OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

EmSw · Jun 7, 2018

amariselle said:
I have no idea why you persist in trying to put yourself and everyone else back under the “Old Covenant”. One would think you’d be overjoyed that all of the Old Testament prophecies and promises have been fulfilled in Christ.

As I’m sure you are aware, we are not under the Old Covenant. (And the Old Covenant only ever pointed to Christ).

I don't think very many here were ever under the Old Covenant. I surely wan't. Were you? If you were, tell us about why it was so hard for you.

Here's what I see of the new covenant -

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The law wasn't abolished, but rather, it was written on the hearts of those of the new covenant. Why was the law written on our hearts? Think about it for a minute. Was it written on our hearts so they we don't obey them? That just doesn't make sense.

The Old Covenant was written on stone; the New Covenant is written on your hearts.

amariselle said:
So, let us look at what is said in regard to those “cut off” under the “New Covenant”:

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear...- Romans 11:19-20

As I said earlier, I find nowhere where anyone was cut off for unbelief. I was hoping you could provide passages in the OT which stated such. But I see you didn't.

amariselle said:
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

amariselle said:
- Romans 10:1-4

Perhaps you can show us where Jesus said He was the end of the law for righteousness. I don't think you will find it.

Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God; they were blameless in all the ordinances and laws.

amariselle said:
Right, and it cannot be earned in any way, shape or form based on our own merits.

And likewise, it can't be given to those who continue in wickedness.

Athanasius377 · Jun 7, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I can't see the link !
Not allowed in my country...
Uffa.

It's a water tower that says Florence Y'all. It's a running joke around here .

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
Oh, Jesus did everything perfectly, and it was enough to save us.

Agreed. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.

EmSw said:
He did not fail in the least, as you seem to think of me. It is man's failure if he is not saved.

We have all failed, Scripture says this is true. You are correct, Jesus did not fail in the least.

EmSw said:
Who is to blame if man is not saved?

The price has been paid, the one time and all sufficient sacrifice has been made, if one refuses to come to Christ and receive our salvation by faith, that is indeed on them.

EmSw said:
Didn't Jesus do enough to save him?

Absolutely. And, to keep us saved.

EmSw said:
Where did you get that Jesus pointed out that he did not keep it at all? When the young man said he kept those from his youth up, Jesus did not tell him he was lying, or any other statement which indicates the young man didn't keep them.

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich. - Luke 18:18:30

As I’m sure you’re aware, no one has kept the Law perfectly in thought, word and deed, from birth to death, except Christ. (And Jesus had just told this man that no one is good but God.) Neither had this man. He loved his material wealth and possessions more than Christ’s teaching regarding treasure in heaven and following Him.

EmSw said:
I sure hope you aren't rich. If so, you can hardly enter the kingdom. Hopefully you can push a camel through the eye of a needle.

You don’t need to worry about me, I’m not rich (monetarily). However, that’s precisely the point. The understanding would have been that a wealthy Jewish man was very blessed by God. And so, the disciples were astonished at Jesus’ words. Salvation is not possible with man, only with God. No one is entering Heaven on their own merits.

EmSw said:
With men, it is impossible to be saved.

Yes.

EmSw said:
However, Jesus gave the instructions and commandments by which we may be saved. These instructions and commandments are God's, thus making it possible for us to be saved.

Incorrect. Jesus laid down His life as a “propitiation” for us so that we who believe are saved. He did not give us more rules to follow for salvation. That would be “works based” salvation, not grace.

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. - Romans 4:1-8

If we follow rules to get saved, then we are earning salvation. It is no longer a gift, but a reward.

EmSw said:
I sure don't trust in myself for righteousness and I surely don't despise others, like some on this board I have seen.

Meaning me no doubt.

EmSw said:
So, tell me, is this the way for a man to be justified? Or, is there another way? I wonder how many 'OSAS believers' actually humble themselves before God like this man. How many actually ask for God to be merciful to them as a sinner.

You think that a person who has come to the realization that they can do nothing to save themselves, and that the only hope of salvation we have is Christ, hasn’t “humbled themselves before God”? What would constitute humbling oneself sufficiently in your opinion?

EmSw said:
If a man can be justified like the man above, what sins needed to be purged? What other things did Jesus need to accomplish? Was the man above just temporarily justified? Was it not a complete justification?

