Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

112358 said:

I absolutely agree with the spirit of everything else you stated. But I take issue here. He said otherwise. And this is the heart of the issue at hand. His requirements for who is saved and who is not are His to give, and this one He has given.

Mark 16:16 will never go away.

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Nor will your blindness to the truth.

FreeGrace2 said:

I'll bet you didn't know that the text from Mark 16:9 to the end of the chapter do NOT occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

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Right. That's why everyone who was becoming a Christian in Acts was running into the waters of baptism in droves. Including the apostle Paul. Makes perfect sense.

112358 said:

My ungodly interpretation. Which of those sign gifts did you say you received when you were baptized with the Holy Spirit again? Like I said I forget. Was it raising people from the dead you said? Or was it healing my dying friend you mentioned? Or can you speak in foreign tongues spontaneously?

JOKE.

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The real joke here, although not actually funny, but more like pathetic, is that your cancer ridden friend hasn't been healed by yourself.

So, obviously, you don't even have what you seem to be demanding of others.

You've heard the phrase, "physician, heal thyself". Well, "hypocrite, heal thy friend".

112358 said:

Why would He need to say "and is baptized not" if someone doesn't believe in the first place? If you don't believe you sure aren't going to be baptized.

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How about this, per Mark 16:16: if water baptism was what was being referred to, which I have proven isn't the case, then Jesus would have said something like this:
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who doesn't believe or believes but doesn't get baptized will be condemned".

But He didn't say that either.

And even if I grant you this very weak argument, you still have to deal with the entire book of Acts.

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Actually, you have to deal with Acts 10 and 11, 1 Cor 1:17 and 1 Pet 3:21, all of which I have explained to you.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I'll bet you didn't know that the text from Mark 16:9 to the end of the chapter do NOT occur in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts.

112358 said:

Right. That's why everyone who was becoming a Christian in Acts was running into the waters of baptism in droves. Including the apostle Paul. Makes perfect sense.

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I guess you don't realize that your response here has no relevance to my quote.

You've got to deal with the facts of Acts 10 and 11, 1 Cor 1:17 and 1 Pet 3:21, all of which I've just recently explained to you.

112358 said:

Why would He need to say "and is baptized not" if someone doesn't believe in the first place? If you don't believe you sure aren't going to be baptized. And even if I grant you this very weak argument, you still have to deal with the entire book of Acts. The eunuch was not specifically told to be baptized, at least not that we are told, but HE is the one who said, "Here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?" Obviously it came up in the conversation. It was important enough that as soon as he saw water he wanted to stop RIGHT THEN. Same goes for the jailer.

And even if I grant you those two examples, the apostle Paul himself, the author of the majority of all the epistles, was told to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins. This is PAUL we are talking about folks, the guy who explained in several place what the baptism was all about. You honestly believe he was making reference to some other baptism that the one to which he submitted? Give me a break! The evidence is simply overwhelming.

So toss it all it the garbage if you so choose. I'll stick with what the Savior demanded in Mark 16:16

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So, despite the fact that I proved my point via many other scriptures, you’re still going to arrogantly and ignorantly based your entire belief about salvation off of one verse? You’re a lost cause. I fail to see the point of arguing with someone as authoritative on scripture as yourself, seeing as how everyone else is wrong, and you’re so correct. Be correct then, even unto your own foolish pride. But realize that the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized, yet he went to heaven because he BELIEVED. But I guess you’ll find some loophole around that one to prevent your ego from being struck.

112358 said:

No worries. Glad you have been enjoying yourself. I stand ready to accept OSAS with pride if you can do but one thing for me. Prove that the baptism found associated with the conversion of people to Christianity in the book of Acts, which is the only place in the New Testament where we find out how that was accomplished, and where we find the conversion of your good buddy Paul the apostle, was anything other than immersion in water. I can wait as long as necessary. Tickity-Tockity.

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Would those who believe and are baptized be eternally secure?

Those who believe with a living and saving, heart faith, their faith is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10, Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7) and also tenacious unto the enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22). They will never fall away from faith, for they are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5). The Holy Spirit seals faith into their heart that cannot be lost or taken away from them.

