Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

justbyfaith · Jun 4, 2018

Of course we must make a distinction between mental assent, or an emotional experience, which is a faith like the demons have; and a living and saving heart faith, which is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and is tenacious unto enduring to the end (Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, Matthew 10:22).

FreeGrace2 · Jun 4, 2018

I explained the parable of the weeds and good seed in Matt 13.

justbyfaith said:
So I think you must agree then, that those who are given eternal life do not work or do iniquity, to the very end of their lives.

Why would you think that? And the parable of the weeds doesn't even include what you're inserting here.

Because if they begin to believe, and then turn back to iniquity, will they be cast into the furnace of fire or not? =/QUOTE]
I explained the parable, verse by verse. If you disagree with anything I explained, go back to that post, and discuss anything you disagreed with.

If not, then Matthew 13:41-42 is nullified. If so, then they believed for a while and their eternal fate was the lake of fire. And that doesn't sound like salvation to me. It sounds like perishing.

Click to expand...

There wasn't anything about works in the parable. Go back and read it.

Somehow I knew you were going to focus on that and ignore the other aspect of my argument. Both above and below you have no answer to the understanding that God says, Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. This indicates that departing from God is possible.

Click to expand...

What it doesn't mean is to "jump out of His hand", per John 10:28.

One "departs the living God" by ceasing to believe. Nothing more.

And the only way to depart from God is to depart from faith in Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

yes.

Faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven (John 14:6). Therefore if I depart from faith in Jesus, I will not go to heaven.

Click to expand...

The error here is to assume one's faith is what saves. That would be in error.

One is saved by God Himself. He saves those who believe. And from THAT MOMENT, there is no reverting back to an unsaved state. So quit presuming such.

I already knew what your position was on this, but for the sake of those who would believe the truth on the subject, that to be a partaker of Christ means that I am saved, I gave the plain meaning of the text, that to be a partaker of Christ means salvation.

Click to expand...

I showed otherwise. Take it up with some Greek lexicon.

If I am not in Christ, that is, not a partaker of Christ, then I am not in the body of Christ and therefore not saved.

Click to expand...

This is presumption.

Not in our own ability to endure. In God's ability to keep us; and yes, we must be willing for Him to keep us. 1 Peter 1:5-7, 1 John 5:18.

Click to expand...

That's it. Just throw in random verses, esp ones that have no relevance to your claims.

But, you've just claimed that God is dependent upon our will. That is pure nonsense.

So what you are saying is that you do not have a heart that is open to what the Holy Spirit might say through any one of us, neither a teachable spirit.

Click to expand...

No, I'm not saying that at all. Those who espouse views that are in direct conflict with Scripture are NOT being influenced at all by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, such behavior indicates that the believer who espouses OSNAS is grieving the Holy Spirit.

No matter, we will continue to contend for the faith here, if we cannot ever convince you of the truth, at least we will be able to keep you from deceiving other people with your teaching of greasy grace ("sloppy agape"), wherein you turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:3-4).

Click to expand...

No matter how you express your ad hominem, the truth is on my side, because I have accepted exactly what Scripture says. Unlike your side, who doesn't believe that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. In spite of the fact that Jesus said it plainly.

That's interesting that you would say that and then not include in the quoting of me in your post the scriptural backup that I gave. This indicates a dishonesty in your position and practice

Click to expand...

More nonsense. You've never quoted Scripture that supports your presumptions.

and Jesus said of course that we will know who is true and who is false by the fruit that they bear. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit; and yet bad fruit (dishonest dealings) is what you are bearing.

Click to expand...

I bear the truth: recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Whoever believes in Christ HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. Therefore, one is eternally secure the MOMENT they believe.

The problem is that you think you have eternal life and will never perish even if you depart from faith in Jesus Christ and begin again to work and do iniquity.

Click to expand...

I believe what Jesus said; that recipients of eternal life, given WHEN they believe, shall never perish.

The Bible does not teach this, in fact, it teaches the opposite, as I have already shown you in times past.

Click to expand...

Lack of discernment misses the point that the Bible WANTS all believers to live lives of holiness, blamelessness and worthiness. But lack thereof doesn't result in loss of salvation.

But because you have an unteachable spirit, you will probably never understand the truth

Click to expand...

lol. After giving John 10:28 these countless times, and all the resistance to what it plainly says, the unteachable ones are those in the OSNAS crowd.

