Post taken from another thread

The Pharisees were outwardly/self-righteous

To get into the kingdom, you have to be inwardly righteous, which exceeds outward righteousness.

Messiah constantly rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and outward appearance of righteousness.

Inward/true righteousness exceeds self/outward righteousness.

Generally, the Pharisees were not righteous at all

Matthew 23:27-28

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

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visionary said:

Elihoenai ...posted.... So not to derail another thread. I wanted to explore the "righteousness of Pharisees and scribes" further.

This is quite the statement from Yeshua. What does He mean? He is also be quoted as calling them "vipers". To me, vipers are not "righteous". So is the standard of the Pharisees and Scribes "low"? Is all of their requirements "righteous"? How do we balance this statement with all the other indications we find in scriptures about these "righteous" Scribes and Pharisees?

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"Righteous Judgment" is helping and feeding the poor. Pharisees did not embrace this form of righteousness.

Perhaps a clue to the Pharisaic problem is found in Yeshua telling people to 'do what they say and not what they do'.

Matthew 5:20?

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visionary said:

Elihoenai ...posted.... So not to derail another thread. I wanted to explore the "righteousness of Pharisees and scribes" further.

This is quite the statement from Yeshua. What does He mean? He is also be quoted as calling them "vipers". To me, vipers are not "righteous". So is the standard of the Pharisees and Scribes "low"? Is all of their requirements "righteous"? How do we balance this statement with all the other indications we find in scriptures about these "righteous" Scribes and Pharisees?

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Scribes knew who Jesus was but didn't want him to rule over them just like in Scriptures where Jews wanted king to rule over tham rather than YHWH ruling over them . That's why Jesus called them hypocrites . Some untill this day are saying for example that Isaiah 53 is "forbidden chapter" being hypocrite about that because this chapter does not fit into thier doctrines .

The word "New" was not used. We are speaking for the original teaching of Yeshua and not for Messianics.

These are the original words:

Gentiles must be Circumcised! Circumcision is an absolute requirement of the faith. The Pharisees and Scribes are Righteous!

Messianics who preach circumcision

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It's a great mystery that Yeshua continually railed and rebuked the Pharisees and Scribes for their wickedness and also called them Righteous.

Dkh587 said:

The Pharisees were outwardly/self-righteous

To get into the kingdom, you have to be inwardly righteous, which exceeds outward righteousness.

Messiah constantly rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy and outward appearance of righteousness.

Inward/true righteousness exceeds self/outward righteousness.

Generally, the Pharisees were not righteous at all

Matthew 23:27-28

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But the Pharisees could be righteous according to the Law, just like Paul said he was 'blameless' -
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But God looks on peoples hearts.

tampasteve said:

The "forbidden chapter" is not forbidden at all, it is in Jewish bibles. It is, however, understood and interpreted differently and seen as the nation of Israel rather than the Messiah. There are actually some very good linguistic reasons why that point of view makes sense. However, those reasons generally ignore the fact that several prophesies have dual interpretations.

To claim that the "scribes knew who Jesus was" is insulting. To say that they knew He was the Messiach and they knew He was the Son of God but they killed him anyways is to disregard that Jewish believers have been waiting for the Messiach since the prophesies were made. The fact is that Yeshua did not fulfill many of the definitive Messianic prophesies, we say that he will do so when he returns (and I agree), but that is a major reason that most of the Jews at the time and since did not accept him as the Messiach.

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Luke 12
If Scribes did not know then Jesus could not call them hypocrites . He actually accused them of willfully ignoring Scriptures and doing thier things .

54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

They had Bethlehem Star , all Scriptures with prophecy ( 300+ ) one to such point that it predicted 4 days before Christ crucifixion that he will be problaimed Messiah riding on a donkey . They even Proclaimed him Messiah and still 4 days later crucified him...

For me it's hypocrisy .
I'm not here to split hairs just saying what i think .
Also Levites do not represent whole Israel , there were many Jews who repented and believed that Yeshua was Messiah , but leaders rejected him and it was thier offense ( Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:39) .

Hypocrisy definition, a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

So they killed him "doing the law " but mocking him on Cross saying " if you are Messiah save yourself (Luke 23:37)" , if they knew Scriptures which was thier job to do as that tribe , then they would know that Messiah must suffer first (Luke 24:26).


Also about that forbidden chapter , there is very cool video of preaching Christ by Jew to Jews worth watching .

tampasteve said:

The "forbidden chapter" is not forbidden at all, it is in Jewish bibles. It is, however, understood and interpreted differently and seen as the nation of Israel rather than the Messiah. There are actually some very good linguistic reasons why that point of view makes sense. However, those reasons generally ignore the fact that several prophesies have dual interpretations.

