Would we baptize aliens?

Most give too many umaks, quite perverse....

LizaMarie said:

Ferengis can be good guys sometimes!

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Petros2015 said:

Poses an interesting question - if the Orthodox position is that death entered as a consequence of sin. So... are alien worlds subject to death, or just our world? If not just our world, was it as a consequence of their sin in a similar Edenic scenario, or did ours affect the universe in general?

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Haha I was trying to avoid that question but I should have known better.

As others have said, we hear of the cosmos suffering the fall because of man. So ... if there ARE aliens somewhere - they would be suffering because of us? Because of OUR position as the priesthood to go between the created world and God?

Some would say that's a very human-centric way of thinking. But that's the natural conclusion of what we've been taught.

The heavens and the earth are to be restored - needing restoration because of the sin of our first parents.

ArmyMatt said:

if they are out there, they are animals. which means they will return when Christ returns in a glorified state (whatever that may be for them). animals have souls as well (that's why they are called animals). the nous is the highest faculty that lets one contemplate God directly. only angels and man are noetic. only man is both noetic and material. aliens would be material.

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You're leaving off one other option, though!

That the aliens are an unfamiliar sort of human. Intellectual, material, ensouled beings from another planet.

Cappadocious said:

You're leaving off one other option, though!

That the aliens are an unfamiliar sort of human. Intellectual, material, ensouled beings from another planet.

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I am pretty sure that would have been revealed to be an option. no saint or even modern theologian or elder has said that. Fr Tom Hopko I think nails it when he says if they are out there, they are part of the created order man was created to govern.

plus, you are saying that Christ gives us the great commission, and yet no means to go and baptize them and bring them into the Church.

ArmyMatt said:

plus, you are saying that Christ gives us the great commission, and yet no means to go and baptize them and bring them into the Church.

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I think it's fair to say that if (1) we suddenly get intelligent signals from another star, (2) the technology for interstellar travel suddenly gets invented, and (3) NASA sends a rocket to visit the aliens, then (4) we had better send a clergyman along to take a closer look.

At present, however, that's all looking extremely unlikely.

Radagast said:

I think it's fair to say that if (1) we suddenly get intelligent signals from another star, (2) the technology for interstellar travel suddenly gets invented, and (3) NASA sends a rocket to visit the aliens, then (4) we had better send a clergyman along to take a closer look.

At present, however, that's all looking extremely unlikely.

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yes, but not to baptize. there is nothing to support that advanced extraterrestrial life if it exists would be human, and we only baptize humans.

ArmyMatt said:

yes, but not to baptize. there is nothing to support that advanced extraterrestrial life if it exists would be human, and we only baptize humans.

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I'm suggesting that (in the extremely unlikely event that this actually comes up) we do what the Church has always done; send a bishop (possibly one specifically ordained for that purpose) to take a look.

Let the man on the ground decide whether they are suitable to be baptised.

The more interesting question is: which clergyman would get sent? Catholic? Orthodox? A monk who can handle being in a tiny cubicle on the spaceship for a long time?

Radagast said:

I'm suggesting that (in the extremely unlikely event that this actually comes up) we do what the Church has always done; send a bishop (possibly one specifically ordained for that purpose) to take a look.

Let the man on the ground decide whether they are suitable to be baptised.

The more interesting question is: which clergyman would get sent? Catholic? Orthodox? A monk who can handle being in a tiny cubicle on the spaceship for a long time?

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well, no, there is only one question for baptism, and that is are they human according to our anthropology. there is no evidence to suggest they are.

ArmyMatt said:

well, no, there is only one question for baptism, and that is are they human according to our anthropology. there is no evidence to suggest they are.

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I would not withhold baptism from anyone or anything who confessed Jesus as their savior and wanted to be baptized.

And as I alluded earlier, that prospect might become real with regard to human clones within the lifetimes of people living today.

RDKirk said:

I would not withhold baptism from anyone or anything who confessed Jesus as their savior and wanted to be baptized.

And as I alluded earlier, that prospect might become real with regard to human clones within the lifetimes of people living today.

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and many of our saints have had visions where they could hear the animals and plants confessing Christ and we don't baptize them.

ArmyMatt said:

and many of our saints have had visions where they could hear the animals and plants confessing Christ and we don't baptize them.

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I don't know about visions. I'd only know about a person standing in front of me.

RDKirk said:

I don't know about visions. I'd only know about a person standing in front of me.

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doesn't matter, all of creation confesses Christ, which means that is not reason enough to baptize an extraterrestrial.

Cappadocious said:

You're leaving off one other option, though!

That the aliens are an unfamiliar sort of human. Intellectual, material, ensouled beings from another planet.