Jesus did it all. We believe Him. It really is that simple. Eternally saved and secure.

EmSw said:
We also read in Luke 19 that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus. What further things did Jesus need to do to save Zacchaeus? Was it not a completed salvation for Zacchaeus? Do you believe Zacchaeus was saved at that moment?

Who came to Zacchaeus’ house? Jesus. Where is salvation found? In Jesus.

EmSw said:
Jesus never said to keep the law perfectly. That is made up by man. Where do you find a requirement of keeping the law perfectly?

If one is to enter Heaven on works, then yes, keeping the Law perfectly is essential. Problem is, no one has done that. All have sinned and sin is “transgression of the Law". Only Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled the Law. Only He is the sinless, spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

marineimaging · Jun 7, 2018

Major1 said:
LOL!...….That is exactly what I am saying.

Every single human being to ever walk this earth is a dirty rotten sinner and had to accept the Lord Jesus Christ by faith in order to escape the judgment of God.

There is a hell and a heaven and only faith in Christ gets us to heaven. No works, No religion! Just FAITH in Christ.

It is just that simple!

AAAAMMMMEEEEENNNN! Amen!

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
I don't think very many here were ever under the Old Covenant. I surely wan't. Were you? If you were, tell us about why it was so hard for you.

Of course I wasn't, nor am I the one that keeps bringing the Old Covenant into the discussion.

EmSw said:
Here's what I see of the new covenant -

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The law wasn't abolished, but rather, it was written on the hearts of those of the new covenant. Why was the law written on our hearts? Think about it for a minute. Was it written on our hearts so they we don't obey them? That just doesn't make sense.

No, what doesn't make sense is that you seem to believe we need to keep the 10 commandments to be saved or stay saved. If the Law couldn't save anyone in the OT, why do you think it can save anyone now?

It is only through Christ's sacrifice, His propitiation for us, that the Law is "written on our hearts" as we become a "new creation in Christ", and He is the one who fulfilled the Law.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:19-28

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16

EmSw said:
The Old Covenant was written on stone; the New Covenant is written on your hearts.

Correct.

EmSw said:
As I said earlier, I find nowhere where anyone was cut off for unbelief.

I shared the verses several times. If you don't want to read them, or believe them, that's your choice.

EmSw said:
I was hoping you could provide passages in the OT which stated such. But I see you didn't.

Again, why do you keep bringing the Old Covenant up? We are not under the Law.

EmSw said:
Perhaps you can show us where Jesus said He was the end of the law for righteousness. I don't think you will find it.

Romans 10:4 tells us that plainly. Do you not consider Paul's Epistles to be inspired Scripture?

EmSw said:
Zachariah and Elizabeth were righteous before God; they were blameless in all the ordinances and laws.

Indeed, Scripture ascribes "righteousness" or "blamelessness" to many who we also know were not without sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We also know that Zachariah doubted God's promise regarding his son, John, and so he was struck mute. The point is that Zachariah and Elizabeth were not perfect or sinless, but they did find favour with God.

EmSw said:
And likewise, it can't be given to those who continue in wickedness.

No one who is truly saved, born again, made a new creation in Christ, passed from death to life and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption is "continuing in wickedness." They are redeemed, purchased with the precious blood of Christ. Nothing and no one can separate them from His love or take them out of His hand, neither will He cast them out or forsake them. He will lose nothing, but will raise all who are His up on the "last day."

Jesus never fails. No one who has placed all of their hope and trust in Him need ever be ashamed or afraid.

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
I am amazed at those who call Jesus Lord and Master, who do not want to keep His commandments.

Who said anything about not wanting to keep His commandments?

I am amazed that many who call Jesus Lord, Master, and Saviour, don't actually believe He did enough to save them. They believe His sacrifice is insufficient and that their obedience and works are required as well. Scripture has much to say about this.

EmSw said:
It's like His commandments are some kind of lethal disease.

Of course they're not. All Christians should be disciples, present their bodies as a "living sacrifice" which is their "reasonable service."

On the other hand. One would think Jesus really did fail, to read so much of what Christians write about salvation. Either that, or they just don't think it really is "good news" that Christ did all that is necessary to save us and keep us saved. Nothing more required. We can rest in Him. One would think there would be rejoicing over such amazing and wonderful news. Not so.

EmSw said:
Actually, a person's self does not want to keep His commandments;

A person cannot actually keep the commandments, the Law. That is precisely the point.