They directly oppose what Jesus said.

and will very likely perish in the end; because you put your trust in a single verse rather than in Jesus Himself and in everything He said.

Click to expand...

Well, at least you're honest enough to admit that a "single verse" isn't enough for you.

Every verse is enough for me. And there are no verses that say any recipients of eternal life can perish.

That's not my opinion. That's from Jesus Himself.

Click to expand...

You have no clue.

That's what you think.

Click to expand...

I think what the Bible teaches plainly.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 4, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What does it matter what uneducated people think? I'm only taking about those to whom Jesus GIVEs eternal life. They shall never perish, which is eternal security.

Many religious people from many religions think they will go to heaven. But how does that relate to John 10:28? Not at all. So your statement here is irrelevant. Possibly a smokescreen.

He "may"? No, He already HAS. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 10:28, 11:25-27, Eph 2:8,9.

I already refuted your notions about that passage. It's not about losing salvation at all, if you actually consider the whole parable and its explanation.

The "good seed" refer to believers and "weeds" refer to unbelievers. Obviously.

See? You keep forcing conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Yet, Jesus did no such thing in John 10:28. This verse continues to refute your notions.

Do you even understand what is meant by "the will of God" here? Also found in Matt 7:21.

John 6:40 answers this question of what "the will of God" refers to.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

So "the will of God" is about having eternal life.

And I've explained this thoroughly as well. To "abide" is about fellowship and the filling of the Holy Spirit. So when the believer is filled with the Spirit, he CANNOT sin. Simple as that.

Wow. Where to start?

1. Please support your notion that "abiding in salvation" is even biblical.
2. Please support from Scripture that personal actions/behaviors are related in any way to either obtaining or losing salvation.
3. Please support from Scripture that the one who is born of God is guaranteed to make all these changes that you presume?

I know better, because of the clear evidence from Scripture about all the warnings regarding behavior.

If any of this were true, there would be no need for ANY warning or admonition for proper behavior for believers. It would be irrelevant.

But the fact that there are many such verses, your presumptions are proven false.

Consider this evidence from Scripture:

Worthy

Eph 4:1- As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Phil 1:27- Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 1:11 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith

Holy

Rom 12:1 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship

1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours:

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless

Col 1:22 - But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones

1 Thess 4:4 - that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable

1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life

2 Tim 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of tim

2 Tim 2:21 - If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Titus 1:8 - Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined

Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord

1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

Blameless

1 Cor 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

Phil 1:10 - so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ

Phil 2:14-15 - Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him

Why would any of these verses be in Scripture if what you've just said was true?

justbyfaith said:
We've gone over this before in a different thread. It's alright, I don't mind doing the work of refuting you all over again for the sake of the reader (Philippians 3:1), even though you will very likely never get it.

Just refute all these verses about commands for holiness, blamelessness, and worthiness. lol.

The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). All of the verses that tell us what we are to do and be as Christians fall under the category of Old and New Testament law. Once we come to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25) because we have learned all that the schoolmaster had to teach us. As born again believers, we obey the leadings and guidings of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13-14), and as we do this, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). We bear the fruit of the Spirit, and against this there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). Once we are born again, and have been given a new heart and a new spirit, God causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13). We retain all the lessons taught us by our schoolmaster and are obedient to those lessons through the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

So this is a refutation???? Really???

Please answer my question about why all these verses about being holy, blameless asnd worthy are given to believers, if those who have believed WILL be this way?

That was the subject of a post I had responded to.

112358 · Jun 4, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I answered your 2 questions in my initial response.

Here's your questions:
"No one has yet answered my question about Satan seeking those, like a lion, that he might devour. Is it those who already belong to him? Or is it Christians?"

I answered "yes" to both. OK, I did the same thing you did.

But let's put this to bed. The devil seeks to devour believers. Period.

Move on.

Yes let’s move on to the most important part of the question. If Satan seeks to devour Christians, then it must be possible for him to do so. What then becomes of the Christian? Is the reference to physical death? The end of all physical life is death, Christians and non Christians. What then remains but spiritual death?

FreeGrace2 · Jun 4, 2018

112358 said:
Yes let’s move on to the most important part of the question. If Satan seeks to devour Christians, then it must be possible for him to do so. What then becomes of the Christian? Is the reference to physical death? The end of all physical life is death, Christians and non Christians. What then remains but spiritual death?

