Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Maybe you don't want to abide for ever. Maybe you just want a free ticket to heaven without any responsibility to take up your cross and follow the Lord. You want to live for ever without abiding in God's righteousness...well, there is a place for that kind of living in eternity...it's called hell. To @FreeGrace2.

Have you ever heard of the statement: No cross, no crown; no guts, no glory!

I think I'm going to stop there and resort to praying for @FreeGrace2, it is obvious to me that arguing the same case over and over again will get us nowhere. Only the Holy Spirit can show him the truth. So I'm done here.

@justbyfaith out.

FreeGrace2 said:

Then explain how "shall NEVER PERISH" can ever mean "might perish", or "may perish", or "can perish". That should be interesting.

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How many times must we explain this? You just refuse to accept it.
Those who shall never perish are His sheep. His sheep are those that HEAR and FOLLOW Him. If you are not HEARING and FOLLOWING Him then you are NOT His sheep. You are the sheep of some other shepherd. If you are not His sheep you are not counted among those that shall never perish. It's not about any doubt regarding eternal security. It's about WHO ARE HIS SHEEP?

112358 said:

Still waiting for proof that baptism in Acts is not immersion in water. I won't hold my breath (pun intended). There remains Mark 16:16. Tick-Tock.

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Are you honestly saying that the Holy Spirit came on unsaved people in Acts 10?
Also what would happen to someone who believed and was water baptized, are they eternally saved, or do they need to do more?

justbyfaith said:

You still have some studying to do: you have not cited all the verses that speak of eternal security, i.e. 1 John 2:17.

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1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
And here is the will of God.
John6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

justbyfaith said:

Maybe you don't want to abide for ever. Maybe you just want a free ticket to heaven without any responsibility to take up your cross and follow the Lord. You want to live for ever without abiding in God's righteousness...well, there is a place for that kind of living in eternity...it's called hell

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We just don't believe we can add to a finished work.
I see your belief as akin to a person having a ticket given to him to cross the ocean aboard a ship.
But he feels he must do something so he keeps jumping into the water and attempting to push the ship across the ocean. His efforts are completely pointless and do nothing to get to the other side.
He may as well stay inside the ship and rest.

112358 said:

How many times must we explain this? You just refuse to accept it.
Those who shall never perish are His sheep. His sheep are those that HEAR and FOLLOW Him. If you are not HEARING and FOLLOWING Him then you are NOT His sheep. You are the sheep of some other shepherd. If you are not His sheep you are not counted among those that shall never perish. It's not about any doubt regarding eternal security. It's about WHO ARE HIS SHEEP?

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Are you saying we won't find out if we are His sheep until we die and stand before Him?

Doug Melven said:

Are you saying we won't find out if we are His sheep until we die and stand before Him?

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I’m not saying anything that God’s Word is not saying. For the moment I’m still waiting for proof that the baptism associated with conversion in Acts was not water baptism. So is Mark 16:16.

Doug Melven said:

Are you honestly saying that the Holy Spirit came on unsaved people in Acts 10?

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That is precisely what I am honestly saying, or actually what Acts is saying. He was fulfilling the promise made to Abraham that through his seed all nations would be blessed. He was ushering in His New Covenant with all mankind, first with the Jews, and then with the Gentiles. And yet STILL they were commanded to be baptized in water. As was the apostle Paul. Are you under a different Gospel than the apostle Paul?

112358 said:

So is Mark 16:16.

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No, it's not and I will show you how below.

112358 said:

That is precisely what I am honestly saying, or actually what Acts is saying. He was fulfilling the promise made to Abraham that through his seed all nations would be blessed. He was ushering in His New Covenant with all mankind, first with the Jews, and then with the Gentiles. And yet STILL they were commanded to be baptized in water. As was the apostle Paul. Are you under a different Gospel than the apostle Paul?

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Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Jesus promised those who believed and were baptized would be saved. Then He said these signs would follow, speaking with new tongues was one of the signs.
In verse 46 they spoke with new tongues, therefore they had already believed and been baptized.
Then Peter in fulfillment of Matthew 28:19-20 baptized them in water.

Doug Melven said:

No, it's not and I will show you how below.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Jesus promised those who believed and were baptized would be saved. Then He said these signs would follow, speaking with new tongues was one of the signs.
In verse 46 they spoke with new tongues, therefore they had already believed and been baptized.
Then Peter in fulfillment of Matthew 28:19-20 baptized them in water.