EmSw said:
they want an easier way.

An "easier way", like the "simplicity that's in Christ", like "resting in Him"?

EmSw said:
They want it to where their desires are kept, and not have to rid themselves of evil in their heart. They do not want any kind of lord ruling in their lives.

That's nonsense. You really think that those who understand the precious gift of salvation that has been purchased with the blood of Christ, our wonderful Saviour, actually just want to have an "evil heart" and not acknowledge Jesus as Lord of lords and King of kings? Wow.

Remember, he who has been forgiven much loves much. (Luke 7:40-50)

EmSw · Jun 7, 2018

I asked:
We also read in Luke 19 that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus. What further things did Jesus need to do to save Zacchaeus? Was it not a completed salvation for Zacchaeus? Do you believe Zacchaeus was saved at that moment?

You said:

amariselle said:
Who came to Zacchaeus’ house? Jesus. Where is salvation found? In Jesus.

You didn't give any thing more that Jesus needed to do to save Zacchaeus. You didn't say if his salvation was complete or not. If Zacchaeus was saved then, why did Jesus need to go to the cross for salvation?

Why did Zacchaeus receive salvation? Please be specific.

amariselle said:
If one is to enter Heaven on works, then yes, keeping the Law perfectly is essential. Problem is, no one has done that. All have sinned and sin is “transgression of the Law". Only Jesus Christ perfectly fulfilled the Law. Only He is the sinless, spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Your assumption of keeping the law perfectly to enter Heaven is not in the Bible. I asked you for passages which state such, but you have failed to do so. I could as easily say only those who believe perfectly will get to Heaven. Is that what you believe?

EmSw · Jun 7, 2018

amariselle said:
No, what doesn't make sense is that you seem to believe we need to keep the 10 commandments to be saved or stay saved. If the Law couldn't save anyone in the OT, why do you think it can save anyone now?

I asked another OSASer on this board a question, and he couldn't or wouldn't answer. Let's see if you are able to answer.

If the law couldn't save anyone, how were OT saints saved? Please show OT passages which support your answer.

amariselle said:
It is only through Christ's sacrifice, His propitiation for us, that the Law is "written on our hearts" as we become a "new creation in Christ", and He is the one who fulfilled the Law.

But Zacchaeus was saved without any sacrifice, no propitiation. How is that?

So, what Jesus did, you take merit for? If that's what you want, then be sure to take plenty.

Why does man need to crucify himself if Jesus was crucified for him? Why did Jesus say for us to take OUR cross? Why do we need to take OUR cross if Jesus did it all on His cross?

EmSw · Jun 7, 2018

amariselle said:
A person cannot actually keep the commandments, the Law. That is precisely the point.

May I ask which commandment(s) are you unable to keep? I don't find them difficult to keep. Do you? Or, is it you are unwilling to keep them? I'm just asking.

If answering will convict you and bring you embarrassment, please don't answer. I don't want to know what skeletons may be hiding in your 'closet'.

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
I asked:
We also read in Luke 19 that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus. What further things did Jesus need to do to save Zacchaeus? Was it not a completed salvation for Zacchaeus? Do you believe Zacchaeus was saved at that moment?

You said:

You didn't give any thing more that Jesus needed to do to save Zacchaeus. You didn't say if his salvation was complete or not. If Zacchaeus was saved then, why did Jesus need to go to the cross for salvation?

Jesus is “the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.” The only way anyone is saved, past, present and future is through His sacrifice. Period.

I would think you understand that Jesus knew precisely why He came and what His purpose was. He wasn’t just some guru teaching people how to live good and moral lives so that they could ultimately save themselves through their own obedience.

The plan and promise of salvation was always known to God, and He is faithful to fulfill it.

EmSw said:
Why did Zacchaeus receive salvation? Please be specific.

Zacchaeus received salvation the same way everyone always has, through faith in God’s promise. This was fulfilled in Christ.

EmSw said:
Your assumption of keeping the law perfectly to enter Heaven is not in the Bible.

Sure it is. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, correct?

The wages of sin is death, correct.

Sin is transgression of the Law.

The Law is a “school master” to point us to Christ, to stop our mouths and show us that we are in fact guilty and deserving of death.

But good news! The gift of God is eternal life through faith in His Son.

