Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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112358

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Nonsense. He knows Scripture FAR better than either of us.
He is known to use scripture, but I am aware of no scriptural reference indicating that he knows it FAR better than us. Please support the position with said scriptural reference.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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And just so I'm clear...
If I believe Paul's Gospel, and my salvation is guaranteed, but then I add works, I am then damned, correct?
Then you clearly don't adhere to OSAS. There is so much wrong going on here, but this is the "logic" of OSAS.


Add all the works you desire.....If you are saved, they are going to happen anyway as a result of God putting His Spirit in you.....Just make sure you realize that those works did not save you and they do not keep you saved.That is what a legalists believes.That is how they pervert the Gospel.Paul Said Christ is of no benefit to you and you are accursed—- damned by God.Sorry for the bad news....why not simply believe Paul’s Gospel—— that’s the Good News!
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Allow me to replace what you insist on removing from God's Word in bold below:



You do agree that belief is a requirement, correct? Yet OSAS would have us accept that there are no other requirements. That somehow other acts of obedience are "works". Well, if that is true then belief itself is also a "work", because it is a requirement. But wait, I thought we are saved by grace alone without works? Your doctrine demands one and rejects the others. It fails the test of logic and sound reason. When weighed in the balance with the truth of God's Word it is found wanting.

And ultimately, this is why OSAS, if followed through to its logical end, results in a doctrine of universalism. If belief is removed as a requirement for saving grace, which it must if the other requirements are likewise removed, then saving grace becomes available to unbelievers. Christ died for all right? He paid the price for ALL sin, right?

You folks are making this too easy. I'll just keep deconstructing your OSAS fortress brick by brick with the truth of God's Word. It has a way of doing that.


Christ died for ALL sins....Trusting His Shed Blood alone is how we “ cash in”.Hardly universalism.Christ suffered for the sins of Hitler. Even he could have been saved.He is in Hell right now because of the same reason everybody else is there—— unbelief.His sins were paid for.Unbelief in Paul’s Gospel by adding to it will allow one to join him.Don't play with Paul’s Gospel,don’t add what you think you have to do to complete it.Just believe it.Faith plus nothing.
 
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112358

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Christ died for ALL sins....Trusting His Shed Blood alone is how we “ cash in”.Hardly universalism.Christ suffered for the sins of Hitler. Even he could have been saved.He is in Hell right now because of the same reason everybody else is there—— unbelief.His sins were paid for.Unbelief in Paul’s Gospel by adding to it will allow one to join him.Don't play with Paul’s Gospel,don’t add what you think you have to do to complete it.Just believe it.Faith plus nothing.
So belief is a requirement. If you believe, you're good. If you don't believe, you're not. Check.

Did you even read the rest of the post?
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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So belief is a requirement. If you believe, you're good. If you don't believe, you're not. Check.

Did you even read the rest of the post?


“ Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him as righteousness”. I figure that if it worked for Abe it will work for the rest of us.What makes you different?There is actually GOOD NEWS out there, if you will only believe it.Haven’t you heard?
 
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112358

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“ Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted to him as righteousness”. I figure that if it worked for Abe it will work for the rest of us.What makes you different?There is actually GOOD NEWS out there, if you will only believe it.Haven’t you heard?
YES! YES!

There are at least 3 places in the New Testament where Abe's faith is referenced. Let's check out the one from James if we may: James 2:21-24

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [j]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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James.....the last refuge for the modern- day Judaizers.Read who James is written to. Are you a member of the twelve tribes? Did Jesus tell you to follow James? Jesus told me to follow Paul .Every word of James is scriptural.Some , as he said, “wrest” the Word Of God. James words have a strong tendency to be “wrested”
Harley time.....talk later...God bless
 
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112358

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James.....the last refuge for the modern- day Judaizers.Read who James is written to. Are you a member of the twelve tribes? Did Jesus tell you to follow James? Jesus told me to follow Paul .Every word of James is scriptural.Some , as he said, “wrest” the Word Of God. James words have a strong tendency to be “wrested”
Harley time.....talk later...God bless
Nope, I'm not a member of the twelve tribes. And neither were they any longer. They were Jewish Christians. Nice try.
 