To claim that the "scribes knew who Jesus was" is insulting. To say that they knew He was the Messiach and they knew He was the Son of God but they killed him anyways is to disregard that Jewish believers have been waiting for the Messiach since the prophesies were made. The fact is that Yeshua did not fulfill many of the definitive Messianic prophesies, we say that he will do so when he returns (and I agree), but that is a major reason that most of the Jews at the time and since did not accept him as the Messiach.

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It is not true that Jesus did not fulfill many “definitive” prophecies, because the Messiah was prophecied to come to us on earth twice. He has fulfilled the suffering Messiah role, which is a definitive Messianic prophecy.

Let’s not forget that the Messiah was prophecied to be raised from the dead.

Many of the Yahudim could not accept Messiah because God gave many of them a spirit of slumber, blindness and deafness. Same for today. Many of the Israelites/Yahudim are spiritually blind & deaf, and can not see and hear. Paul writes about this in Romans.

And yes, the scribes knew who Jesus was. He told them and SHOWED them over and over. They were not his sheep, and God was not their father. They were children of the devil, therefore they were the enemies of Jesus.

tampasteve said:

Falling short of abiding by the Law as well as being hypocrites by telling others to do something and then not doing it themselves is a far leap from knowing Jesus was the Messiach and Son of God and then willfully killing him. Yes, there were Jews that believed - and there still are. That is one of the reasons that Messianic Judaism exists today.


That was the Roman soldiers mocking him in Luke, not the scribes or other leaders.
Luke 23:36 The soldiers also mocked him, coming up .....



Yes, I have seen that video before and find they cherry pick the verses and readings that they choose to highlight as well as who they speak with. Most Christians are also not versed in the scriptures, the same goes for any religion really.

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Quoted wrong verse perhaps


35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.



These rulers mentioned here are not from Rome , there was one ruler and it was Cesar.
These people are rulers over people who are watching it , and they are not soldiers because of next verse word "also" indicating these are different groups of people .

These rulers were Priests , at least how I understand it .

tampasteve said:

Overall I agree. However, we take it for granted now that the Messiach was to come twice - a prophesy I can see and believe. But in the 1st century that was not a agreed upon belief. Looking back into scripture we can see it is clear, but looking from their time frame it is not as clear. It is true that he did not fulfill definitive prophesies, and that is OK, He will fulfill them on His return and both Christians and Jews will recognize His kingship and fulfillment of all of the messianic prophesies.



Yes, both the "rulers" and the Romans were mocking Yeshua. But I still do not see how that implies they "knew he was God". The son of God is stated in the verse, but it was a term applied to others around the same time and before including, angels, King David, the Israelite nation, and (IIRC) Honi the Cricle Drawer.

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Messiah has already come twice - the second time being between telling Mary she must not hold on to him because he had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven, and Thomas being able to put his fingers in the holes in his hands. Either he was wrong in what he said to Mary, or he was right and went to the Father, returning so that he could walk through the door / wall, where the disciples were.

Of course, there is also the time he was seen by hundreds of people, and the two on the road to Emmaus - could no one touch him during that time?

It does not say in scripture that he will come twice, it only says he will return the same way he left.

Vis started this thread "So not to derail another thread" and no sooner than post #5 does it seem that this thread is going off topic. Then Heber Book List interjects his post that seems to be off topic.

The one thing we all can agree on (hopefully) is that Yeshua is only seen in the clouds twice by "righteous" followers. Once when He is ascending and once when he is descending to meet His "righteous" followers in the air.

In an attempt to get back on track ... What are the qualifications of those "righteous" followers that surpasses the righteousness of the Pharisees when Yeshua comes to take His own out of the world before the Tribulation Period.

tampasteve said:

Good points, thank you for pointing them out. I merely meant it as the "suffering messiah" and "kingly triumphant messiah" as the two messiahs often mentioned. It was poorly stated on my side.

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No problem Most people think he is limited to just two appearances on earth, and I was setting out the scripture that causes a difficulty with a 2 visit view

chunkofcoal said:

But the Pharisees could be righteous according to the Law, just like Paul said he was 'blameless' -
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

But God looks on peoples hearts.

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Those that do away with the Law are Evil/Wicked compared to the Righteous by Law Pharisees. The Law is Righteous!


Philippians 3:5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

5 circumcision on the eighth day! of the race of Israel! of the tribe of Benjamin! a Hebrew of Hebrews! according to law a Pharisee!


John 8:3-5 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman having been taken in adultery, and having set her in the midst,

4 they say to him, `Teacher, this woman was taken in the very crime -- committing adultery,

5 and in the law, Moses did command us that such be stoned; thou, therefore, what dost thou say?'