ICE and witness

archer75 · May 29, 2018

I don't intend a debate here, but just in case.

The well-publicized actions of ICE in connection with separating children from their families - and then losing them, or many of them - are so monstrous as to be beyond description (regardless of the contortions used to justify these actions).

I feel like a garbage witness for Christ. I am a garbage witness for Christ. If ICE were forcing pregnant women into having abortions, Orthodox (and maybe even me) would be foaming in the streets. Now - I'm watching the spiritual shredding of countless families, and I'm here on CF.

Thedictator · May 29, 2018

ICE is not a Christian organization it is a police force that deals with illegal immigration.
Like most liberals and a lot Christians say America is not a Christian nation. Well welcome to a secular nation, those children and parents are criminals, it is not ICE's job to deal with them in a Christian way but in an legal way, sometimes bad things happen incarceration.

FenderTL5 · May 29, 2018

Lord have mercy.

majj27 · May 29, 2018

Well, there's a few things being mashed together in this stew of "This Is Awful". And yes, a lot of it IS truly awful.

1) The missing children (the 1,400+) were under HHS, who placed them and then kind of washed their hands of them. This is not a good thing, because kids have been trafficked under HHS' nose before. But they were here prior to AG Sessions' separation decision.

2) Separating all minors from their parents at the border isn't a law. It's a policy change from AG Sessions, which essentially treats ALL applicants to entry as illegal crossers, thus separating the kids and making them subject to detention by HHS. So a mother of three from El Salvador fleeing gang violence and applying at the border for asylum would have her children removed and the kids would then be treated as unaccompanied border crossers and detained and then placed in care by HHS.

So we've actually got two issues here. One is a failure of HHS to do the decent thing and at least keep track of where they kids wind up once they're here. The other is a policy that winds up punishing asylum seekers for seeking asylum by forcibly splitting up parents from their children.

In either case, it's not good. Any time, say, an asylum seeker is separated from their 6 year old daughter (who is blind, btw) and 4 year old son, the human cost is bound to be pretty high.

ArmyMatt · May 29, 2018

Lord have mercy!

Cappadocious · Jun 4, 2018

Thedictator said:
sometimes bad things happen incarceration.

Reminds me of the nationalist Buddhism taught under Imperial Japan:

In the great river of passing events, occasionally a bayonet finds its way into a child's stomach. And occasionally you're holding the rifle attached to it. Such is life.

gzt · Jun 14, 2018

Those members of ICE participating in such actions should be excommunicated.

gzt · Jun 14, 2018

Thedictator said:
ICE is not a Christian organization it is a police force that deals with illegal immigration.
Like most liberals and a lot Christians say America is not a Christian nation. Well welcome to a secular nation, those children and parents are criminals, it is not ICE's job to deal with them in a Christian way but in an legal way, sometimes bad things happen incarceration.

This is not rue in many of these cases (they are even treating asylum cases in this way), and the way they are dealing with them is far beyond what is necessary or prudent - or has been done historically. Even if you were correct, which you are not, there is no sort of carte blanche here.

mothcorrupteth · Jun 18, 2018

I have no love of the Fed and no love for ICE. I'm for neighborhoods' rights before cities' rights, for cities' rights before states' rights, and for states' rights before the alleged prerogatives of federal government. The immigration issue is only an issue because that same federal government has been mucking around in the Middle East since WWII. If "they comin' to America," it's our fault.

I also care about immigrants. Most of my ancestors came from Germany, and when they got here the Anglos considered them non-white and chased them out of Philadelphia, and then later the Anglos harassed and even lynched them just because they happened to be from the same country that was being unfairly blamed for starting the first World War.

Buuuuuuut...

The Left regularly splits children from their parents ideologically by injecting the public school system and higher education with their politics. And when conservatives and libertarians decide, "No, you won't engage in ideological brood parasitism with our children," progressives fuss about the "inequity" of charter and private schools and homeschool vouchers. What makes them suddenly "compassionate" about driving wedges in families when the topic is immigration? They sure don't care when they want to shoehorn drag queen reading time into the local Kindergarten against parents' wishes.

We already separate children from any parent we incarcerate, many of whom are low-income and living in neighborhoods not much better off than ones in third-world countries. We don't accept, "Oh, he was poor," as a reason that justifies theft. We might sympathize, but we don't justify. Because bottom line: People are built so that if you draw a line in the sand and don't follow through, they will take advantage of you. And that's exactly what we're doing when we say, "You need to follow the process if you want in this country," then let them in anyway when they don't follow the process. It's our fault they're here, but the solution isn't to throw up our hands and say, "Forget the rules!" The solution is to stop fighting Israel's regime-change wars.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 18, 2018

I admit not knowing much about this subject. And my knee-jerk reaction is to be horrified. In the case of some outcomes I've read about, such a reaction is justified. But maybe there's more to the story.