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Doug Melven

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So then, B.C., we can only get F's on our report card, while we must at the same time be learning the material so that when Jesus comes to live in us we can earn His A's.
When we learn that we can't be righteous we graduate. And graduation is when we are in Christ.
The schoolmaster has only one subject to teach us, and that is "we are sinners in need of a Savior".
btw, we can never earn anything from God.
Anything we receive from Him is because He was merciful to us.
Then there is the question of whether one can truly graduate from the classroom if all he gets are F's. At some point he is going to have to get a good grade in the classroom, if he is going to graduate.
We graduate as soon as we learn we are unrighteous.
 
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justbyfaith

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I asked:
"Please answer my question about why all these verses about being holy, blameless asnd worthy are given to believers, if those who have believed WILL be this way?"

This ad hominem is just an excuse to NOT answer the question. I gave you 25 verses that command the believer to be holy, blameless and worthy. But you can't answer the question.


All of this are commands for believers to obey.

But you've written this as if all believers will comply.

Again, IF all this is guaranteed or automatic, then WHY any commands? This is the question that you keep dodging.
I certainly didn't dodge the question. It is answered, for the one who has a mind to understand the answer.
 
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112358

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When we learn that we can't be righteous we graduate. And graduation is when we are in Christ.
The schoolmaster has only one subject to teach us, and that is "we are sinners in need of a Savior".
btw, we can never earn anything from God.
Anything we receive from Him is because He was merciful to us.
We graduate as soon as we learn we are unrighteous.

Not according to Jesus Christ (that's the red letters again). Matthew 5:20
One more brick from the fortress.
 
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Doug Melven

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It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).
You have a huge gray area in here between loving God perfectly and being apostate.
Which tells me you don't understand either how holy God is or how much He loves us.
You would have people depend on there own ability to repent, confess and have faith to be saved.
This is something no one can do. We must depend solely on God's mercy and grace.
If it was possible to lose salvation, your doctrine of initial/ultimate salvation would cause someone to lose there's.
Because it makes them dependent on self instead of Jesus Christ.

With conditions (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).
I am curious if you think we can make God flood the Earth again?
And could you tell me why you believe that?

Not according to Jesus Christ (that's the red letters again). Matthew 5:20
One more brick from the fortress.
20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Having Jesus Christ's righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees.
Paul said in Philippians 3 that our accomplishments are like dung.
God said in Isaiah 64:6 that our righteousness is like filthy rags.
 
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justbyfaith

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Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53).

That's not what it says. In Matthew 5:17-18, it is not referring to the prophets only, but the law and the prophets.
Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself (Philippians 3:5-14).
Jesus is referring to the Old Testament in this passage.

Matthew 5:17-20, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


*******
Jeremiah 32:40 does not mean once-saved-always-saved. For the fear of God comes via His Spirit (Isaiah 11:2). And Christians can wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to depart from God, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
God says in Jeremiah 32:38-40, that they shall fear me for ever. This indicates that this fear of the LORD will never end. How then can it be destroyed by the quenching of the Spirit? There are two classes of Christians: 1) those who have a nominal/lukewarm faith, a mental assent or emotional experience (Luke 8:13, Revelation 3:16), and 2) Those who have a living and saving, heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10). Now I am saying that those who fear the LORD for ever are of the second type, who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit; and who therefore will be influenced by Him in every way, so that everything God requires of them will be fulfilled to a greater extent every day (Proverbs 4:18) until it is perfectly fulfilled (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9) so that there is no going backward (Philippians 3:15-16). Also the fear of the LORD would be a motivation that would prevent them from ever quenching the Spirit, wouldn't it? It is only possible for the first type of Christian to quench the Holy Spirit, and this is why the command is in scripture.

While God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).
Actually, the word in Ezekiel 36:25-27 says that God causes them to walk in His statutes and His judgments. Now in doing so, He does not take away their free will, but He acts on their surrender; and if they ask Him to bind them to the horns of the altar as living sacrifices, He will.
When a man surrenders to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, he is changed from the inside out: He no longer has the desire to go in the old sinful ways that he used to walk in before he became a Christian. He is sealed by the Holy Spirit; and this means that his whole heart is changed and forevermore influenced by the Holy Spirit.

Now it says in Ezekiel 36:25-27,

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
 
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112358

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You would have people depend on there own ability to repent, confess and have faith to be saved
These are not the things on which we depend, they are the things which He has commanded us to do. If it were not possible, He would not have commanded it of us.
Luke 13:1
Romans 10:19
Revelation 2:10

God said in Isaiah 64:6 that our righteousness is like filthy rags.
You should have included verse 5: Isaiah 64:5
You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.

You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;

And we need to be saved.

