GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

Now to clarify one more point, from our earlier discussion, Ellen White indicates that Miller's message was from heaven. Miller's message was that Jesus would return to earth to cleanse the earth sanctuary by fire around 1843.

Do you agree that Miller's false message was the fulfillment of the first angel's message?

And do you agree with T7C that the Millerite movement, with its false message, was the feast of trumpets?

The7thColporteur said:
Christ about to move from Holy to Most Holy in heavenly, announcing of coming Judgment, the Advent Movement beginning with William Miller AD 1833/4, this “five months” [from the 3rd month [Sivan / Pentecost] unto the 7th [Ethanim / Tishri]] from AD 31, anti-tyipcally.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
Hm....nope, the Fundamental belief says it clearly:

He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin,

And so does Ellen White when she keeps referring to the type.

But again, if you wish to depart from SDA belief, feel free. You are certainly better off if you do not do as they do and read into the type.

Sorry tall, your only repeating yourself now. Of course Jesus did, your forgetting that Jesus is not only our high priest but also God and we are dealing with the heavenly here not the earthly and the investigative judgment. I posted these scriptures to you and a study on this already did you forget?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
Now to clarify one more point, from our earlier discussion, Ellen White indicates that Miller's message was from heaven. Miller's message was that Jesus would return to earth to cleanse the earth sanctuary by fire around 1843.

Do you agree that Miller's false message was the fulfillment of the first angel's message?

And do you agree with T7C that the Millerite movement, with its false message, was the feast of trumpets?

I am happy to talk scripture if you like. Not really interested in talking about the SOP and commentaries. I spend most of my time in God's Word alone asking for God's guidence.

The SOP can be twisted just as much as the scriptures can. (this is not directed at you). It seems though that we are now only zipping around from one topic to another. I can see God's talking with you, through our conversations, otherwse you would already be asleep by now (someone must be praying for you).

I only ask that you may prayerfully consider what is being shared with you.

For me, it is not so important how much someone understands the prophecies. This is not a salvation issue. What is important is how well we believe and follow God's WORD through faith that works by love.

As for me my brother it is time for me to get some rest. I will sleep well knowing my faith and trust is in him who loved me and gave himself for me that I should be called a son of God. My prayer is that we may all meet in God's Kingdom

Time for me to sleep now my friend. Nice to talk to you :wave:

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
I am happy to talk scripture if you like. Not really interested in talking about the SOP and commentaries. I spend most of my time in God's Word alone asking for God's guidence.

The SOP can be twisted just as much as the scriptures can. (this is not directed at you). It seems though that we are now only zipping around from one topic to another. I can see God's talking with you, otherwse you would already be asleep. I only ask then you may prayerfully consider what is being shared with you.

I can certainly understand you not wanting to discuss that point of Ellen White's theology.

However, the question regarding T7C's assertion is not based on Ellen White's statement here. So do you think that the trumpets were fulfilled by Miller's false message and his movement?

As to jumping around you showed no problems doing that for most of this thread. It is just when I want to jump to an area of the IJ that you don't care for that you complain.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
I can certainly understand you not wanting to discuss that point of Ellen White's theology.

Well why would I need to. I have read a bit of her writtings. What I got out of them was that she said she is only the lesser light pointing all the greater light of God's WORD. So this is where I spend most of my time

tall73 said:
However, the question regarding T7C's assertion is not based on Ellen White's statement here. So do you think that the trumpets were fulfilled by Miller's false message and his movement?

Sorry tall I have not been following the discussions with you and T7C.

tall73 said:
As to jumping around you showed no problems doing that for most of this thread. It is just when I want to jump to an area of the IJ that you don't care for that you complain.

Well that is not true. I have only followed your lead here.

Ok friend time for me to rest nice to talk to you. May God give you peace and rest as you seek him prayerfully through his Word.

:wave:

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Sorry tall I have not been following the discussions with you and T7C.

It was not from any discussion from me, but his posting in general on the fulfillment of the types.

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
You must be tired get some rest. It seems like your saying there is no more heavenly ministration? That cannot be the case as the heavenly ministration starts as the earthly finishes. Hebrews 8 to Hebrews 10 is comparing the earthly with the OLD Covenant and the heavenly with the New Covenant. If there was no more heavenly ministration Jesus would not be our great high Priest.

He did not stop ministering. He completed the one and only sacrifice of Himself, the death and presentation. It applied to every aspect of the sacrificial system. It only happened once.

Now He applies the benefits of that to those who come to Him.

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
So were you not trying to use Hebrews 9:23-25 as proof texts in reference to the day of atonement?

Of course, because the yearly entry of the high priest with blood is the Day of Atonement. And you have said a number of times in the thread that you admit Day of Atonement references.

He entered through the whole sanctuary, as you already admitted also because it was the inauguration, which required entry through the whole. And it was a once for all entry.