Those who have a mere mental assent to the tenets of the faith, or an emotional experience, who have a shallow, nominal, or lukewarm faith, are not sealed in this way. In fact, it is inevitable that they should fall away, because they are not of the good soil but are of the shallow or thorny ground.

Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2). Take away faith, there is no access to grace. And without grace, there is no salvation. So take away faith, there is no grace and thus, no salvation.

And yet eternal security is a reality in scripture. So I conclude that when we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, He places within us a righteous faith that will be in our hearts for ever. If someone falls away and loses faith, it is the evidence that they were not sealed by the Holy Spirit because their faith was not a living and saving, heart faith. I reject with my whole heart the idea that a man can fall away from faith and still be saved; for that is an unrighteous doctrine; and Jesus Christ, the author of the Bible, is the Righteous One (1 John 2:1).

And yes, mental assent to the doctrines of the faith is a requirement. However, mental assent to doctrine, alone, will not save the soul (see John 5:39-40, 1 Corinthians 8:1-3). And an emotional experience does not necessarily translate into a living and saving heart faith, either (Matthew 13:20, Mark 4:16, Luke 8:13); although one who is truly saved will very likely have an emotional response of falling head over heels in love with Jesus.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

So, despite the fact that I proved my point via many other scriptures, you’re still going to arrogantly and ignorantly based your entire belief about salvation off of one verse? You’re a lost cause. I fail to see the point of arguing with someone as authoritative on scripture as yourself, seeing as how everyone else is wrong, and you’re so correct. Be correct then, even unto your own foolish pride. But realize that the thief on the cross wasn’t baptized, yet he went to heaven because he BELIEVED. But I guess you’ll find some loophole around that one to prevent your ego from being struck.

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There is no loophole. The theif on the cross died under the Mosaic Law, not the New Covenant. Water baptism for the remission of sins was not part of Judaism.

I’m sorry I offended you. I mean that. But the Word itself is the authority, not me. I’m just saying what it says, nothing more nothing less.

justbyfaith said:

Would those who believe and are baptized be eternally secure?

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If they also repented and remain faithful. 100% eternally secure.

112358 said:

If they also repented and remain faithful. 100% eternally secure.

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Amen. A heart faith that is unto repentance, to me, guarantees that the person will remain faithful, because of the influence of Him who has sealed them unto the day of redemption.

112358 said:

I’m sorry I offended you. I mean that. But the Word itself is the authority, not me. I’m just saying what it says, nothing more nothing less.

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Scripture says faith alone for salvation, per the 24 verses I provided.

And even a cursory study of Acts 10 and 11 shows that Cornelius and household were baptized with the Holy Spirit way before Peter water baptized them.

And Paul, the GREATEST evangelist in history, made the point that God sent him to preach the gospel, NOT to baptize in 1 Cor 1:17.

And Peter made it clear that water baptism is a SYMBOL of the baptism (Holy Spirit) that does now save you in 1 Pet 3:21.

Your view has no ground to stand on.

justbyfaith said: ↑
Would those who believe and are baptized be eternally secure?

112358 said:

If they also repented and remain faithful. 100% eternally secure.

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Could you point to where these words occur in John 10:28 where Jesus said: "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (beievers) shall never perish."

Because I don't see any conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

justbyfaith said:

Amen. A heart faith that is unto repentance, to me, guarantees that the person will remain faithful, because of the influence of Him who has sealed them unto the day of redemption.

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Eph 1:13 and 14 doesn't say anhthing about any guarantee that the believer will remain faithful.

What IS in the passage is that those who have believed ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance of God's own possession for the day of redemption.

Another passage about eternal security.

justbyfaith said:

Amen. A heart faith that is unto repentance, to me, guarantees that the person will remain faithful, because of the influence of Him who has sealed them unto the day of redemption.

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Then you have removed the free moral agency of that person to make their own choices. The Spirit does not assume control of us when we receive His gift. People who have obeyed the Gospel renounce their faith all the time. Why will we all be judged in the end by the things we have done in the body, whether good or evil, if we are no longer able to do evil things? Because the blood of Christ covers them? Because the Spirit somehow prevents us from committing sin after we are saved? Heart faith that is unto repentance is just that, faith that repents as it happens to sin. Willful unrepentant sin is sin unforgiven. Forgiveness revoked, as Bob Ryan put it.