Isaiah is saying that our righteousness is filthy rags when we continue in our sinful ways! He meets us when We remember Him in His ways...when we rejoice and do righteousness!

Another brick from the fortress. Seek truth!
 
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justbyfaith

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You have a huge gray area in here between loving God perfectly and being apostate.
Which tells me you don't understand either how holy God is or how much He loves us.
You would have people depend on there own ability to repent, confess and have faith to be saved.
This is something no one can do. We must depend solely on God's mercy and grace.
If it was possible to lose salvation, your doctrine of initial/ultimate salvation would cause someone to lose there's.
Because it makes them dependent on self instead of Jesus Christ.


I am curious if you think we can make God flood the Earth again?
And could you tell me why you believe that?


20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Having Jesus Christ's righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees.
Paul said in Philippians 3 that our accomplishments are like dung.
God said in Isaiah 64:6 that our righteousness is like filthy rags.
However, have you looked at Revelation 19:8? he re-clothes us with fine linen, which is the righteousness of saints.
 
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justbyfaith

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Allow me to replace what you insist on removing from God's Word in bold below:



You do agree that belief is a requirement, correct? Yet OSAS would have us accept that there are no other requirements. That somehow other acts of obedience are "works". Well, if that is true then belief itself is also a "work", because it is a requirement. But wait, I thought we are saved by grace alone without works? Your doctrine demands one and rejects the others. It fails the test of logic and sound reason. When weighed in the balance with the truth of God's Word it is found wanting.

And ultimately, this is why OSAS, if followed through to its logical end, results in a doctrine of universalism. If belief is removed as a requirement for saving grace, which it must if the other requirements are likewise removed, then saving grace becomes available to unbelievers. Christ died for all right? He paid the price for ALL sin, right?

You folks are making this too easy. I'll just keep deconstructing your OSAS fortress brick by brick with the truth of God's Word. It has a way of doing that.
Perseverance of the saints does not translate into Universalism when you couple it with Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.
 
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112358

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Perseverance of the saints does not translate into Universalism when you couple it with Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement.
Perhaps not, but the problem with Calvanism is that the T, the U, the L, the I, and the P are all unscriptural. But that is another thread altogether.
 
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justbyfaith

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Perhaps not, but the problem with Calvanism is that the T, the U, the L, the I, and the P are all unscriptural. But that is another thread altogether.
True (the latter statement). That subject can never be exhausted as far as I can tell. There will always be this division in the body of Christ, between Calvinism and Arminianism, until people begin to realize that both are true: that we are eternally secure as long as we abide in Christ. I believe that my teaching on Jeremiah 32:38-40 is the middle ground, in fact, that shows how both doctrines can come together in harmony.
 
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112358

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True (the latter statement). That subject can never be exhausted as far as I can tell. There will always be this division in the body of Christ, between Calvinism and Arminianism, until people begin to realize that both are true: that we are eternally secure as long as we abide in Christ. I believe that my teaching on Jeremiah 32:38-40 is the middle ground, in fact, that shows how both doctrines can come together in harmony.
I agree that we are eternally secure as long as we abide in Christ. I reject all the other "isms". I agree there should be harmony within the body of Christ, His church. I reject that conflicting doctrines can come together in unity because there is only the truth of God's Word. Christ is not divided. If it is not the truth of God's Word, then it is of man and not of Him.

Seek truth!
 
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These are not the things on which we depend, they are the things which He has commanded us to do. If it were not possible, He would not have commanded it of us.
Yes, we are commanded to do them, not to be righteous, but because we are righteous.
Isaiah is saying that our righteousness is filthy rags when we continue in our sinful ways! He meets us when We remember Him in His ways...when we rejoice and do righteousness!
Righteousnesses are good deeds, not sins.
And if we are living sinfully, we are obviously not doing good deeds.

However, have you looked at Revelation 19:8? he re-clothes us with fine linen, which is the righteousness of saints.
But these deeds do not save us or keep us saved or earn us salvation.
True (the latter statement). That subject can never be exhausted as far as I can tell. There will always be this division in the body of Christ, between Calvinism and Arminianism, until people begin to realize that both are true: that we are eternally secure as long as we abide in Christ. I believe that my teaching on Jeremiah 32:38-40 is the middle ground, in fact, that shows how both doctrines can come together in harmony.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are false.
Calvinism says God predestines some to Heaven and the rest can go to Hell.
Arminianism says our salvation is up to us, dependence on our ability.
 
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