There is no other death--once for all
There is no other entry--once for all
He presented Himself the sacrifice in God's presence. That fulfilled all the blood ministration.

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
In the earthly the lots were selected as the goats were brought into the presence of God so that under the Levitical Priesthood (sinful man) may know the will of God. In the heavenly Christ is both God and High Priest that the earthly point to. The type was to determine the sin offering and the scapegoat. These have already been determined from the foundation of the world and God's plan of salvation for mankind (1 Peter 1:8). Your mixing up the earthly with the heavenly by asking such questions.

No, I am asking you to explain your application of the type. So you admit the selection happened before. We will add that to the list of things you admit happened before 1844.

So you admit selection ahead
you admit death ahead
you admit entry into the sanctuary ahead
you admit entry into God's presence ahead.

You have basically admitted everything the high priest did IN THE TYPE, up until the point he left the sanctuary and performed the scape goat portion.

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Well why would I need to. I have read a bit of her writtings. What I got out of them was that she said she is only the lesser light pointing all the greater light of God's WORD. So this is where I spend most of my time

I certainly agree with you reading only the Bible, instead of Ellen White. However, if you have any interaction with a Seventh-day Adventist church (at least, not an overly liberal one) you will be getting Ellen White's viewpoints directed towards you through direct quotes, or indirect reference.

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

Since I think LGW and I have gotten to the point where we are repeating, I will address the more general audience apart from responding to LGW for the moment.

Now, while LGW may not read Ellen White, the church still considers her writings to be inspired. So for those reading along I will reference her views as normative for Adventist thought.

And she does in fact indicate that she views the investigative judgment as part of the Day of Atonement type.

It is because she characterizes it as fulfillment of the type that she says the investigative judgment is only on professed believers:

In the typical service only those who had come before God with confession and repentance, and whose sins, through the blood of the sin offering, were transferred to the sanctuary, had a part in the service of the Day of Atonement. So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. GC chapter 28

So you have the IJ being only on the professed people of God, because of the type.

But then she adds to the type, indicating the IJ. Instead of the priest performing a cleansing of sin, He is now doing the additional task of an investigative judgment, no where pictured in the type.

Now the question becomes, why even have this judgment? It is supposedly to review the evidence for the angels, etc. However, this is unnecessary as all the motives of the heart will be revealed at Jesus' coming.

Ironically, Ellen White notes that the motives of the heart will be revealed, but quotes only a portion of the text at the end of page 481.

GC: Chap.28

The secret purposes and motives appear in the unerring register; for God "will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts."

She quotes from I Corinthians 4:5. But she leaves off the portion referring to the timing of the event!

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The timing of the text is plain. The Lord will come and then bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the heart. But Ellen White leaves it off, disguising this as part of the investigative judgment.

Any onlooking angels would see the motives of the heart revealed at Jesus' coming, making this IJ unnecessary.

tall73 · Jun 7, 2018

We see in 1847 James White still not holding to an IJ, noting it is not in fact necessary to give the sentence in advance.

It is not necessary that the final sentence should be given before the first resurrection, as some have taught; for the names of the saints are written in heaven, and Jesus, and the angels will certainly know who to raise, and gather to the New Jerusalem. "A Word to the Little Flock"

This also rules out the notion that Daniel 8 points to the restoration of "truth" about the sanctuary in 1844. The prophecy of Daniel 8 is about the activity of the little horn against the sanctuary. And the question asked is until when....will these things happen. After 2,300 days the activities are to stop.

However, nothing changed about the papacy, who the Adventists identify as the little horn, in 1844.

Also, the notion that the "truth" was restored about the sanctuary in 1844 is not accurate either. They did not hold the the investigative judgment view for some time.So even by Adventists standards, they did not figure it out in 1844.

In fact, in 1844 they thought they door was shut, and that no one could come to Christ after that point.

So Christ had only completed one part of His work as our intercessor, to enter upon another portion of the work, and He still pleaded His blood before the Father in behalf of sinners.
This subject was not understood by Adventists in 1844. After the passing of the time when the Saviour was expected, they still believed His coming to be near; they held that they had reached an important crisis and that the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased. It appeared to them to be taught in the Bible that man's probation would close a short time before the actual coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. This seemed evident from those scriptures which point to a time when men will seek, knock, and cry at the door of mercy, and it will not be opened. And it was a question with them whether the date to which they had looked for the coming of Christ might not rather mark the beginning of this period which was immediately to precede His coming. Having given the warning of the judgment near, they felt that their work for the world was done, and they lost their burden of soul for the salvation of sinners, while the bold and blasphemous scoffing of the ungodly seemed to them another evidence that the Spirit of God had been withdrawn from the rejecters of His mercy. All this confirmed them in the belief that probation had ended, or, as they then expressed it, "the door of mercy was shut." GC chapter 24

This was not a restoration of any truth. This was an excuse for believing the false message of William Miller.

bugkiller · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
Yes, I kind of figured you would only agree with part. A lot of the folks who wind up discussing with Adventists probably trend more toward the once saved always saved side of the fence than I do.