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ArmyMatt said:

I am pretty sure that would have been revealed to be an option. no saint or even modern theologian or elder has said that...plus, you are saying that Christ gives us the great commission, and yet no means to go and baptize them and bring them into the Church.

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This seems like a strange and out-of-left-field standard for what is possible. I mean, we didn't know about Native Americans or Papua New Guineans for a long time, no specific revelations about them, but they're humans we'd want to evangelize.

Cappadocious said:

This seems like a strange and out-of-left-field standard for what is possible. I mean, we didn't know about Native Americans or Papua New Guineans for a long time, no specific revelations about them, but they're humans we'd want to evangelize.

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it's because they are human. there is nothing to support extraterrestrial life as something to be baptized if they are out there, because there is nothing to support they are human.

ArmyMatt said:

if they are out there, because there is nothing to support they are human.

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If there are intellectual, ensouled and material, they are human. The idea that we would need a saintly pronouncement on humans being somewhere for there to be humans there is without demonstration.

On the other hand: There were saints who believed there were no inhabitants on the other side of the world, were there not? Or continents beyond the great seas, let alone with people? But don't you think "any animal there is not human, therefore it cannot be baptized" would have sounded absurd to them?

Cappadocious said:

If there are intellectual, ensouled and material, they are human. The idea that we would need a saintly pronouncement on humans being somewhere for there to be humans there is without demonstration.

On the other hand: There were saints who believed there were no inhabitants on the other side of the world, were there not? Or continents beyond the great seas, let alone with people? But don't you think "any animal there is not human, therefore it cannot be baptized" would have sounded absurd to them?

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your first point is pure speculation but does relate to your second. yes, there were saints I am sure who had no clue there were folks living in the Americas or the Pacific Islands. however, once they did, they were baptized when they could (like the Russians with the Native Alaskans). with extraterrestrials, all I have ever heard is they are demons or some kind of natural thing that we don't know, or some kind of psychological delusion, or if they are out there, they are animals created for man to govern. I have yet to hear anything otherwise, and as a priest of the Church, this is really not something I wanna waste my time speculating about.

maybe if you have heard anything from the Church that says otherwise we can get somewhere.

Jackson Cooper said:

I think Pope Francis said he would.
The universe is so massive, and we've seen so little of it. FTL travel may or may not be physically possible with the right technology.

If there are aliens, and these aliens were capable of learning and reasoning like humans, would they be welcome in the Eastern Orthodox Church?

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That's a great question. I'm just a convert into the Orthodox faith. I've been fascinated with Sci Fi like Star Trek or Avatar. Because of that, I even imagined of a planet in another star system that has an alien society with a Medieval like civilization and that sometime in several hundred years from now, humans travel from Earth to that planet on an interstellar spaceship and set a colony there.now
I know that Orthodoxy does not deny the existence of aliens and when humans discover a real alien civilization, the Church would acknowledge their existence unlike Fundamentalist Protestants. As far as whether they can be baptized or be Christians is quite questionable. I also know aliens did not call in the Original Sin of Adam.

ArmyMatt said:

with extraterrestrials, all I have ever heard is they are demons or some kind of natural thing that we don't know, or some kind of psychological delusion

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Yeah Fr. Seraphim Rose was talking about UFOs, rather than aliens as such, right? Not that we should be taking his word as gospel, either way.

ArmyMatt said:

or if they are out there, they are animals created for man to govern.

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What would the demo for that be?

ArmyMatt said:

I have yet to hear anything otherwise

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This seems like the same way biblicists read the bible, if it isn't explicitly there we can't talk about it, if a Father hasn't speculated about it it's off the table.

Cappadocious said:

This seems like the same way biblicists read the bible, if it isn't explicitly there we can't talk about it, if a Father hasn't speculated about it it's off the table.

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When you have mastered your passions, been graced with wisdom and farsight and delved deep into these issues yourself, please enlighten us with what God has revealed to you.

Cappadocious said:

Yeah Fr. Seraphim Rose was talking about UFOs, rather than aliens as such, right? Not that we should be taking his word as gospel, either way.

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no, Fr Seraphim goes into alien encounters too, but it's not just him. on one of the CDs I have, Fr Tom Hopko goes into it at length, Fr Michel Najim has spoken about it, Abp Michael of NY, etc.

Cappadocious said:

What would the demo for that be?

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same way for any other creature. man, as the High Priest has dominion over them, and so offers them in love to God, which deepens our communion with them.

Cappadocious said:

This seems like the same way biblicists read the bible, if it isn't explicitly there we can't talk about it, if a Father hasn't speculated about it it's off the table.

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I didn't say not to talk about it, I just said it's pure speculation and as Christians, when it comes to what the faith says, we are not to do it.