Post taken from another thread

visionary · Jun 6, 2018

Elihoenai said:
Those that do away with the Law are Evil/Wicked compared to the Righteous by Law Pharisees. The Law is Righteous!

Philippians 3:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!

John 8:3-5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman having been taken in adultery, and having set her in the midst,

4 they say to him, `Teacher, this woman was taken in the very crime -- committing adultery,

5 and in the law, Moses did command us that such be stoned; thou, therefore, what dost thou say?'

The Pharisee do have one thing right, THE LAW is righteous, but where they veer off, is their understanding of the application.

Elihoenai · Jun 6, 2018

visionary said:
The Pharisee do have one thing right, THE LAW is righteous, but where they veer off, is their understanding of the application.

If the Pharisees application/practice of the Law is not correct, than how could the Pharisees be Righteous by a Law they fail to practice?

Open Heart · Jun 6, 2018

Dkh587 said:
The Pharisees were outwardly/self-righteous

To get into the kingdom, you have to be inwardly righteous, which exceeds outward righteousness.

Messiah constantly rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and outward appearance of righteousness.

Inward/true righteousness exceeds self/outward righteousness.

Generally, the Pharisees were not righteous at all

Matthew 23:27-28

I think the Pharisees were pretty good guys -- but because they were religious leaders, Yeshua held them to a higher standard. You can't teach the law and be violating it, even in small ways. Even in our churches and synagogues, we expect more from our pastors and rabbis. if you go to UMJC's standards of observance, you will find that there is a higher standard set for its rabbis. Where the Pharisees didn't practice all that they taught, Yeshua rightly called them hypocrites, with all the derision they deserved.

Elihoenai · Jun 6, 2018

For those in the Faith, the Law is applied/practiced equally and, thereby, without partiality.

Life of Brian - Stoning (HD) Complete scene

Elihoenai · Jun 7, 2018

Are these called Ultra-Orthodox, Righteous Pharisees? Do you consider those viewed as more moderate or secular, more Righteous compared to those called Ultra-Orthodox?

Ultra-Orthodox Jews picket girls' school

In a town on the outskirts of Jerusalem school runs have become the focal point for an ugly struggle over land and power.

...continued

Ultra-Orthodox Jews picket school

Beit Shemesh Ultra-Orthodox Jews Spat On 8 yr old girl For Dressing Immodestly

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

visionary said:
Elihoenai ...posted.... So not to derail another thread. I wanted to explore the "righteousness of Pharisees and scribes" further.

This is quite the statement from Yeshua. What does He mean? He is also be quoted as calling them "vipers". To me, vipers are not "righteous". So is the standard of the Pharisees and Scribes "low"? Is all of their requirements "righteous"? How do we balance this statement with all the other indications we find in scriptures about these "righteous" Scribes and Pharisees?

I think we see the see the same here...

*self righteousness....
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

*Righteousness of God, his faithfulness
De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
De 9:5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
De 9:6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

back in the land today for God's righteousness (covenant of circumcision) to the fathers?
Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
The "forbidden chapter" is not forbidden at all, it is in Jewish bibles. It is, however, understood and interpreted differently and seen as the nation of Israel rather than the Messiah. There are actually some very good linguistic reasons why that point of view makes sense. However, those reasons generally ignore the fact that several prophesies have dual interpretations.

To claim that the "scribes knew who Jesus was" is insulting. To say that they knew He was the Messiach and they knew He was the Son of God but they killed him anyways is to disregard that Jewish believers have been waiting for the Messiach since the prophesies were made. The fact is that Yeshua did not fulfill many of the definitive Messianic prophesies, we say that he will do so when he returns (and I agree), but that is a major reason that most of the Jews at the time and since did not accept him as the Messiach.

These were those that sat as Judges. They bribed to gain false testimony etc. Do you really think they were righteous Judges? The law says these which do such things are unjust judges. As well as those which give false witness are to receive the penalty they intended for the victim of false witness. Judas hung himself from a tree.