I've been thinking about what I read here (article below). More about what the effects of our policies are and how and why it is encouraging immigrants to bring children, which if we are ultimately concerned for the children, this should matter.

I don't have an answer. And I'm no expert. It's just this article seems to make very rational points.

Separating Kids at Border: The Truth | National Review

ubicaritas · Jun 25, 2018

Thedictator said:
ICE is not a Christian organization it is a police force that deals with illegal immigration.
Like most liberals and a lot Christians say America is not a Christian nation. Well welcome to a secular nation, those children and parents are criminals, it is not ICE's job to deal with them in a Christian way but in an legal way, sometimes bad things happen incarceration.

That argument was just as bankrupt when the Nazis used it decades ago, as it is today.

Cappadocious said:
Reminds me of the nationalist Buddhism taught under Imperial Japan:

In the great river of passing events, occasionally a bayonet finds its way into a child's stomach. And occasionally you're holding the rifle attached to it. Such is life.

Indeed. Nothing is worse than when cruelty is wrapped in the sacred.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 25, 2018

I honestly detest political wrangling. But it cannot escape notice - much as I'd like to sometimes.

These children appear to be sentimental pawns.

A big fuss suddenly made about a policy that's been in effect for a long time.

A real hands-tied situation - what would people prefer the administration to do? Put the children in jail with their parents? Or allow any person who enters illegally for any reason with a child in tow (who might or might not be their own child, creating a rather frightening "market" for children) to go free, thus inviting any and everyone for any reason to illegally enter the US with a child in tow so they are assured of being set free?

It's a no-win situation.

So solutions are offered. And yet ... people who were up in arms about the children are now unwilling to cooperate with proposed solutions to help said children?

Political wrangling is disgusting. But maybe it will lead to some truth coming out. Or maybe not. People can be very entrenched in political ideaologies.

I for one think if we made the decisions quickly instead of taking years - this would be a non-issue.

Lord have mercy.

ubicaritas · Jun 25, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
I honestly detest political wrangling. But it cannot escape notice - much as I'd like to sometimes.

These children appear to be sentimental pawns.

A big fuss suddenly made about a policy that's been in effect for a long time.

A real hands-tied situation - what would people prefer the administration to do? Put the children in jail with their parents? Or allow any person who enters illegally for any reason with a child in tow (who might or might not be their own child, creating a rather frightening "market" for children) to go free, thus inviting any and everyone for any reason to illegally enter the US with a child in tow so they are assured of being set free?

It's a no-win situation.

So solutions are offered. And yet ... people who were up in arms about the children are now unwilling to cooperate with proposed solutions to help said children?

Political wrangling is disgusting. But maybe it will lead to some truth coming out. Or maybe not. People can be very entrenched in political ideaologies.

I for one think if we made the decisions quickly instead of taking years - this would be a non-issue.

Lord have mercy.

With all respect to your intelligence, I think that is a false dichotomy. Trump and his supporters are engaged in the fallacy of appealing to the extreme or reductio ad absurdum. Either you are for draconian policies or you support "open borders". Well, that's just not the case at all.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 25, 2018

ubicaritas said:
With all respect to your intelligence, I think that is a false dichotomy. Trump and his supporters are engaged in the fallacy of appealing to the extreme or reductio ad absurdum. Either you are for draconian policies or you support "open borders". Well, that's just not the case at all.

Well my last point was - why don't we decide more quickly? That would be one possible solution. And various other things could help. I am not insisting there is only that dichotomy, though that is presented and sans solutions, it is fairly true.

I purposely didn't mention Trump though clearly he is at the center of this.

Like I said, I detest political wrangling. And more and more it becomes apparent that that's what this is. I'm not putting Trump forth as some kind of savior of the US (though frankly he's doing some things right) ... but what comes most clearly from this debacle is just that - it's a debacle. It's not about concern for those children. Though in feeling people that has happened, so that's a good thing as well.

archer75 · Jun 25, 2018

The option of not prosecuting those attempting to cross "illegally" and returning them home - with their children - is available.

And asylum seekers do not need to be treated as criminals or lawbreakers.

This is an extreme draconian cruelty. The present administration has chosen to apply the "rules" in this way. No hands are tied.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 25, 2018

archer75 said:
The option of not prosecuting those attempting to cross "illegally" and returning them home - with their children - is available.

And asylum seekers do not need to be treated as criminals or lawbreakers.

This is an extreme draconian cruelty. The present administration has chosen to apply the "rules" in this way. No hands are tied.

I absolutely agree with you.

If I'm not mistaken though - if they are willing to return to their countries, aren't they released to do so? Our jails are already overfilled. What do we gain by detaining people who would return home? I've not had that much to do with immigration but that's always the policy I've seen. If you're willing to leave, you're free to go.

