GOD'S LAW AND JUDGEMENT TIME - ARE YOU READY?

tall73

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This links also with Daniel 7:10 and Daniel 7:26-27 which says...

[10], A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

You just summarized the entire type of the Day of Atonement, and there were not books in them.

The books [plural] of God's judgment are shown through the scriptures to refer

1. The book of life and
2 the book of remembrance (deeds and acts)

Rev. 20.
and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.

The plural does not tell us one way or the other, because the books opened first are plural by themselves. Then another books is opened, the book of life.

Daniel 7 makes no mention of a book of life. But then it doesn't need to because it doesn't mention anything about a judgment on individuals to start with. The judgment is on the fourth beast, the little horn, and the three other beasts are allowed to live.

Here is what a judgment on individuals looks like:

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before ]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


You see how it mentions not only the book of life, but that the dead will be judged? None of that is said in Daniel 7.

But there is a larger issue yet. You keep pointing to Daniel 7 and saying "see, Day of Atonement". And I keep asking where? And you keep saying "there are books!" But you just went through the Day of Atonement type, and what the high priest did in the sanctuary. The type did not have the high priest going into the sanctuary and doing anything with books, or investigation. He went into God's presence with the sacrificial blood for cleansing.

The Adventists invented the notion of the examining of every case while the priest is in the sanctuary during the DOA, because they had to explain the delay. The type of the DOA does not include a protracted stay by the high priest, or an investigation by the high priest. It portrays blood application in God's presence.

There is a reason that the investigative judgment is unique to Seventh-day Adventists. They are the only ones who need to justify the delay since 1844, because they were the only ones convinced that Millers false message of Jesus coming in 1843 was of God.


 
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tall73

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I would like therefore, to see how you personally understand what was given, and to be able to explain your position. So far, I have not seen you do that, on anything really. Presently, I see you as cheerleader with puffs without substance.

Bugkiller has discussed with Adventists for years before you arrived on the forum. He has no need to prove anything to you, and no one is obligated to post here. Participation is voluntary.
 
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tall73

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Absoluetly not! What you are not considering within the scriptures is that not only is Christ our great high priest of a NEW Priesthood who is our sinless sacrifice once and for all sin, but he is also a KING with his own throne who is God. With these thoughts in mind let's examine the scruptures.
I do in fact agree that Jesus is King. And I agree His sitting on the throne is because of that.

And in chapter 10 the sitting is contrasted with the priest's standing to offer.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;



He sat down at the right hand, which is reigning as King. But He also sat down after He offered one sacrifice for sins forever. The priest stands ministering...again and again. But He offered once. It is in contrast to the priest standing.
 
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tall73

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Hebrews 9:23-25 is not talking about the cleansing of the Sanctuary

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

It most certainly is.
 
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tall73

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Now let's have a look at your application of Hebrews 9:24-25.

You know what you didn't do in that whole long post about Hebrews 9:24-25?

You didn't actually once quote the text, or talk about its particulars.

So I will ask again. Please explain your view of Hebrews 9:23-25. Go through the text, and explain it.

Start with 23, because it definitely mentions the cleansing of the heavenly things.
 
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The7thColporteur

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Hello tall,

I see you are trying to use Hebrews 9:23-25 to say that the day of atonement or cleansing of the sanctuary has already taken place? You seem to be moving on to here but you have not addressed the multitude of other questions that we have been discussing ealier that do not agree with your theory here....
I see you noticed tall's diversionary tactics also. Every time a scripture is addressed in specificity, he moves to another passage and asks us to explain it, and when we do, he moves to another, just like the WatchTowerites do on the deity of Jesus. They continually circle, and at each point, when it is addressed, they move to another, without agreeing to anything, landing eventually where they started, and that which was addressed already, as if it had not been.
 
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The7thColporteur

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Because it makes no sense in the light of what has been presented in this thread as evidence for the OP, on the points at issue.

I would like therefore, to see how you personally understand what was given, and to be able to explain your position. So far, I have not seen you do that, on anything really. Presently, I see you as cheerleader with puffs without substance.

Here is your opportunity to demonstrate otherwise in a clear way.
At some point we might see BugKiller's actual position explained by themself, but until then, it seems all we are going to get is "Yep".
 