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I see you sharpened up the old exacto knife with vs. 17, and just left vs. 18 out altogether. The signs do not reference the baptism in vs. 16. Otherwise you better get busy drinking poison, casting out demons, healing people, along with speaking in tongues. None of which of course you can do. But that is the baptism which accompanies salvation in vs. 16 is it? The baptism with which your salvation is associated, right? Sorry Doug. Still waiting on that proof that the baptism in Acts is not water baptism. Tickity-Tock.

112358 said:

Still waiting on that proof that the baptism in Acts is not water baptism. Tickity-Tock.

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No one is debating that the people were water baptized in Acts. They were water baptized.
But water baptism does not save.
Water baptism is only a picture of what happened when we got saved.
Being baptized into the body of Christ is the baptism that Jesus is referring to in Mark 16:16.

As for me not including verse 18, do you always include everything when you quote a Scripture. Please don't say you do, I would not want you to commit a sin by lying.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the story that Jesus is referring to.
Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Just as they were to look to the bronze serpent and be healed immediately, so when we look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our salvation we are saved.
This is when we are born-again, sealed, baptized into the body of Christ and given eternal life nevermore to perish.

Another nail in the coffin of OSNAS.

112358 said:

You do realize that you are making the case against OSAS here, or do you not? If I believe, which is the only requirement to receive salvation, but I then add works, I am then fallen from grace, damned, correct? I have moved from saved to damned. Thus is the "logic" of OSAS adherents.

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Sorry about the delay in my response.The weather here in Southern Ohio has been fantastic lately.....makes it hard to stay off the Harley
If one believes Paul’s Gospel thAt He promises will save you if merely believed ,you are in the Body of Christ.Those that insist on adding ANYTHING to the finished work of Christ on the cross,anybody that tramples the Blood Of Christ underfloot by denying it’s ability to cleanse us from ALL sin we’re never in the Body and were never saved to begin with.More than likely they had never had their hearts pierced by a conviction done by the Holy Spirit.Had That happened—- had they seen themselves as the lost, wretched sinners that they were, had they actually lived out their , “woe is me” moment that is the true repentance where one TURNS ( repents ) to God with “ fear and trembling” and hangs on for their life after Satan’s lie you have been living has finally been unmasked.That lie of self righteous that allowed you to think you are “ good enough”—- you had no need of a Gospel—- that stuff was for the “real” sinners at the penitentiary.If 100 people hear the Gospel,some will reject it ,some will believe it if they can add to it with their works because they really “ don’t” believe it.Those with contrite hearts that the Holy Spirit softened receive the Gospel gladly, they have seen what they truly are, and they KNOW they have NOTHING to offer but their faith.Those that try to embellish the Gospel are still living In the Fool’s Paradise.They were never saved.The saved never become the “accursed”.

Hi @Blood Bought 1953,

(I have stopped my dealings with @FreeGrace2 but would like to have a conversation with you):

I was just reading in Romans 4 and read that God imputes righteousness to us apart from works, and justifies the ungodly.

I gathered from this that my identity in Christ is that I am righteous in Him, no matter if my character or behaviour is ungodly behaviour.

Nevertheless, in giving us that new identity, I believe that God desires that we begin to think along the lines of "I am righteous in Christ," (and wants us to understand that this is the reality even if we blow it) so that we begin to live according to that identity and thinking: so that our lives begin to become more and more like the identity and position that God has given us in Christ, as we become transformed by the renewing of our minds.

What do you think?

justbyfaith said:

Hi @Blood Bought 1953,

(I have stopped my dealings with @FreeGrace2 but would like to have a conversation with you):

I was just reading in Romans 4 and read that God imputes righteousness to us apart from works, and justifies the ungodly.

I gathered from this that my identity in Christ is that I am righteous in Him, no matter if my character or behaviour is ungodly behaviour.

Nevertheless, in giving us that new identity, I believe that God desires that we begin to think along the lines of "I am righteous in Christ," (and wants us to understand that this is the reality even if we blow it) so that we begin to live according to that identity and thinking: so that our lives begin to become more and more like the identity and position that God has given us in Christ, as we become transformed by the renewing of our minds.

What do you think?

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I think you are my Brother in Christ.....many have a zeal for God, but without knowledge.....you are not that type.