EmSw said:
I asked you for passages which state such, but you have failed to do so. I could as easily say only those who believe perfectly will get to Heaven. Is that what you believe?

I believe precisely what Scripture says in regard to salvation. I have shared verse after verse in that regard.

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
May I ask which commandment(s) are you unable to keep? I don't find them difficult to keep.

Really? So, you have kept the 10 commandments perfectly, in thought word and deed, from birth to death?

You don’t lie? You don’t covet? You never get unjustly angry with anyone?

Congratulations in that case. You have no need of a Saviour. Only the “sick” need a doctor after all.

EmSw said:
Do you?

I understand that the “flesh” wars against the Spirit and that “in my flesh dwells no good thing.” I’m not trusting in my “good works” to save me. (I used to, believe me). Now I’m trusting only in Christ.

EmSw said:
Or, is it you are unwilling to keep them? I'm just asking.

Nope. Not unwilling, just not able in my “flesh.”

EmSw said:
If answering will convict you and bring you embarrassment, please don't answer. I don't want to know what skeletons may be hiding in your 'closet'.

Don’t worry, I’m not going to share personal information online like that.

But, I have no embarrassment or shame in taking the focus off of myself and putting it all on Christ, keeping my eyes fixed on Him. All praise, glory and honour to God for the gift of salvation which I have not earned and do not deserve.

amariselle · Jun 7, 2018

EmSw said:
I asked another OSASer on this board a question, and he couldn't or wouldn't answer. Let's see if you are able to answer.

If the law couldn't save anyone, how were OT saints saved? Please show OT passages which support your answer.

What precisely do you have against the New Testament? We need the full counsel of God.

All those in the OT who were saved, were saved by faith just as we are. They looked forward to the hope of salvation in Christ, we now look back. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all. There is no other Name given among men by which we’re saved. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the only way to the Father.

The Old Testament Scriptures point to Christ, He Himself said this. And the OT is filled with prophecies and types and shadows of Christ, which all have their fulfillment in the NT.

EmSw said:
But Zacchaeus was saved without any sacrifice, no propitiation. How is that?

No. He was saved just as everyone who has ever been saved is.

EmSw said:
So, what Jesus did, you take merit for? If that's what you want, then be sure to take plenty.

What are you even saying? I don’t take credit for what Jesus did. You haven’t been paying attention, obviously. I quite clearly said I do not deserve what He did to save me. It’s beyond me how you think you can twist things around like that, or why you would even want to.

EmSw said:
Why does man need to crucify himself if Jesus was crucified for him?

Now this conversation is just getting ridiculous. No one but you has said any such thing. And what a bizarre thing to say. Do you understand, even a little, the unfathomable price that was paid by Christ for salvation?

EmSw said:
Why did Jesus say for us to take OUR cross? Why do we need to take OUR cross if Jesus did it all on His cross?

To be His disciples. Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.

EmSw · Jun 8, 2018

amariselle said:
What precisely do you have against the New Testament? We need the full counsel of God.

Isn't the OT the full counsel of God? I don't have anything against the NT.

amariselle said:
All those in the OT who were saved, were saved by faith just as we are. They looked forward to the hope of salvation in Christ, we now look back. Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all. There is no other Name given among men by which we’re saved. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, the only way to the Father.

You say they were saved by faith, but didn't prove that from OT passages. Were do you find they 'looked forward' to the hope of salvation in Christ. I was hoping you could provide OT passages to back up what you say, but you didn't.

I have asked the other person over 20 times to provide OT passages which show how they received life, and he couldn't. It looks like you can't either.

amariselle said:
The Old Testament Scriptures point to Christ, He Himself said this. And the OT is filled with prophecies and types and shadows of Christ, which all have their fulfillment in the NT.

Yes, you are correct, the OT was the Word of God, and as such represented Jesus, Who is the Word. Now show us how OT saints received life with passages to confirm their salvation.

amariselle said:
No. He was saved just as everyone who has ever been saved is.

How is that? It doesn't say he believed in Jesus. It doesn't say anything about a cross, blood, nor a sacrifice.

amariselle said:
What are you even saying? I don’t take credit for what Jesus did. You haven’t been paying attention, obviously. I quite clearly said I do not deserve what He did to save me. It’s beyond me how you think you can twist things around like that, or why you would even want to.

