Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Those that add to the simple Gospel of Paul found in 1cor:151-4 pervert the Gospel by adding works and/or repentance to it.If you add to the Gospe you are fallen from grace, Christ is of no benefit to you, you are “accursed” .That means damned.TheBible clearly states these truths and also makes clear that Paul’s Gospel is what you will be judged by on Judgement Day.Pity those souls that have to explain to Jesus that what He thought was adequate to save just didn’t get the job done.

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A person is accursed or damned for repenting of their sins? Your understanding of the Bible is not only slightly off. The Bible teaches us that we enter into salvation through repentance and faith; and that this is unto doing good works as the result of and as the evidence of salvation.

justbyfaith said:

I hope you don't think that your patience is there in the power of your own strength. Because God will not give you patience if that patience would be used to reject the truth.

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No, my patience is given to me from God. Galatians 5:23, Romans 5:3-5, James 1:2-3

justbyfaith said:

Now are you saying that we cannot learn doctrine from parables?

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No, I am not saying that. But when Jesus gave a lesson through a parable we need to stick to the lesson.
And the lesson in Matthew 18:21-45 is about the effects of unforgiveness and the ensuing torture that a person will undergo..

justbyfaith said:

And the other thing was that a person who was a recipient of the grace of God can fall from grace. And since grace is the reason for our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9),

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Grace through faith is how we were born-again. That is a done deal and cannot be reversed.
Grace through faith is how we receive anything from God.

Doug Melven said:

That is completely off topic in this thread.
We are only talking about those who have actually received eternal life.
@Bible2+ , @112358 , These guys think we must do good works otherwise we will lose the eternal life God gave us.
@BobRyan is a Seventh Day Adventist who believes we must keep the 10 Commandments or lose eternal life.

Neither belief is Scriptural, for God justifies the one who does not work.
Neither believe that God won't take away His Covenant of Peace.
And nobody from your side is rebuking them for these unscriptural beliefs.
Though I have noticed you have started correcting them on some points.

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It is perfectly within the realm of the topic. And if someone does not come from the same faith system as me, I do not discount everything they have to say because of it. I weigh everything carefully and interpret what they say according to what I have been taught in a valid faith system, and add understanding to my understanding from what they might have to say, especially if what they say is in any way backed up by scripture. I am not threatened by the sharpening of my edges through a different point of view; I consider that I can learn even from people who are caught up in the doctrines of a cult. See Philippians 2:3. I think you will find that if you respect the views of other people, and consider what they are saying, and weigh them in the balance of what you know to be the truth, you will be able to reach them more easily, because you will be able to talk to them from the perspective of what they believe because you have wisely considered what they believe. Proverbs 19:27 (kjv) being the exception to this. It takes discernment and the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit to know when to turn away and stop listening. See also Romans 16:17.

PS It was once prophesied over me that my spiritual gift is word of wisdom, so that is the gift I am operating in when I tell you these things.

PSS I have not addressed some of their unscriptural points because I have been focused on dealing with another subject, and did not want to overextend myself so that I would be overwhelmed with having to deal with many people on many subjects to the point that I would have too much on my plate to deal with.

Doug Melven said:

No, my patience is given to me from God. Galatians 5:23, Romans 5:3-5, James 1:2-3

No, I am not saying that. But when Jesus gave a lesson through a parable we need to stick to the lesson.
And the lesson in Matthew 18:21-45 is about the effects of unforgiveness and the ensuing torture that a person will undergo..


Grace through faith is how we were born-again. That is a done deal and cannot be reversed.
Grace through faith is how we receive anything from God.

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A person can be saved temporarily by grace through faith and fall away later (Luke 8:13). When they fall away from faith, they are no longer saved, because their faith was nominal, shallow, or lukewarm, and not a living and saving faith, in the sense of making them one of God's elect (who from the perspective of eternity God looks down and sees that they will endure unto the end in righteousness). So the salvation that they have is only a perceived salvation and not real in the sense of being able to bring them into heaven. It is a situation wherein they receive all the benefits of salvation until they fall away because of temptation.

Doug Melven said:

And the lesson in Matthew 18:21-35 is about the effects of unforgiveness and the ensuing torture that a person will undergo..

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When the unforgiving servant was forgiven of his debt, that forgiveness meant that he no longer had to pay the debt that he owed to the Master. But when he didn't forgive his brother of that minor debt, he was given over to the tormentors until he could pay his entire debt: this means he was no longer forgiven in that he now has to pay the entire debt in full.

justbyfaith said:

I hope you don't think that your patience is there in the power of your own strength. Because God will not give you patience if that patience would be used to reject the truth.