“God will FINISH the work that HE STARTED” If we concentrate on our part— faith—- He will take care of the rest.The righteous shall LIVE by faith, not by trying to make ourselves worthy. We are MADE WORTHY by the Blood Of Jesus.I live a life of true sabbathing....I rest in His finished work. Faith plus nothing for salvation.God bless you,fine sir.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2256:

Let's just call it what Jesus said about it in John 10:28.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

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With conditions (e.g. Luke 12:45-46).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2261:

And he would have to prove from Scripture that the Holy Spirit can be removed from the believer.

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Note that the Holy Spirit doesn't have to be removed from the believer in order for the believer to ultimately lose his salvation.

It is sometimes asked: "But would not the believer losing his salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2265:

So even the believer cannot remove themselves from the hand of God.

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The believer can, because of free will (Hebrews 6:4-8).

OSAS ultimately negates free will.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2267:

Luke 8:13 says nothing about being "saved temporarily".

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Regarding the sower parable, the last three types of people all received God's Word and came into Christian faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

Matthew 13:23 and Mark 4:8 mean that the thirty, sixty, and hundred-fold fruit applies only to that fruit brought forth by the Christians on good ground.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2269:

Read John 6:40 in order to learn what God's will is.

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God's will includes obedience to Jesus (Luke 6:46), which is required for ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2269:

No verse in the Bible can refute any other verse.

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That's right.

But even when what one verse says appears plain, it can still be misinterpreted, such as by reading into it things that it does not say, things which would contradict what other verses say. To arrive at correct doctrine, a verse in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by) other, related verses elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13). Our doctrine must be based on what the entire Bible says (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4), and not just on what some unqualified verses say.

An example of an unqualified verse would be John 3:36. We cannot say that it means that all we have to believe is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. For John 3:36 must be qualified by, for example, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (and vice versa). We have to believe both that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day. So when John 3:36 is qualified, something is added to it, not subtracted from it. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 adds further belief requirements to John 3:36 (and vice versa). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 does not contradict the belief requirement of John 3:36 (or vice versa).

Another way that John 3:36 must be qualified is that we cannot say that it means that all that Christians have to do is believe for at least one moment during their lifetime. For John 3:36 must be qualified by other Bible verses which show that Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue to believe to the end (Hebrews 3:6,14, Colossians 1:23). And this is just one of the conditions which the Bible as a whole shows must be met for Christians to obtain ultimate salvation (e.g. Romans 2:6-8; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Also, compare how Jesus Christ qualified the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16). When Jesus said: "It is written again" (Matthew 4:7), He was referring to the principle of Isaiah 28:9-10. For in Matthew 4:7, the original Greek word (G3825) translated as "again" can mean "furthermore" (Strong's Greek Dictionary).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2291:

What you also fail to understand is that Christ paid for EVERY SIN.

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Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2299:

For your claim to be true, this is what Jesus would have had to say:

"I give them eternal life, and IF, or AS LONG AS, they endure to the end, they shall never perish."

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That's what Matthew 24:13 says, with regard to ultimate salvation.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2300:

That means every child of God WILL enter the kingdom.

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No (Matthew 8:11-12, Matthew 7:21).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2300:

And those who "deny Him" which means they didn't "endure" will be denied. Denied WHAT?

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Denied ultimate salvation, as in Matthew 7:23.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2315:

[Eph.] 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

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In Ephesians 4:30, the day of redemption, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, obedient Christians' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 do not require that all Christians will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption. For some of them will lose their salvation at the Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46). So their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

justbyfaith said in post #2273:

Jesus took the Old Testament law and brought it home to the heart; He made it internal rather than just external.

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Not its letter (Romans 7:6).

For 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 shows that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the apostle Paul begins the passage by saying that God has made "us" ministers "not of the letter" (2 Corinthians 3:6). By saying "us", Paul is including Jewish Christians, for Paul is a Jew (Acts 22:3). And by saying "ministers" (Greek: "diakonos", G1249), Paul means "servants" (cf. Romans 16:1). So in 2 Corinthians 3:6, Paul is saying the same thing as in Romans 7:6, where he says that "we" (that is, including Jewish Christians) have been "delivered" from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, so that "we" should serve "not in the oldness of the letter". Paul continues on in 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 to show that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, "for the letter killeth" (2 Corinthians 3:6).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

justbyfaith said in post #2273:

He has said that one jot or one tittle shall not pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away.

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Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

justbyfaith said in post #2273:

If you teach men to break one of the least of these commandments, you will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

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Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29).

justbyfaith said in post #2273:

The "may" in [Jer. 32] verse 39 is not to say that it is an iffy statement.