Why do you think I take credit for obeying Him and doing works of charity?

amariselle said:
Now this conversation is just getting ridiculous. No one but you has said any such thing. And what a bizarre thing to say. Do you understand, even a little, the unfathomable price that was paid by Christ for salvation?

You don't believe in taking up your own cross? Why do you need to take up your own cross if you died with Christ on His cross?

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

What is so bizarre about taking up your own cross? If Jesus' cross was totally sufficient, why do we need to take up a cross?

amariselle said:
To be His disciples. Salvation and discipleship are not the same thing.

We take up our cross to be a disciple, right? How about these?

John 8:31
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

John 13:35
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 15:8
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

This is how we become disciples, not by taking up our cross. So now, why do we need to take up our cross?

BobRyan · Jun 8, 2018

Regarding

If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

you said

aiki said:
You used Galatians 5:4 to assert that a person who is born-again can be un-born.

1. Even you admitted that "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" is the loss of salvation. You asked that we not read the NASB ..
2. I did not write Gal 5:4.
3. I pointed out that your preference for "you get no benefit from Christ" and "you are alienated from Christ" is a "distinction without a difference" when it comes to "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from grace" -- since that is the very problem that the lost have and is never the description of the "saved condition" not even remotely "the gospel promise". - you provided not one example of such language used of the "saved". you say the prodigal is still a biological child while wicked... but ignore the fact that the wicked are still biologically the creation of God while wicked. And in Matthew 12 Christ specifically denies family connection with the wicked.
4. So then You propose a "Christless saved condition" that is purely an effort to rescue OSAS from Gal 5:4. What is more "God was in Christ RECONCILING the World to Himself" the very act needed for those who are alienated and who get no benefit from Christ.
5. Your "unborn" suggestion is like arguing that Adam "made in the image of God" and called the "son of God" in the Gospels -- had to first "uncreate himself" -- had to "unborn himself" to become lost and in need of the Gospel. That is total nonsense and we both would admit it yet you try it out to rescue OSAS.

I pointed out some good reasons from the passage in which the verse stands and from the verse itself why this isn't so.

Actually you "pointed out" your preference for NOT reading the NASB and admit that the "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" language is just as we all see it -- the loss of salvation. You speculated that "alienated from Christ" and "Christ is of no benefit to you" is a saved "Christless" condition where one is saved without any benefit at all from Christ. And I pointed out that such a "Christless" saved condition is nowhere promoted in the Bible.

Your response here doesn't address any of what I've pointed out but merely deflects by demanding "more actual quotes that make the case." I don't see that I have to do any more than I've done

I merely present "your preference" that "aliented from Christ" and having "no benefit from Christ" is a valid "saved condition" as if there is such a thing as a "christless gospel" and ask us why you should have to provide some sort of "substance" for that extreme attempt to rescue OSAS from Gal 5:4??

And this is supposed to be "my problem"? Really?

I gave you a perfectly reasonable analogy illustrating how one can be separated, or alienated, from Christ and still be one of his.

You in fact never show a "you are my disciples when you are alienated from Me - separated from Me, and get no benefit from anything I have done" statement by Christ in all of scripture. For that idea you "quote you". There is no Christless Gospel - and yet you make the case as if we should "assume it". you cannot "assume" the salient point of your own argument and expect it to survive as a sort of 'substantive proof' of it.

A great biblical example of what I've said is found in the parable of the Prodigal Son. No matter how physically separated from his father he was and alienated from his father by his evil living, the Prodigal Son was never not his father's son.

Instead teaching "prodigal son saved even while wicked" - Christ's Gospel teaches "by their fruits you shall know them" Matt 7 evil fruit does not come from a good tree. The saved person produces "good fruit" one of which being "perseverance" in doing God as Romans 2 points out.

God is the creator of all mankind - that does not change when a person is wicked. But that wicked person derives no benefit from God as his creator -- just as the prodigal derived no benefit while choosing rebellion. The notion of the "wicked saved" is not presented in the Bible at all. There is no indication at all that some blessing was being experienced by the prodigal while separated - rather he was in the same condition as all the worldly-wicked around him. He was getting no "food packages from home" nor any indication at all that while in rebellion his father protected or sheltered or made him in anyway better off than the world folks around him.

You resort to the "Adam must first uncreate himself" style of argument here when no such language is used in that parable or in any other text of scripture.

Even if the son had died, he would still have been his father's son.