Now are you saying that we cannot learn doctrine from parables? Because I believe that Jesus teaches doctrine in the parables. It is clear from the parable of the unforgiving servant that the servant was forgiven of a very great debt, for a season, and then because he did not forgive his brother of a very small debt, he was no longer forgiven. I consider that the forgiveness of sins is the reason why we can go to heaven; if we are not forgiven then we must pay the just penalty for our sins which is due; and I most certainly believe that without the forgiveness of God through the blood of Jesus Christ every person who is not forgiven thus will be cast into the lake of fire.

And the other thing was that a person who was a recipient of the grace of God can fall from grace. And since grace is the reason for our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9), if someone is fallen from grace, they are no longer saved. Therefore they must not have been born again through a living and saving, heart faith; but were only temporary recipients of grace through a shallow, nominal, and/or lukewarm faith (Luke 8:13, Revelation 3:16) based on mental assent or an emotional experience. And the same would be true of the person who does not obey the commandment of God to forgive our brothers and sisters as God has forgiven us.

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Go to Gal5:4....... one “falls from grace “by adding works to the simple Gospel of Paul given to him by Christ.He becomes of “ no effect”.Gal1:9..... let him be accursed or damned by God if he preaches a different Gospel.Faith plus nothing....

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Go to Gal5:4....... one “falls from grace “by adding works to the simple Gospel of Paul given to him by Christ.He becomes of “ no effect”.Gal1:9..... let him be accursed or damned by God if he preaches a different Gospel.Faith plus nothing....

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I think you are misinterpreting that verse. What it means is that we don't enter into, neither do we keep our salvation through law-keeping. We are saved through the appropriation of the blood of Jesus and the receiving of the Holy Spirit into our hearts. This in no way means that the violation of the law will not be superseded and/or dealt with by the power of bearing the fruit of the Spirit, which is love. Love is the fulfilling of the law (Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 13:8-10 (kjv), 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6), and also we obey the law because of the love of God in our hearts, when we are faced with the law (Romans 5:5, Romans 8:4-7). We enter into salvation through repentance and faith (Matthew 3:8-12, Acts of the Apostles 3:19, Acts of the Apostles 17:30, Acts of the Apostles 20:21, Acts of the Apostles 26:20, 2 Corinthians 7:10); and good works are the result of salvation (Ephesians 2:10, Acts of the Apostles 26:20, Matthew 3:8). Most of the scripture I have given you was written or spoken by Paul, he would not preach another gospel than the true one and therefore be accursed.

justbyfaith said:

Therefore if we lose faith, we are no longer saved.



Then Jesus was in error in your theology, when He spoke what He said in John 6:28-29.
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You really should study to shew yourself approved, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed...

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Perhaps it is somebody else that needs to study a little more lest they be ashamed...2timothy 2:13....Abraham’s faith was non-existent at times,but......”if we are faithless , He remains faithful”

Blood Bought 1953 said:

Perhaps it is somebody else that needs to study a little more lest they be ashamed...2timothy 2:13....Abraham’s faith was non-existent at times,but......”if we are faithless , He remains faithful”

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Yes, what that means is that He ever lives to make intercession for us and will not give up on us even if we turn away, not that we can abide in salvation even without faith. In context, "If we deny him, he also will deny us..." (2 Timothy 2:12) and it is 2 Timothy 2:15.

Also, Abraham never wavered concerning the promise of God through unbellief, but waxed strong in faith, giving glory to God. Romans 4:20.

This is new wine very much like the old, and it may be intended for new wineskins. So if you are an old wineskin, perhaps you should leave off from receiving this wine lest you burst as a bottle and both the wine and the bottle are not preserved.

As Jesus said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hidden these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21.

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2147:

Paul said if we believe his Gospel, given to him by Christ Himself we would be saved. One is damned by adding to it ,whether it be works or repentance

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Paul said we need works for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8), and that we can ultimately lose our salvation if we sin without repentance (Romans 8:13).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2162:

Paul Said Christ is of no benefit to you . . .

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Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

If Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5), because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10), and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4), and have placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2162:

Paul Said Christ is of no benefit to you and you are accursed . . .