FreeGrace2 said:

justbyfaith said: ↑
Would those who believe and are baptized be eternally secure?

Could you point to where these words occur in John 10:28 where Jesus said: "I give them (believers) eternal life, and they (beievers) shall never perish."

Because I don't see any conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to never perish.

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He identified the subject of the personal pronouns “them” and “they” in the previous verses. The subject of the personal pronouns were His Sheep. And He identified who His sheep were. Those that hear Him and follow Him. For about the 55th time.

FreeGrace2 said:

And Peter made it clear that water baptism is a SYMBOL of the baptism (Holy Spirit) that does now save you in 1 Pet 3:21.

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Glad you keep bringing up 1 Peter. The very same Peter that preached the first Gospel sermon on the day of Pentecost and told the Jews to repent and be baptized right? The very same Peter who baptized Cornelius and his household in water? But in his epistle he refers to a different baptism than those in which he participated in Acts?

Ya’ll got a lot of different baptisms going on here, so it’s a good thing he told us which one he meant with the reference to Noah and family and what saved them..which was water. Furthermore, why even mention the removal of filth from the flesh if water were not involved? What other medium pray tell involves removal of filth from the flesh? But even though it’s water baptism the whole point really is obedience, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God. As in “he who believes and is baptized”

Almost forgot. The antitype is the fact that water saved the material, physical life of Noah and family, whereas water saves the spiritual life of the obedient believer. The “for the remission of sins” part of his command in Acts 2.

There’s pesky old Mark 16:16 still hanging around.

FreeGrace2 said:

The real joke here, although not actually funny, but more like pathetic, is that your cancer ridden friend hasn't been healed by yourself.

So, obviously, you don't even have what you seem to be demanding of others.

You've heard the phrase, "physician, heal thyself". Well, "hypocrite, heal thy friend".

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Dude. You are the ones claiming that the baptism in Mark 16 is Holy Spirit baptism, not me. Of course I can’t heal him. Only the apostles and their delegates could do that. That’s why you and Doug can’t heal him either. That’s the point I was making when facetiously inviting you to come try. I’ll try not to be so sarcastic in the future. My mistake.

112358 said:

My ungodly interpretation. Which of those sign gifts did you say you received when you were baptized with the Holy Spirit again? Like I said I forget. Was it raising people from the dead you said? Or was it healing my dying friend you mentioned? Or can you speak in foreign tongues spontaneously?

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What do those gifts have to do with whether or not water baptism saves us?
That was a rhetorical question, the answer is nothing.

112358 said:

And even if I grant you those two examples, the apostle Paul himself, the author of the majority of all the epistles, was told to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins. This is PAUL we are talking about folks, the guy who explained in several place what the baptism was all about. You honestly believe he was making reference to some other baptism that the one to which he submitted? Give me a break! The evidence is simply overwhelming.

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Acts 22:16 explained here.
Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

And if you could somehow prove that water baptism saves us, what would happen to a person who got saved and all they had was the Gospel of John?
The Gospel of John never mentions the need to be water baptized.

112358 said:

Ya’ll got a lot of different baptisms going on here, so it’s a good thing he told us which one he meant with the reference to Noah and family and what saved them..which was water.

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The water didn't save anybody.
The water killed everybody but 8 people.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is the word that is translated "by"
Strong's No.:G1223
Greek:διά
Transliteration:dia
Pronunciation:dee-ah'
Definition:A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;
through (in very wide applications local causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after always among at to avoid because of (that) briefly by for (cause) . . . fore from in by occasion of of by reason of for sake that thereby therefore X though through (-out) to wherefore with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.

Just as Noah and family were put into the ark (a type of Christ)
Baptism into the body of Christ is what saves us. This is an act of the Holy Spirit.

112358 said:

What other medium pray tell involves removal of filth from the flesh?

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God's Word.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by theword,
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

112358 said:

You are the ones claiming that the baptism in Mark 16 is Holy Spirit baptism, not me.

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Baptism into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13