Biologically yes - just like the wicked who die in their sins are still beings created by God.

Jesus asked the question "WHO IS my Mother, my brother my sister?"

Matthew 12
48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

He does not get into "unborn yourself out of my family" He merely denies the very "family connection" you claim is still there for the wicked in the christless-gospel needed to rescue OSAS from Gal 5:4

I've not suggested anywhere that one can be saved apart from Christ.

You appear to be saying "saved while alienated from Christ ... and getting no benefit at all from Christ - is not "saved apart from Christ" -- a distinction without a difference.

That's what you appear to be arguing for, not me. A born-again believer may not live out who they are in Christ and still be born-again. Paul wrote of such believers:

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?

Which is not "you are alienated from Christ... you get no benefit at all from Christ" your argument that "babes in Christ" means "alienated from Christ ... getting no benefit from Christ" is not something we find in the actual Bible -- you have to "quote you" for that idea. Hebrews 5 also uses that term but never states that it mean "alienated from Christ" or "getting no benefit at all from Christ"

GodsGrace101 · Jun 8, 2018

aiki said:
Well, you see, I don't think it is "all over the N.T." as you say. And I've already explained why I don't think one can be saved-and-lost in an earlier post.

Of course it's all over the N.T. AND the O.T.
Some just don't want to see it for whatever reason.
In the O.T. it took faith to be saved.
In the N.T. it took faith to be saved.
No faith, no salvation.

If it were not possible to lose faith, Paul and Peter and James and all the writers would not have warned us against it.

2 Chronicles 15:2 (KJV) 2And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.”

Ezekiel 33:12 (KJV) “ Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.”

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you,provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation.

Matt. 5:13 Jesus said
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

And so many more...
It's very clear to those who are willing to read and understand with an open mind.

But his father had given him something else: life. That is, the father was the progenitor of the Prodigal and as such inviolably his father. Remember, the son received an inheritance because he was his father's son.

What did it gain the son to be the father's son if he lived with the pigs had he never gone back home?
Even born again persons get a lot from being born again...
but that is ALL they will get --- nothing at the end. Just like the Prodigal son.

The father was clearly speaking of the character of his fellowship with his son. Quite obviously, the father knew his son had not actually, physically died, and the father was not giving a sermon on the saved-and-lost doctrine, so I don't see how the parable provides ground for thinking the father meant his son was spiritually dead.

Did the son die physically?
No.
So apparently the parable is speaking about SPIRITUAL death--which is what JESUS was concerned with. Jesus was concerned with saving souls for heaven and releasing them from the grip of satan.
Luke 15:24
New American Standard Bible
for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Surely you don't believe the son died physically! It was a spiritual death.

But as the parable illustrates, this has no bearing on whether or not one is a child to one's parent. In the end, the Prodigal went home to his father, not to a stranger.

??
If the son had never gone home, his FELLOWSHIP with the father was over, finished. When had they ever spoken?? Never.
If there is no fellowship with God, there is also NO SALVATION.
To fellowship means to be together, to converse, to agree...

fellowship
ˈfɛlə(ʊ)ʃɪp/
noun

1.
friendly association, especially with people who share one's interests.
"they valued fun and good fellowship as the cement of the community"
sinonimi: companionship, companionability, sociability, comradeship, fraternization, camaraderie, friendship, mutual support, mutual respect, mutual liking;
2.
the status of a fellow of a college or society.
"a fellowship in mathematics"

No fellowship.......No salvation

I don't agree. And as you've stated yourself here, you are guilty of a non sequitur.

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Very good.
1. Every verse you posted is in the present tense. One must BELIEVE in Jesus at the moment of death and not have been cut off from Him.
Mathew 7:19

It does not follow from the things I've espoused in this thread that I think that fellowship with the Holy Spirit is possible if one abandons God and returns to a life of sin. It is precisely my point that the parable of the Prodigal illustrates that such behaviour ends fellowship (but not a relationship) with God.

It is my belief that one in whom the Spirit truly dwells cannot go back into a life of habitual sin. Certainly, abandoning God is not the act of one who really knows Him and is indwelt by His Spirit.

Then why were we warned about this from every writer and from Jesus Himself?
John 15:1-6

Major1 · Jun 8, 2018

EmSw said:
I am amazed at those who call Jesus Lord and Master, who do not want to keep His commandments. It's like His commandments are some kind of lethal disease.