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Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:2-25 means that all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should stop trying to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For Galatians 3:2-25 says that the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are works of the flesh instead of God's Holy Spirit (Galatians 3:2-3). And Galatians 3:2-25 shows that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to do the works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law place themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10). And Galatians 3:2-25 says that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was only a temporary schoolmaster, which Christians, both Jews and Gentiles (so that Paul, a Jew, can say "we"), are no longer under (Galatians 3:24-25, cf. Romans 7:6).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2162:

Just make sure you realize that those works did not save you and they do not keep you saved. That is what a legalists believes.

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Grace sets Christians free from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 6:14b, John 1:17, Romans 7:6), but not from Jesus Christ's New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 15:10; 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), the commandments of which (John 14:15) are those He gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). For while Christians are initially saved by grace, by faith only (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), and do not have to obey the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Galatians 2:16, Romans 7:6), they do have to obey Jesus' New Covenant commandments in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

It is by Christians obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments, whether obeying them currently (1 John 3:24), or during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 12:17b), that Christians can be sure that they are truly loving Jesus (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and remaining in His love (John 15:10, John 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21). Christians must fear ultimately losing their salvation, ultimately being cut off the same as non-Christians, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2163:

Christ died for ALL sins...

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Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2163:

Faith plus nothing.

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Faith plus works for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2167:

Read who James is written to.

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The book of James is addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which is the same as addressing people in the Church (James 5:14), people with faith in Jesus Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (that is, Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Jesus to return (James 5:7).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2167:

Are you a member of the twelve tribes?

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Just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask God which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews by God if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2194:

Works follow faith as night follows day.

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Initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2196:

“Judaizer”—- in the Bible

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While Paul was not a Judaizer in the sense of requiring physical circumcision or any other works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, he was a Judaizer in that he taught that all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13). Also, Paul did not contradict that Christians' obeying Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 15:10), in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), is them obeying the commandments of a Jew (John 4:9,22b). Also, Paul taught that all Gentile Christians are grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

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Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2248:

. . . ”if we are faithless , He remains faithful”

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2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

This means that if Christians come to believe not (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Matthew 13:21), if they come to commit apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:3), this does not affect God's faithfulness to Himself. For He cannot deny Himself. But He will deny Christians who commit apostasy (2 Timothy 2:12), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, Mark 8:35-38).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2149:

. . . what kind of human father would keep his children in obedience by fear of being killed?

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Even though Christians are the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 13:3). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2152:

The FACT is that Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

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With conditions. For unrepentant Christians will ultimately suffer the same fate as non-Christians (e.g. Luke 12:45-46).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2153:

Jesus did all the work for our salvation.

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2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God/Jesus. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2153:

All we can do is receive His salvation.

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Ultimately, belief alone is not enough (Matthew 7:21).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2154:

You can't prove your theory about initial vs ultimate salvation . . .

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In the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Philippians 3:11-14).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2154:

. . . and you can't explain why God would even bother with the former if one is ultimately saved by the latter.

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Why would God even bother to save us now in our mortal bodies, when our ultimate salvation will be in immortal bodies (Romans 8:23-25)? That is, why doesn't He just give us immortal bodies as soon as we become Christians?

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2159:

Saving grace is NOT "accessed through obedience" . . .

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It is, ultimately (Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2159:

Second, saving grace is not a free gift.

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It is, initially (Ephesians 4:7).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2210:

If you think the devil doesn't "remember" what Scripture teaches, you have fooled yourself. He uses his knowledge of Scripture to trip up and deceive believers.

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Such as by quoting a single verse in the Bible as if what it says can have no conditions placed on it by other verses elsewhere in the Bible (Matthew 4:6-7).

Doug Melven said in post #2172:

Because it makes them dependent on self instead of Jesus Christ.

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No, for only Jesus Christ can save people (John 14:6, John 3:36), by His sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25), and by the ability that He gives Christians to continue in the faith (Hebrews 12:2), to continue to do good works (John 15:5), to continue to repent from any sin that they commit (John 8:34-36), and to overcome to the end (Revelation 12:11), by their own choice. All NOSAS does is admit the fact that there is no assurance that every Christian will choose to do all of these things to the end.

OSAS ultimately negates free will.

Doug Melven said in post #2172:

God said in Isaiah 64:6 that our righteousness is like filthy rags.

