that Noah and family were saved THROUGH WATER, not BY water. And in v.21 he clarified that the literal water is a SYMBOL of the baptism that does save us, which is Spirit baptism.

But if you really don't want to believe any of this, that is your prerogative, but you'll be rejecting the truth.

Furthermore, why even mention the removal of filth from the flesh if water were not involved?

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Of course water is involved in water baptism. No one said otherwise. But the whole point of Noah's physical deliverance (salvation from the flood) was by STAYING DRY in the ark, a picture of Christ. He was literally saved from being killed by water, don'tcha know?

It was the rest of humanity that was killed by the waters of the flood, don'tcha know?

What other medium pray tell involves removal of filth from the flesh?

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Water, which is a SYMBOL of the baptism that now saves. Which means Holy Spirit baptism.

But I guess you just don't want to believe what John the baptizer said in:
Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16 and John 1:33.

So it appears you don't differentiate between the 2 baptisms that John clearly noted.

Almost forgot. The antitype is the fact that water saved the material, physical life of Noah and family

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This is directly the whole problem; you are reading the text wrong, and not even thinking about what you've said here.

The water DID NOT SAVE anyone in the ark. But please explain HOW you think that the flood waters did save Noah and family. I'm up for some chuckles.

I will tell you this again. The flood waters KILLED humanity, minus Noah and family.

Why? They were saved by the ark, not the water.

Your claim is ridiculous and senseless.

There’s pesky old Mark 16:16 still hanging around.

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Not pesky at all. But those who fulfill 2 Tim 2:15 easily discern that the 'baptism' in that verse refers to Holy Spirit baptism, the same baptism we see in Acts 10:44, not v.48.

112358 said:

Dude. You are the ones claiming that the baptism in Mark 16 is Holy Spirit baptism, not me. Of course I can’t heal him. Only the apostles and their delegates could do that.

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So why the silly invitation to me to heal your friend?

That’s why you and Doug can’t heal him either. That’s the point I was making when facetiously inviting you to come try. I’ll try not to be so sarcastic in the future. My mistake.

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The point was greatly missed.

Bible2+ said:

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

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Obviously you're a broken record. You've been refuted soundly from Scripture.

Bible2+ said:

Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53).

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It's more than a down payment. It's a GUARANTEE.

But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian,

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Hogwash.

Paul said it GUARANTEES the believer's inheritance for the day of redemption.

And Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But you are free to believe whatever tickles your ears.

just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place.

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This is just a pathetic analogy, not even close to the guarantee that God promises those who have believed.

For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will.

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Irrelevant fact. We are NOT in charge of our new birth. Once born again, which is of IMPERISHABLE SEED (1 Pet 1:23), we shall never perish (John 10:28).

The Bible is perfectly in harmony.

So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19)

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Interesting that you bring up quenching the Spirit. How different is grieving the Spirit, from Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So, EVEN grieving the Spirit doesn't effect this GUARANTEE of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

And you cannot show from Scripture that quenching the Spirit DOES effect this GUARANTEE.

112358 said:

Let's work through the problems with what I'm saying. I'm listening to anybody that is speaking from a position that allows the whole counsel of God's Word to be heard.

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No you're not.

OSAS does not allow that standard.

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Nonsense. Of course it does.

As I told FreeGrace, I try to always separate the doctrine of OSAS, which I hate, from the person who adheres to the doctrine

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Basically, you HATE what Jesus taught in John 10:28, the single best verse about eternal security. That's where you are.

because I love the person deeply and sincerely. So I might be offensive with regard to the false tenets of OSAS. That is not directed at you the person. I haven't stuck around here for over 100 pages for the purpose of offending people.

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Your hatred and views deeply offend Jesus Christ, don'tcha know?

112358 said:

It is actually the maniacal focus and entire system of belief based on a single misrepresented verse (John 10:28) that has led me to use a similar approach with a verse (Mark 16:16) that refutes the premise on which the former is based.

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Nonsense. You've failed to show how John 10:28 has been "misrepresented" in any way.

The wording is extremely clear. Recipients of eternal life will never perish. You've not shown it means otherwise.

We have been fed a steady diet of John 10:28 since long before I ever brought up baptism or Mark 16:16

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The failure to recognize what John the baptizer said about his water baptism and Jesus' baptism with the Holy Spirit is the downfall of your opinions.

so don't lecture me about being obsessed with a single verse of scripture.

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You're obsessed with just 1 of the 7 biblical baptisms. In fact, it seems you're not even willing to acknowledge the other 6.

Throw out Mark 16:16 if you want.

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No one needs to do that, which would be stupid. But everyone needs to accept the fact that the Bible describes 7 baptisms, some wet and some dry.

When John the baptizer spoke of Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and FIRE, do you really think He was talking about being immersed in a bonfire?

There are dozens of others about baptism, entire books of the Bible in fact, that you will have to throw out as well, which I'm sure you are happy to do.

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Acts 10 and 11 has been thoroughly explained to you, but it is clear that your eyes and ears are tightly closed, so as to prevent any truth from entering between your ears.