Actually, a person's self does not want to keep His commandments; they want an easier way. They want it to where their desires are kept, and not have to rid themselves of evil in their heart. They do not want any kind of lord ruling in their lives.

MY friend, it is not a matter of NOT WANTING to keep the commands of Jesus Christ.

We SHOULD WANT to but the fact is that we can not do so.

I can not imagine having to live my life having to keep the commands of God in order to be saved. I would go from being in hell one minute to being in heaven the next and there is no way to keep your sanity like that.

When you or anyone else says that we must keep the commands of Jesus in order to be or stay saved, you are in fact saying WHAT YOU WANT SALVATION TO BE AND NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS SALVATION ACTUALLY IS.

Is this verse in your Bible? Romans 3:19-20...…………..
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin".

The thing about the keeping the commandments is that no amount of “law-keeping” can ever erase any “law-breaking.” The law, in fact, is only concerned with those who violate it, not those who keep it. I have never had a Police Officer pull me over for driving safely within the speed limit, but I have been pulled over for breaking the posted speed limit! And, frankly, the Officer really didn’t care that I had driven the last hundred miles within the speed limit, nor did he really care that I drove the rest of the way home slowly. I received a ticket for breaking the law, but I have never received a commendation for obeying it!
Why Keeping God’s Commandments Cannot Save You

This is the dilemma faced by your theology and anyone else who attempts to be saved, or stay saved by keeping God’s Law. You can keep it perfectly your entire life, yet if you break it one single time, you are guilty and a “Law-breaker.”

That my friend is an impossible way of living...IMO.

Major1 · Jun 8, 2018

EmSw said:
Whether you or any other Christian is a part of eternal life or not, it will always be eternal. You are not the one who makes it eternal. Eternal life will always be eternal life.

Oh, Jesus did everything perfectly, and it was enough to save us. He did not fail in the least, as you seem to think of me. It is man's failure if he is not saved.

Who is to blame if man is not saved? Didn't Jesus do enough to save him?

Where did you get that Jesus pointed out that he did not keep it at all? When the young man said he kept those from his youth up, Jesus did not tell him he was lying, or any other statement which indicates the young man didn't keep them.

I sure hope you aren't rich. If so, you can hardly enter the kingdom. Hopefully you can push a camel through the eye of a needle.

With men, it is impossible to be saved. However, Jesus gave the instructions and commandments by which we may be saved. These instructions and commandments are God's, thus making it possible for us to be saved.

I sure don't trust in myself for righteousness and I surely don't despise others, like some on this board I have seen.

So, tell me, is this the way for a man to be justified? Or, is there another way? I wonder how many 'OSAS believers' actually humble themselves before God like this man. How many actually ask for God to be merciful to them as a sinner.

If a man can be justified like the man above, what sins needed to be purged? What other things did Jesus need to accomplish? Was the man above just temporarily justified? Was it not a complete justification?

We also read in Luke 19 that salvation came to the house of Zacchaeus. What further things did Jesus need to do to save Zacchaeus? Was it not a completed salvation for Zacchaeus? Do you believe Zacchaeus was saved at that moment?

Jesus never said to keep the law perfectly. That is made up by man. Where do you find a requirement of keeping the law perfectly?

I may be wrong here, but from what I am reading from you, it seems to me that you are arguing just to argue.

You said...………
"Jesus never said to keep the law perfectly. That is made up by man. Where do you find a requirement of keeping the law perfectly?"

But isn't that what you are saying...…..as you also said this...……
"However, Jesus gave the instructions and commandments by which we may be saved. These instructions and commandments are God's, thus making it possible for us to be saved."

You are saying two different things my friend.

But the Bible says in Galatians 3:10-11...………...
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Does it not other you that what you are espousing is completely different than what the Scriptures actually say????

jamesbond007 · Jun 8, 2018

BobRyan said:
And "yet" not one single verse saying that all who are born again will "persevere firm to the end" or that those who "fall from grace are saved anyway".

They are if they are still born-again. If they have lost their salvation "severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4... then they would no longer be saved.

"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." Gal 5:4 - NASB

Matthew 18 "forgiveness revoked"
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should repay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Rom 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

"every branch IN ME" - John 15
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 13
Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Ezek 18

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Notice the sort of "smack down" that Paul has for some of the unruly saints in Corinth --

1 Cor 6
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure (defeat) for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated? 8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God

========================

Isaiah 5
What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;

The Calvinist has "The answer" to God's lament where God says "what MORE could I have done.. that I have not done?"