Mt 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
These were those that sat as Judges. They bribed to gain false testimony etc. Do you really think they were righteous Judges? The law says these which do such things are unjust judges. As well as those which give false witness are to receive the penalty they intended for the victim of false witness. Judas hung himself from a tree.

It is not fair to condemn all of the sages and scribes based on the actions of several corrupt ones. The scribes at that time, by and large, were not righteous. But they were not all corrupt either, for example Nicodemus is seen as righteous by most believers.

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
It is not fair to condemn all of the sages and scribes based on the actions of several corrupt ones. The scribes at that time, by and large, were not righteous. But they were not all corrupt either, for example Nicodemus is seen as righteous by most believers.

Did I not say "these were those that sat as judges"?

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
Did I not say "these were those that sat as judges"?

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post.

However, I still stand by my belief that accusing the Sanhedrin (can we stop saying "scribes", it just is not accurate) knowingly committed deicide is a far stretch, and frankly not in line with most MJ thought that I have read. 1st century Jews were just not looking for the Messiach to be G-d as well as a man. Yeshua not fulfilling some of the prophesies as well as their vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be/do/look like blinded them and is part of what led to His sacrifice - which was necessary. We can see the prophesies looking into scripture, just as 1st century worshipers could, and there were some sages that thought it possible, but it was not the prevailing thought among Jewish leaders at the time - or now.

No, they were not righteous people, but they did not knowingly kill the son of G-d, which is what the original reply was about.

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
My apologies, I misinterpreted your post.

However, I still stand by my belief that accusing the Sanhedrin (can we stop saying "scribes", it just is not accurate) knowingly committed deicide is a far stretch, and frankly not in line with most MJ thought that I have read. 1st century Jews were just not looking for the Messiach to be G-d as well as a man. Yeshua not fulfilling some of the prophesies as well as their vision of what the Messiah was supposed to be/do/look like blinded them and is part of what led to His sacrifice - which was necessary. We can see the prophesies looking into scripture, just as 1st century worshipers could, and there were some sages that thought it possible, but it was not the prevailing thought among Jewish leaders at the time - or now.

No, they were not righteous people, but they did not knowingly kill the son of G-d, which is what the original reply was about.

That generation were unjust judges...….Vipers, a crooked generation. It was their responsibility to judge a just judgment. They did not just reject Messiah. they rejected John which came before Messiah. These things are in the gospels????

Lu 20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
Lu 20:5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
That generation were unjust judges...….Vipers, a crooked generation. It was their responsibility to judge a just judgment. They did not just reject Messiah. they rejected John which came before Messiah. These things are in the gospels????

Lu 20:4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
Lu 20:5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?

Lu 7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

OK, I am not seeing where we are in disagreement. I agree, they were crooked and failed in their responsibility to judge justly. But failing in that still does not equate to them knowing Yeshua was God and still killing Him.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other, are you saying that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was God and decided to kill Him anyways?

AbbaLove · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
I agree, they were crooked and failed in their responsibility to judge justly. But failing in that still does not equate to them knowing Yeshua was God and still killing Him.

Can't find the post where ralliann has implied that the Sanhedrin of Yeshua's day believed that Mashiach would be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate? Is it your belief that some members of the Sanhedrin possibly held to the belief that their Mashiach would be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate?

tampasteve said:
Perhaps we misunderstand each other, are you saying that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was God and decided to kill Him anyways?

Not quite following your above comment ... did you mean to say ? ...

Perhaps we misunderstand each other, are you saying that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was their Mashiach and decided to kill Him anyways?

To your knowledge does there exist today any members/sect of Rabbinic Judaism that are coming around to finally believe their Mashiach will be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate?

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
OK, I am not seeing where we are in disagreement. I agree, they were crooked and failed in their responsibility to judge justly. But failing in that still does not equate to them knowing Yeshua was God and still killing Him.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other, are you saying that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was God and decided to kill Him anyways?

I am not seeing the importance of your post. Blood libel for men are not enough?

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

AbbaLove said:
Can't find the post where ralliann has implied that the Sanhedrin of Yeshua's day believed that Mashiach would be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate?