I think it's clear that physical death would be the end result.

Just consider 1 Cor 5:5, in which an incestuous man in the congregation was "turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh". This is clearly about physical death.

Satan would love to painfully kill every believer. Remove them all.

Paul then explains to the congregation in 1 Cor 11:30 why there was so much weakness, sickness and even a number of physical deaths in their midst. This is divine discipline.

112358 · Jun 4, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I think it's clear that physical death would be the end result.

Just consider 1 Cor 5:5, in which an incestuous man in the congregation was "turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh". This is clearly about physical death.

Satan would love to painfully kill every believer. Remove them all.

Paul then explains to the congregation in 1 Cor 11:30 why there was so much weakness, sickness and even a number of physical deaths in their midst. This is divine discipline.

No sir. Paul said that for the believer to die physical death is gain. The reference cannot be to physical death. Satan could care less about physical death. He wants us in hell with him.

Doug Melven · Jun 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The fear of the LORD, even of falling away, is the safeguard given in scripture by which we will not fall away (see Jeremiah 32:38-40 and the thread that you will find through the following link):

Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of theLORD are true and righteous altogether.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: becausefear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
God wants us to fear Him, not be afraid of Him.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

We should fear God, that is be in awe of Him.
We should have complete respect for Him and His Word. Life will be much easier for us if we do this.
But to be afraid of Him because He might punish us, that type of fear has torment and is an ungodly fear.
That is the type of fear a child of wrath should have.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
This is how Jesus translated this verse.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

112358 said:
Yes let’s move on to the most important part of the question. If Satan seeks to devour Christians, then it must be possible for him to do so. What then becomes of the Christian? Is the reference to physical death? The end of all physical life is death, Christians and non Christians. What then remains but spiritual death?

The ones that the devil gets would be fallen soldiers.
Fallen soldiers do not get left behind.
Maybe an irresponsible military unit might leave the fallen soldiers behind. But our Captain would not.
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

112358 · Jun 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of theLORD are true and righteous altogether.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: becausefear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
God wants us to fear Him, not be afraid of Him.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

We should fear God, that is be in awe of Him.
We should have complete respect for Him and His Word. Life will be much easier for us if we do this.
But to be afraid of Him because He might punish us, that type of fear has torment and is an ungodly fear.
That is the type of fear a child of wrath should have.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
This is how Jesus translated this verse.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The ones that the devil gets would be fallen soldiers.
Fallen soldiers do not get left behind.
Maybe an irresponsible military unit might leave the fallen soldiers behind. But our Captain would not.
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

If the devil gets them, they are of his family and not of the family of God. They do not get left behind. They defect from the Army of their own accord by allowing themselves to be led away of their own lusts. They forsake their rightful inheritance for a lie.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 4, 2018

112358 said:
No sir. Paul said that for the believer to die physical death is gain.

Seriously? OK, go ahead and ignore the clear message of 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, Acts 5 and 1 John 5:16 then.

[QOUTE] The reference cannot be to physical death.[/QUOTE]
It sure can't be eternal death, since all who have believed HAVE eternal LIFE and shall never perish.

Satan could care less about physical death. He wants us in hell with him.

Again, go ahead and ignore the clear message of 1 Cor 5:5.

How come you seem clueless as to the fact that Satan is very capable of making one's physical death quite painful and miserable.

When Paul said "to die is gain" he was obviously referring to the result of being "face to face" with Christ in heaven. Which is gain.

But I'm talking about God's discipline, which includes a painful and possibly slow death at the hands of the devil. Which you seem to want to ignore or change the subject.

As to your presumption that Satan wants believers to be in hell with him is nonsense.

While you don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life never perishing, Satan has no such presumptions about it.

He knows the ONLY TIME he can cause a believer to suffer is NOW, while the believer is on earth.

He knows that once the person dies, he has NO MORE effect on them.

Unlike your view, he does believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

So he is more than eager to get his hands on any believer for the purpose of suffering, up to and including death.

Not only 1 Cor 5:5 makes this point, but so does 1 Tim 1:19.

Doug Melven · Jun 4, 2018

112358 said:
f the devil gets them, they are of his family and not of the family of God.