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It is, because of free will (Romans 11:20-22).

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justbyfaith said in post #2281:

Therefore they must not have been born again through a living and saving, heart faith; but were only temporary recipients of grace through a shallow, nominal, and/or lukewarm faith (Luke 8:13, Revelation 3:16) based on mental assent . . .

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Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9), and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, in order for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

Doug Melven said in post #2285:

Only faith in Jesus Christ can save us.

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Initially. But ultimate salvation requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

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Doug Melven said in post #2290:

[Mk. 16] 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

I don't see your pesky little word "work" in that verse.

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The work in Mark 16:16 is baptism.

For in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

Doug Melven said in post #2290:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize . . .

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In 1 Corinthians 1:17, the apostle Paul was not contradicting his own teaching of the necessity of baptism for ultimate salvation (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27). He simply meant that God did not want him to spend his apostolic time personally baptizing everyone who became a Christian through his preaching. For any other people in the Church could do that for him. For any Christian can baptize new Christians. Also, Paul did not want to personally baptize a lot of people, in order to avoid as much as possible any false charge that he baptized in his own name (1 Corinthians 1:14-15). The Bible does not say how many people Paul baptized, but it does show that he made sure that people got baptized, whether by himself or someone else, right away after their coming into faith in Jesus Christ through his preaching (Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:8, Acts 19:5).

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Doug Melven said in post #2301:

And if Jesus was referring to water baptism then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross, because he wasn't water baptized.

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The thief on the cross could have been baptized before Luke 23:42-43 happened, but then backslid and committed theft. Also, baptism is only a New Testament/New Covenant requirement for ultimate salvation (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-11, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:12). And the New Covenant was not put into legal effect until Jesus Christ died (Hebrews 9:16-17, Matthew 26:28). But Luke 23:42-43 happened before Jesus died; and so baptism was not yet a requirement for ultimate salvation. But now that Jesus' death is past, Christians have to obey all of His New Covenant commandments (John 14:21-24) if they want to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), including His commandment that every Christian get baptized (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38), and by immersion/"burial" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12; cf. 1 Corinthians 14:37). Also, a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), which includes unrepentant sins of omission (James 4:17), which would include refusing without repentance to get baptized, and by immersion.

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Doug Melven said in post #2332:

. . . when we look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our salvation we are saved.

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Hebrews 12:2a means that it is only because of Jesus Christ that Christians came to believe, and have the ability to continue to believe, to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus does not take away Christians' free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2335:

“God will FINISH the work that HE STARTED”

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Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2335:

Faith plus nothing for salvation.

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Faith plus works for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24).

Doug Melven said:

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the story that Jesus is referring to.
Numbers 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Just as they were to look to the bronze serpent and be healed immediately, so when we look to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our salvation we are saved.
This is when we are born-again, sealed, baptized into the body of Christ and given eternal life nevermore to perish.

Another nail in the coffin of OSNAS.

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No so fast Doug. Mark 16:16 is still right there. It will never go away, inconvenient as it may be. You have defeated OSAS through your knowledge that baptism in the book of Acts was immersion in water. Why might that be? Because Jesus Christ, who alone gives salvation, has defined for you to whom He gives that salvation. He gives it to those who believe and are baptized through immersion in water (Read: HEAR and FOLLOW with reference to John 10:28). Why do you suppose all those folks in Acts who were becoming Christians were practically running to get into the waters of baptism? Why did the eunuch, when Philip taught him the Gospel, say (paraphrasing) "Stop the chariot! Right here is water, what hinders me from being baptized? I need to get my behind down in that water ASAP!"

Take some time to look into how many times you will find the word "immediately" in the book of Acts when someone was taught the Gospel, right before they were baptized.

What this means is that, completely contrary to OSAS, there is something more required for salvation than belief alone. You think Paul the apostle, the author of the majority of the New Testament epistles, didn't believe in Jesus Christ when He confronted him and struck him blind? Why did Ananias later tell him (paraphrasing), "What are you waiting for Paul? Get up and get your behind in the waters of baptism and wash away your sins!"

So what of "saved by faith plus nothing"? What of "saved by grace alone"? They are empty, false, doctrines of men. Mark 16:16 is right there staring OSAS in the face.

OSAS demands belief and outright rejects baptism. Hypocrisy of the highest order. Heresy. Why don't you trust in what Jesus said? Why do you continue to reject Him?