Ralliann did not specifically, that is why I asked in the last post; however, it was assumed as Ralliann's post was in reply to my post that was rebuking the idea that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was G-d committed Deicide knowingly.

Is it your belief that some members of the Sanhedrin possibly held to the belief that their Mashiach would be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate?

Some members of that Sanhedrin might have, we do not know if they did or not as there is no evidence that they did. However, I do believe some sages have thought that a possibility, but they would have been an extreme minority.

Not quite following your above comment ... did you mean to say ? ...

To your knowledge does there exist today any members/sect of Rabbinic Judaism that are coming around to finally believe their Mashiach will be the physical manifestation of YHVH Incarnate?

No, I did not mean that. I meant it as said....but I think there is a misunderstanding afoot. I am familiar with a Rabbi that thinks that it is possible....but that is one person, and that is not enough to think there is any sort of trend. Most that come to that conclusion have moved into MJ as if they believe it is possible then they can start to believe that Yeshua was that person.

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
I am not seeing the importance of your post. Blood libel for men are not enough?

This confuses me more. What does the idea that Jews took Christians and Eucharistic hosts for secret blood rituals have to do with the discussion at hand?

Let me start again.

My initial post (that you quoted) was rebuking that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was G-d and knowingly committed Deicide as well as the idea that Isaiah 53 is purposefully hidden from Jewish people.
You replied that the Judges of the Sanhedrin were not righteous.
I misunderstood the post and corrected myself and agreed with you that they were not righteous in the next post.
I asked if you thought that the Sanhedrin committed deicide, and that took us here.

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
This confuses me more. What does the idea that Jews took Christians and Eucharistic hosts for secret blood rituals have to do with the discussion at hand?

What are you talking about??? the above is nothing I said.

Jer 26:15 But know ye for certain, that if ye put me to death, ye shall surely bring innocent blood upon yourselves, and upon this city, and upon the inhabitants thereof: for of a truth the LORD hath sent me unto you to speak all these words in your ears.
Joe 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
Jon 1:14 Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man’s life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
Mt 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

tampasteve said:
Let me start again.

My initial post (that you quoted) was rebuking that the Sanhedrin knew Yeshua was G-d and knowingly committed Deicide as well as the idea that Isaiah 53 is purposefully hidden from Jewish people.

You replied that the Judges of the Sanhedrin were not righteous.

I misunderstood the post and corrected myself and agreed with you that they were not righteous in the next post.

I asked if you thought that the Sanhedrin committed deicide, and that took us here.

Let me answer this way...…..
Mt 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
Blood libel for men are not enough?

ralliann said:
What are you talking about??? the above is nothing I said.

blood li·bel
noun

an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century.

Apparently you are using the term in a different way than is standard.

That said, I think we should drop this conversation....I just cannot understand your posts, that is on me so I apologize.

ralliann · Jun 12, 2018

tampasteve said:
blood li·bel
noun

an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century.

Apparently you are using the term in a different way than is standard.

That said, I think we should drop this conversation....I just cannot understand your posts, that is on me.

Blood libel is this concerns guilt of shedding innocent blood. Murder...… This is the biblical understanding...…

Ge 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Concern of blood libel in Josephs death......So they sold him into slavery instead...
Ge 42:22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it.
8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel’s charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

Wanted the Apostles to quite speaking about Christ due to blood libel...….
Ac 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.

tampasteve · Jun 12, 2018

ralliann said:
Blood libel is this concerns guilt of shedding innocent blood. Murder...…
Ge 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Ge 42:22 And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.

De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it.
8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel’s charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
6 And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
7 And they shall answer and say, Our hands have not shed this blood, neither have our eyes seen it.
8 Be merciful, O LORD, unto thy people Israel, whom thou hast redeemed, and lay not innocent blood unto thy people of Israel’s charge. And the blood shall be forgiven them.
9 So shalt thou put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD.

Ac 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.

Thank you for the clarification, out of context I hope you can understand my confusion. I had not heard the term used that way before. As I said though, I am dropping from this particular conversation. I sincerely hope you have a wonderful evening.

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