That is your unScriptural interpretation.
God has promised He would not leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5

And if your interpretation were true, one who Jesus gave eternal life to would have perished.
Therefore your interpretation is incorrect.

112358 · Jun 4, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Seriously? OK, go ahead and ignore the clear message of 1 Cor 5:5, 11:30, Acts 5 and 1 John 5:16 then.

[QOUTE] The reference cannot be to physical death.

It sure can't be eternal death, since all who have believed HAVE eternal LIFE and shall never perish.

Again, go ahead and ignore the clear message of 1 Cor 5:5.

How come you seem clueless as to the fact that Satan is very capable of making one's physical death quite painful and miserable.

When Paul said "to die is gain" he was obviously referring to the result of being "face to face" with Christ in heaven. Which is gain.

But I'm talking about God's discipline, which includes a painful and possibly slow death at the hands of the devil. Which you seem to want to ignore or change the subject.

As to your presumption that Satan wants believers to be in hell with him is nonsense.

While you don't believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life never perishing, Satan has no such presumptions about it.

He knows the ONLY TIME he can cause a believer to suffer is NOW, while the believer is on earth.

He knows that once the person dies, he has NO MORE effect on them.

Unlike your view, he does believe what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

So he is more than eager to get his hands on any believer for the purpose of suffering, up to and including death.

Not only 1 Cor 5:5 makes this point, but so does 1 Tim 1:19.[/QUOTE]
Well we agree about what Paul meant about death being gain.

But the struggle, the battle, is not over flesh and blood. Once more in a letter addressed to Christians we are warned as such:
Ephesians 6:10-13

112358 · Jun 4, 2018

112358 said:
Well we agree about what Paul meant about death being gain.

But the struggle, the battle, is not over flesh and blood. Once more in a letter addressed to Christians we are warned as such:
Ephesians 6:10-13

Sorry this what I meant to say.

justbyfaith · Jun 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of theLORD are true and righteous altogether.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: becausefear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
God wants us to fear Him, not be afraid of Him.
Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

We should fear God, that is be in awe of Him.
We should have complete respect for Him and His Word. Life will be much easier for us if we do this.
But to be afraid of Him because He might punish us, that type of fear has torment and is an ungodly fear.
That is the type of fear a child of wrath should have.

Deuteronomy 6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
This is how Jesus translated this verse.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The ones that the devil gets would be fallen soldiers.
Fallen soldiers do not get left behind.
Maybe an irresponsible military unit might leave the fallen soldiers behind. But our Captain would not.
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Take it up in the other thread:

Eternal Security based on a holy walk and the fear of falling away.

justbyfaith · Jun 4, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What does it matter what uneducated people think? I'm only taking about those to whom Jesus GIVEs eternal life. They shall never perish, which is eternal security.

Many religious people from many religions think they will go to heaven. But how does that relate to John 10:28? Not at all. So your statement here is irrelevant. Possibly a smokescreen.

He "may"? No, He already HAS. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 10:28, 11:25-27, Eph 2:8,9.

I already refuted your notions about that passage. It's not about losing salvation at all, if you actually consider the whole parable and its explanation.

The "good seed" refer to believers and "weeds" refer to unbelievers. Obviously.

See? You keep forcing conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Yet, Jesus did no such thing in John 10:28. This verse continues to refute your notions.

Do you even understand what is meant by "the will of God" here? Also found in Matt 7:21.

John 6:40 answers this question of what "the will of God" refers to.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

So "the will of God" is about having eternal life.

And I've explained this thoroughly as well. To "abide" is about fellowship and the filling of the Holy Spirit. So when the believer is filled with the Spirit, he CANNOT sin. Simple as that.

Wow. Where to start?

1. Please support your notion that "abiding in salvation" is even biblical.
2. Please support from Scripture that personal actions/behaviors are related in any way to either obtaining or losing salvation.
3. Please support from Scripture that the one who is born of God is guaranteed to make all these changes that you presume?

I know better, because of the clear evidence from Scripture about all the warnings regarding behavior.

If any of this were true, there would be no need for ANY warning or admonition for proper behavior for believers. It would be irrelevant.

But the fact that there are many such verses, your presumptions are proven false.