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tall73

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I see you noticed tall's diversionary tactics also. Every time a scripture is addressed in specificity, he moves to another passage and asks us to explain it, and when we do, he moves to another, just like the WatchTowerites do on the deity of Jesus. They continually circle, and at each point, when it is addressed, they move to another, without agreeing to anything, landing eventually where they started, and that which was addressed already, as if it had not been.

I actually did respond to his various posts. But if I do not immediately agree with his view he alleges me ignoring it.

For instance, he cites Daniel 8 for the start of the judgment. Well first of all, according to Adventist Daniel 8 doesn't even tell you the start date. But more than that, the context is all about the little horn's activities and not the Day of Atonement.

So then when I post a text like Hebrews 9:23, he says it can't be about the cleansing of the sanctuary because of Daniel 8. But Daniel 8 is clearly about the little horn, and Hebrews 9:23 is clearly about the cleansing of the heavenly things in fulfillment of the type, rather than from outside activity.

Folks can read the replies and know I am replying. So I will not worry about that.

And they can read the reply that he gave to the Hebrews 9:23-25 and know that he did not even quote or explain the text at all.

And they can read and realize Adventists have changed the type. The type has the high priest offering blood in the sanctuary, not going through books and judging.

Those reading so far will realize we have spent most of the time on texts Adventists feel are there strong points, such as Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc. and looking at how they ignore the context.

But if you want to discuss cleansing the sanctuary you do have to address the NT passage that explains it. So I am now asking him to do so.
 
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tall73

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At some point we might see BugKiller's actual position explained by themself, but until then, it seems all we are going to get is "Yep".

Bugkiller doesn't have to post if he doesn't want to.

Dig up the archives and maybe you will find his views.
 
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bugkiller

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I think we both agree He does not need to offer for Himself, being sinless.



True. And when do you propose God selected Christ to be the sin offering? Do you think that will be in 1844? It cannot be, He was already offered.

And do you think God did not know then who would be the goat for Azazel in the first century?

Do you think God cast lots, to decide that Jesus would die for your sins, rather than Satan?

Are you saying Satan was a sinless being, qualified to be a sin offering?

Please clarify your point in bolding selected.




This is a summary of the process. The live goat is not released or sins transferred until after the work in the sanctuary is complete, as the rest of the chapter outlines, and as is referenced in the "shall" of Lev. 16:10.


And when was Jesus selected? Before the foundation of the world.

I Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.


Interesting that you mention SDA and satan as a scapegoat taking on our sin. Been a long time since I heard that mentioned. You have some great posts.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Bugkiller doesn't have to post if he doesn't want to.

Dig up the archives and maybe you will find his views.
One of the things I no longer do is get into an involved discussion about the IJ, especially since I and others have posted Jn 5:24. There is no investigation of the Christian. We have already passed and have eternal life.

bugkiller
 
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tall73

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Interesting that you mention SDA and satan as a scapegoat taking on our sin. Been a long time since I heard that mentioned. You have some great posts.

bugkiller

I can see several possibilities for the goat for azazel, but they all seem to have aspects I cannot reconcile. I can see how aspects of it could fit Satan, but others less so.

I spelled out my current view, but then LGW didn't even apparently read it because he made a long response to what he thought I would say instead.

In any case, the real issue is that Ellen White says the IJ is the fulfillment of the cleansing in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

But the high priest didn't go through books or judge while in the sanctuary, but instead cleansed with blood.

And the Scapegoat portion doesn't happen until he leaves the sanctuary, so that would not have happened yet anyway. The question is what was the type? The type was application of blood in God's presence.

And so as long as Adventists say the type is books they look for every passage talking about books. But that wasn't the type to start with.
 
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tall73

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One of the things I no longer do is get into an involved discussion about the IJ, especially since I and others have posted Jn 5:24. There is no investigation of the Christian. We have already passed and have eternal life.

bugkiller

We agree that we pass from death to life and will not be condemned. But numerous texts affirm the Christian will appear before the judgment seat.

Of course, appearing, giving an account, bowing the knee, etc. is not describing the Adventist IJ, because we wouldn't even know it was going on.
 