I do not buy any of the OSAS theology based on my understanding of the Bible.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hello tall and all,

Goodness, you have been busy by the looks of things with a lot of posting. Nice to see some discussion going on. Although from what I can see, it is only a lot of repetition of what has already been addressed through the scriptures already.

Happy to look at them again if you like.

None pass from death to life if they continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and turn away from God's Word (Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:3-4).

It is unfortunate for you that we Christians have a different covenant which does not include any commandment to keep the sabbath. Therefore we can not sin by not keeping the sabbath. So we are not in unrepentant sin as you keep claiming. [Staff edit].

bugkiller

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
It was not from any discussion from me, but his posting in general on the fulfillment of the types.

Hi tall, thanks for your clarification, but I am not quite sure which posts you are referring to as both T7C and myself have been posting on the fulfillment of the shadows and types in ..

SHADOW LAWS OF THE OLD COVENANT FULFILLED IN THE NEW? COL 2

Are you talking about the posts in this thread above?

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
He did not stop ministering. He completed the one and only sacrifice of Himself, the death and presentation. It applied to every aspect of the sacrificial system. It only happened once.

Now He applies the benefits of that to those who come to Him.

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need

Hi tall, thanks for your post here. Yes I agree that Christs sacrifice applies to every aspect of the sacrificial system within the Sanctuary once and for all sin.

He has not stopped ministering on our behalf. This is what Hebrews is talking about when decribing Christs perfect sacrifice and comparing the two ministrations of the earthly and the heavenly.

This does not mean however that the day of atonement started at Chrsits ascension as previously discussed. There is no scripture for that.

bugkiller · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi tall,

Thanks for your thoughts. I do not think what you have said here is a relevant camparison. We are not talking of something that is similar.

People are not sheep and goats therefore a parable.

Furthermore, I have never disagreed that this parable is not a reference to the judgment.

I think you missed the point of my previous posts here which was that these two groups are divided at the 2nd coming based on a judgment that has already beed completed not on one that is just starting after the second coming.

This is why it is written at the completion of the judgment in heaven...

REVELATION 22:11-12 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. [12], And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

As shown above the completion of the judgment and sentance is given before the 2nd coming.

Hope this helps.

"My sheep know my voice" from Jn 10 is clearly people. It is these sheep that are separated from the goats also people.

bugkiller

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

tall73 said:
LoveGodsWord said: ↑ So were you not trying to use Hebrews 9:23-25 as proof texts in reference to the day of atonement?

Click to expand...

Of course, because the yearly entry of the high priest with blood is the Day of Atonement. And you have said a number of times in the thread that you admit Day of Atonement references.

He entered through the whole sanctuary, as you already admitted also because it was the inauguration, which required entry through the whole. And it was a once for all entry.

There is no other death--once for all
There is no other entry--once for all
He presented Himself the sacrifice in God's presence. That fulfilled all the blood ministration.

The yearly entry of the high Priest with blood is indeed a reference to the day of atonement. However the Hebrews 9:23-25 is not talking about the day of atonement starting. It is comparing the two administrations of the old with the new showing Christs sacrifice is sufficient once and for all. For example if someone is talking about a car it does not mean that they are driving it.

The context and topic of discussion of Hebrews is comparing the old (earthly) and the new (heavelny) Sanctuary ministrations with Christs perfect sacrifice once and for all within the heavenly Sanctuary.

There is no scripture in the whole book of Hebrews stating that the day of atonement started at the resurrection. This is shown very clearly in post # 489. You seem to have ignored it for some reason.

I hope you can pray about it or at least re-read Hebrews 9 and ask yourself where does it say the day of atonement has started.

Something to pray and think about, thanks for sharing.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 7, 2018

bugkiller said:
"My sheep know my voice" from Jn 10 is clearly people. It is these sheep that are separated from the goats also people.

bugkiller

Indeed the parables are explained in other parts of scripture as to what they are referring to.

Thanks for sharing.

bugkiller · Jun 7, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi tall,

Thanks for your thoughts here.

The emphasis on most of your posts has always been for the atonement of God's people and not the cleansing of the Sanctuary which was the reason for the discussion and earlier posts provided.

The emphasis on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16 and the reason for the day of atonement has always been on the cleansing and removal of sin from the Sanctuary and the presence of God resulting in the atonement of God's people.

This is important as it relates directly back to Daniel 8:13-14 on when the cleansing of the Sanctuary was to take start after the establsihment of the little Horn power after the 2300 year prophecy.

Hope this helps

Given current events and past recent history I do not believe you have the correct 2300 days (year prophecy) identified.

bugkiller

GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

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