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On their own, Christians are not good enough to earn their salvation (Romans 3:10). But if they continue to abide in Jesus Christ (John 15:4-6), they can become good enough to earn their ultimate salvation (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-7, James 2:24, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9). For while Christians cannot do good apart from continuing to abide in Jesus (Romans 3:12, John 15:5b), if they do continue to abide in Him, they can do good (John 15:5, John 5:29, Philippians 2:12-13; 1 Timothy 6:18; 1 Peter 3:11; 3 John 1:11, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 6:8, Hebrews 13:16, Luke 6:35).

Also, Jesus has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16). So they can become perfectly holy before God (2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 6:22, Hebrews 12:14; 1 Thessalonians 4:7, Ephesians 4:24). And Jesus has made it possible for Christians to repent and confess their sins to God, and be completely forgiven, if they nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit a sin (1 John 1:9). They will lose their salvation ultimately only if they continue in a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

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Doug Melven said in post #2222:

[Rom.] 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

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With conditions (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #2222:

[1 Cor.] 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

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1 Corinthians 3:15 refers only to the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17), if that work is done in a faulty manner, by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20), and the glorying in human leaders of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21), instead of focusing on Jesus Christ Himself, and the everlasting wisdom of His Word the Holy Bible (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 is not contradicting that if a Christian, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, then he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

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Doug Melven said in post #2240:

God justifies the one who does not work.

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Initially, but not ultimately (James 2:24).

justbyfaith said in post #2173:

In Matthew 5:17-18, it is not referring to the prophets only, but the law and the prophets.

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Meaning the prophecies in both the law and the prophets regarding Jesus' first coming (Luke 24:44).

For example, Jesus Christ is the prophet of Acts 3:22-23 and Deuteronomy 18:15,19, which Bible passage the apostle Peter says "foretold of these days" (Acts 3:24,26), meaning that time in the first century AD. For at Jesus' first coming, He was raised up from the midst of the Israelites (Deuteronomy 18:15, Romans 1:3). And we must hearken to what Jesus taught (John 14:23-24, Deuteronomy 18:15), or we will be destroyed by God Himself (John 3:36, Deuteronomy 18:19).

justbyfaith said in post #2173:

Jesus is referring to the Old Testament in this passage.

Matthew 5:17-20 . . .

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Not in Matthew 5:19-20.

For Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

justbyfaith said in post #2173:

When a man surrenders to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, he is changed from the inside out: He no longer has the desire to go in the old sinful ways that he used to walk in before he became a Christian.

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2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

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justbyfaith said in post #2231:

Of course, in Jeremiah 32:38-40 we find that the LORD creates a for ever fear in the hearts of those who are truly His people . . .

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It's only a possibility:

Jeremiah 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever . . .

Not necessarily "will" fear me for ever. For true Christians can wrongly employ their free will to lose their fear of God (Romans 11:20-22).

BobRyan said:

OSAS -- not in the Bible --

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Oh, puleeeeeze!

Let's just call it what Jesus said about it in John 10:28.

Recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

BobRyan said:

Romans 11 "you stand only by your faith... do not be arrogant but fear - for if He did not spare them He may not spare you either"
Nothing symbolic in that quote. It is a text using plain language.

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OK, thanks for demonstrating your misunderstanding of what metaphors and figures of speech mean.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

You may deny this passage contains metaphors, but they are clearly there. For all to see.

I put the figures of speech in red for examples of what they are.

I said;
"So we know that Jesus gives the gift of eternal life WHEN one believes. And from that MOMENT, they shall never perish."

112358 said:

Incorrect. You don’t even understand when one receives the gift of eternal life. How can I expect you to have a biblical position on eternal security?

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I'd be interested in WHEN you think one is given the gift of eternal life.

However, regardless of your opinion, I know when the gift is given. It's when one believes in Christ. Jesus said so, clearly.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

The red words are all in the present tense, meaning that those who believe presently possess eternal life.

Now, what's your opinion of when eternal life is given?

justbyfaith said:

You have just contradicted yourself. At one point you say that we are saved by faith, not by works, but later you say that we aren't saved by our faith. Which one is it?

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To be technically correct, we are saved THROUGH faith, according to Eph 2:8. We are saved BY grace, which is THROUGH faith. Do you understand the difference here?

justbyfaith said, "I've even seen you quote from the Bible when it is convenient to do so; and at other times, actively oppose what the Bible says (actually, you do it in the same breath most of the time)."

This is just a blatant ad hominem.

I DARE you to provide any post (number) and quote where I "actively opposed what the Bible says".

It's the OSNAS crowd who does that regularly when John 10:28 is presented and rejected.