As to asylum - I also agree. But can't we decide more quickly? There IS a need to keep tabs on the people or "asylum" is just a magic word to let anyone who wants to illegally enter do so freely.

I think there is a great deal of manipulation all around and that's one thing I object to.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 25, 2018

And I'm NOT arguing FOR any political entity.

I have to say I'm a little heartbroken for a family in our parish. They are from Romania, and half the family came over - legally. The father has a job. The older sister takes care of the littlest one who is not much more than a toddler. The mother - is in Romania. And I don't understand why she can't seem to come in and there have been legal problems. The family was a bright spot in our parish but they stopped coming some months ago because the situation is just weighing too heavily on them. I think it's heartbreaking.

I think we need lots of fixes.

archer75 · Jun 25, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
I absolutely agree with you.

If I'm not mistaken though - if they are willing to return to their countries, aren't they released to do so? Our jails are already overfilled. What do we gain by detaining people who would return home? I've not had that much to do with immigration but that's always the policy I've seen. If you're willing to leave, you're free to go.

As to asylum - I also agree. But can't we decide more quickly? There IS a need to keep tabs on the people or "asylum" is just a magic word to let anyone who wants to illegally enter do so freely.

I think there is a great deal of manipulation all around and that's one thing I object to.

@~Anastasia~, to my knowledge, once they are "caught" (or present themselves as asylum-seekers), they are not permitted to "just go home." The children are ripped away from them (I don't care for the euphemistic "family separation") or tricked away from them, sent to their own jail, and the parents are sent to the parent jail.

Indeed, our jails are already overfilled. With people who have committed horrible crimes, with people who have broken laws that are in place only to keep our profitable prisons going strong, and with people who have committed no crime at all (apart from not being able to afford an attorney, getting a drunk public defender, being in the wrong place at the wrong time, being the wrong color...). No matter how you slice it, we don't need more people in prisons or in various stages of "processing."

We cannot decide more quickly, because this is a manufactured crisis. The purpose of this is to cause a crisis. The media is not manufacturing it. The administration of President Trump is manufacturing it. The purposes are to distract the public from other goings-on and to give certain people something to chew on. President Trump is using this to throw a "bone" to his base. The gist is "See, those libtards really have something to cry about. Check it out, even the liberal media like CNN will give you some misery-inappropriate content - look at those little monkeys in cages. Wah wah, crying for mommy and daddy. Ha, don't you feel better about losing your job now?"

Please note: the above paragraph does not say, and by it I do not mean, that everyone who voted for Trump is enjoying this. I am sure that there are many who voted for Trump who are horrified by what is going on. However, many people (regardless of their vote in 2016) are enjoying it, and their comments can easily be found online, on FB, etc.

I almost wish I could say the purpose was to hurt these people, these children. But I think that motivation is a little too close to "normal" (fallen-normal): I am a fallen and not good person and I can understand the possibility of enjoying someone else's suffering, shameful as I feel even typing it. But here, I think the motivation is more just to distract, enflame the passions of hatred ("I hate those brown people", envy ("See, maybe NOW these animals will be satisfied where they are instead of looking for a handout"), anger (No comment), and pride ("I'm X, these people are Y, where do they get off...").

archer75 · Jun 25, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
And I'm NOT arguing FOR any political entity.

I have to say I'm a little heartbroken for a family in our parish. They are from Romania, and half the family came over - legally. The father has a job. The older sister takes care of the littlest one who is not much more than a toddler. The mother - is in Romania. And I don't understand why she can't seem to come in and there have been legal problems. The family was a bright spot in our parish but they stopped coming some months ago because the situation is just weighing too heavily on them. I think it's heartbreaking.

I think we need lots of fixes.

I've heard of this sort of thing, and at one point even had an inkling of how it "worked." I've forgotten, but of course, even this is incredibly foul.

archer75 · Jun 25, 2018

~Anastasia~ said:
As to asylum - I also agree. But can't we decide more quickly? There IS a need to keep tabs on the people or "asylum" is just a magic word to let anyone who wants to illegally enter do so freely.

By the way, I can't help but nitpick here - even if asylum were granted as a simple rubberstamp to literally anyone - which it isn't and to my knowledge never has been - that still wouldn't be letting "anyone who wants to illegally enter do so freely." They'd be entering legally, with the appropriate rubberstamp.

This is far beyond ridiculous. It's pure evil, it's anti-family, it's not even so much anti-Christian (though it is!) as it is anti- any remotely respectable society. The very idea that it's about immigration or borders or law is itself a satanic distraction, cleverly designed to lead decent people into a thicket of opinions.

This is not about law, not about asylum, not about Romans 13, not about civil authority. This is the brass-knuckled hand of organized crime tearing a child from its mother's breast and then punching them both in the face until they're unrecognizable - as entertainment, as an example. "Hey, citizens, nice families you got there...be a shame if something happened to them..."

ICE and witness

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