The OSAS model says "you could have turned them into robots...'

I'm not certain of this view because it's the first time I've heard of it. I've studied some Japanese Buddhism and have attended Buddhist ceremonies and services. One of the things they talk about is the present and consciousness, and through meditation we find there are different and multiple levels of consciousness. The beginning of services starts with the gong of a large bell. One can smell the faint smell of incense in the air. All of this prepares us for service. The beginning of service involves reciting the kalpas (affirmations of basic principles) and chanting. This puts one at a state to receive the sermon. The present is the now and the Shinran once wrote a poem, "Like the cherry blossom, the heart planning on tomorrow is ephemeral indeed --what sudden storm may not arise in the middle of the night." The meaning is if we plan to view the cherry blossoms tomorrow, then it may not be there because the winds may come up during the night.

From applying what I've learned there, OSAS is a state of mind. We let Jesus into our hearts and are born again, so to speak. Once, you become one with God, then there is this profound change. One can think of it as a different level of consciousness. Intellectually, we can think that anyone can end up doing wrong with their free will, but it's not like that when you accept Jesus and he is the one who leads you.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 8, 2018

Major1 said:
MY friend, it is not a matter of NOT WANTING to keep the commands of Jesus Christ.

We SHOULD WANT to but the fact is that we can not do so.

I can not imagine having to live my life having to keep the commands of God in order to be saved. I would go from being in hell one minute to being in heaven the next and there is no way to keep your sanity like that.

When you or anyone else says that we must keep the commands of Jesus in order to be or stay saved, you are in fact saying WHAT YOU WANT SALVATION TO BE AND NOT WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS SALVATION ACTUALLY IS.

Is this verse in your Bible? Romans 3:19-20...…………..
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin".

The thing about the keeping the commandments is that no amount of “law-keeping” can ever erase any “law-breaking.” The law, in fact, is only concerned with those who violate it, not those who keep it. I have never had a Police Officer pull me over for driving safely within the speed limit, but I have been pulled over for breaking the posted speed limit! And, frankly, the Officer really didn’t care that I had driven the last hundred miles within the speed limit, nor did he really care that I drove the rest of the way home slowly. I received a ticket for breaking the law, but I have never received a commendation for obeying it!
Why Keeping God’s Commandments Cannot Save You

This is the dilemma faced by your theology and anyone else who attempts to be saved, or stay saved by keeping God’s Law. You can keep it perfectly your entire life, yet if you break it one single time, you are guilty and a “Law-breaker.”

That my friend is an impossible way of living...IMO.

You're opinion is wrong.
Sorry but I'm writing for others too.

The above post is writing about being under the law.
We cannot be saved by being under the law of Moses or by trying to keep all the commandments perfectly.

But even in the O.T. persons were saved by faith. Did they keep the commandments perfectly. No. They were saved by faith FIRST and THEN they kept the commandments.

Those who tried to be saved by keeping them and being perfect WITHOUT FAITH are those that were not pleasing to God.

It's the same today. First we get saved...THEN we still have to obey God. Those such as yourself would lead some to believe that God has changed His mind and we no longer have to obey Him.

Are we supposed to obey God or not?
Jesus said many things we're to do.
God doesn't make requests...He requires us to follow Him.
Mathew 7:23
Mathew 7:24
John 14:15
James 1:22

and many others...

GodsGrace101 · Jun 8, 2018

Major1 said:
I may be wrong here, but from what I am reading from you, it seems to me that you are arguing just to argue.

You said...………
"Jesus never said to keep the law perfectly. That is made up by man. Where do you find a requirement of keeping the law perfectly?"

But isn't that what you are saying...…..as you also said this...……
"However, Jesus gave the instructions and commandments by which we may be saved. These instructions and commandments are God's, thus making it possible for us to be saved."

You are saying two different things my friend.

But the Bible says in Galatians 3:10-11...………...
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Does it not other you that what you are espousing is completely different than what the Scriptures actually say????

I wonder what the scriptures say?
To NOT obey God?

You do love to write about THE LAW.
We are no longer UNDER THE LAW, but under grace.
That does not mean we don't follow God's rules.
Be ready.
Mathew 24:42-51

OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

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