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bugkiller

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Folks will also remember after we looked at the Greek text of Rev. 14 you went on an extended discourse on how you dislike interlinears, etc.

And folks will remember how you proposed that the 10


I can see several possibilities for the goat for azazel, but they all seem to have aspects I cannot reconcile. I can see how aspects of it could fit Satan, but others less so.

I spelled out my current view, but then LGW didn't even apparently read it because he made a long response to what he thought I would say instead.

In any case, the real issue is that Ellen White says the IJ is the fulfillment of the cleansing in the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

But the high priest didn't go through books or judge while in the sanctuary, but instead cleansed with blood.

And the Scapegoat portion doesn't happen until he leaves the sanctuary, so that would not have happened yet anyway. The question is what was the type? The type was application of blood in God's presence.

And so as long as Adventists say the type is books they look for every passage talking about books. But that wasn't the type to start with.
What is the purpose of the IJ according to SDA folks? Is it not to see who qualifies for eternal life? There are several passages that explain the process (if you will) about how to acquire eternal life (salvation/redemption). None of those things are covered by the law. Salvation/redemption is promised, but not actualized anywhere in the OT.

The Christian appeared at the judgment upon acquiring salvation/redemption. Otherwise we could not have passed and acquired eternal life.

bugkiller
 
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tall73

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What is the purpose of the IJ according to SDA folks? Is it not to see who qualifies for eternal life?

Well yes, but of course they see it as for the onlooking angels, etc. to give evidence that God is just in His judgments.

We would all need to go to the soteriology forum to discuss it I suppose, but I do believe that folks can turn away from Christ. There are texts that speak of it. So there is an element where we must endure to the end.

And there are people who claim to follow God but do not . But God doesn't need a judgment to know who they are. He knows His own. And essentially they agree with that.

However, I see no need for an investigative judgment when we all appear before Him anyway and confess.

The real issue is not even whether God judges ahead of time. Certainly if He wants to I won't object! I just don't see the texts they cite talking about it.

However, they must read the DOA type into Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc. for it to explain 1844. That is the issue. They must explain why something happened in 1844, and the IJ is how they explain the delay.

So they must downplay texts that talk about cleansing in Hebrews. And they must play up the idea that the DOA is about books, though of course it is not.

When your church starts from a failed prophecy, and everything since is justifying it, you wind up with something like the IJ.
 
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bugkiller

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Well yes, but of course they see it as for the onlooking angels, etc. to give evidence that God is just in His judgments.

We would all need to go to the soteriology forum to discuss it I suppose, but I do believe that folks can turn away from Christ. There are texts that speak of it. So there is an element where we must endure to the end.

And there are people who claim to follow God but do not . But God doesn't need a judgment to know who they are. He knows His own. And essentially they agree with that.

However, I see no need for an investigative judgment when we all appear before Him anyway and confess.

The real issue is not even whether God judges ahead of time. Certainly if He wants to I won't object! I just don't see the texts they cite talking about it.

However, they must read the DOA type into Daniel 7, Daniel 8, etc. for it to explain 1844. That is the issue. They must explain why something happened in 1844, and the IJ is how they explain the delay.

So they must downplay texts that talk about cleansing in Hebrews. And they must play up the idea that the DOA is about books, though of course it is not.

When your church starts from a failed prophecy, and everything since is justifying it, you wind up with something like the IJ.
Oh my could I get into trouble here. I understand what you say and agree to some degree with your post.

bugkiller
 
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tall73

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Oh my could I get into trouble here. I understand what you say and agree to some degree with your post.

bugkiller

Yes, I kind of figured you would only agree with part. A lot of the folks who wind up discussing with Adventists probably trend more toward the once saved always saved side of the fence than I do.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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We agree that we pass from death to life and will not be condemned.

Hello tall and all,

Goodness, you have been busy by the looks of things with a lot of posting. Nice to see some discussion going on. Although from what I can see, it is only a lot of repetition of what has already been addressed through the scriptures already.

Happy to look at them again if you like.

None pass from death to life if they continue in a life of known unrepentant sin and turn away from God's Word (Hebrews 10:26-27; Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 John 2:3-4).

................

SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

................

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12).

If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has led many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
 
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