Consider this evidence from Scripture:

Worthy

Eph 4:1- As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Phil 1:27- Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 1:11 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith

Holy

Rom 12:1 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship

1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours:

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless

Col 1:22 - But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones

1 Thess 4:4 - that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable

1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life

2 Tim 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of tim

2 Tim 2:21 - If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Titus 1:8 - Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined

Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord

1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

Blameless

1 Cor 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

Phil 1:10 - so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ

Phil 2:14-15 - Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him

Why would any of these verses be in Scripture if what you've just said was true?

Just refute all these verses about commands for holiness, blamelessness, and worthiness. lol.

So this is a refutation???? Really???

Please answer my question about why all these verses about being holy, blameless asnd worthy are given to believers, if those who have believed WILL be this way?

That was the subject of a post I had responded to.

I already did answer the question. Unfortunately for you, the answer is in spiritual words that you are incapable of understanding (1 Corinthians 2:13-14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27). But maybe if you think and pray about what was said, you just might get the understanding you need. Here it is again:

The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). All of the verses that tell us what we are to do and be as Christians fall under the category of Old and New Testament law. Once we come to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25) because we have learned all that the schoolmaster had to teach us. As born again believers, we obey the leadings and guidings of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13-14), and as we do this, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). We bear the fruit of the Spirit, and against this there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). Once we are born again, and have been given a new heart and a new spirit, God causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13). We retain all the lessons taught us by our schoolmaster and are obedient to those lessons through the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

justbyfaith · Jun 4, 2018

FG2: I explained the parable of the weeds and good seed in Matt 13.
justbyfaith said: ↑
So I think you must agree then, that those who are given eternal life do not work or do iniquity, to the very end of their lives.
FG2: Why would you think that? And the parable of the weeds doesn't even include what you're inserting here.

jbf: Because if they begin to believe, and then turn back to iniquity, will they be cast into the furnace of fire or not? =/QUOTE]
FG2: I explained the parable, verse by verse. If you disagree with anything I explained, go back to that post, and discuss anything you disagreed with.

jbf: If not, then Matthew 13:41-42 is nullified. If so, then they believed for a while and their eternal fate was the lake of fire. And that doesn't sound like salvation to me. It sounds like perishing.
FG2: There wasn't anything about works in the parable. Go back and read it.

jbf: Somehow I knew you were going to focus on that and ignore the other aspect of my argument. Both above and below you have no answer to the understanding that God says, Take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. This indicates that departing from God is possible.
FG2: What it doesn't mean is to "jump out of His hand", per John 10:28.

One "departs the living God" by ceasing to believe. Nothing more.

jbf: And the only way to depart from God is to depart from faith in Jesus Christ.
FG2: yes.

jbf: Faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven (John 14:6). Therefore if I depart from faith in Jesus, I will not go to heaven.
FG2: The error here is to assume one's faith is what saves. That would be in error.

One is saved by God Himself. He saves those who believe. And from THAT MOMENT, there is no reverting back to an unsaved state. So quit presuming such.

jbf: I already knew what your position was on this, but for the sake of those who would believe the truth on the subject, that to be a partaker of Christ means that I am saved, I gave the plain meaning of the text, that to be a partaker of Christ means salvation.
FG2: I showed otherwise. Take it up with some Greek lexicon.

jbf:If I am not in Christ, that is, not a partaker of Christ, then I am not in the body of Christ and therefore not saved.
FG2: This is presumption.

jbf: Not in our own ability to endure. In God's ability to keep us; and yes, we must be willing for Him to keep us. 1 Peter 1:5-7, 1 John 5:18.
FG2: That's it. Just throw in random verses, esp ones that have no relevance to your claims.

But, you've just claimed that God is dependent upon our will. That is pure nonsense.

jbf: So what you are saying is that you do not have a heart that is open to what the Holy Spirit might say through any one of us, neither a teachable spirit.
FG2: No, I'm not saying that at all. Those who espouse views that are in direct conflict with Scripture are NOT being influenced at all by the Holy Spirit.

In fact, such behavior indicates that the believer who espouses OSNAS is grieving the Holy Spirit.

jbf: No matter, we will continue to contend for the faith here, if we cannot ever convince you of the truth, at least we will be able to keep you from deceiving other people with your teaching of greasy grace ("sloppy agape"), wherein you turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:3-4).
FG2: No matter how you express your ad hominem, the truth is on my side, because I have accepted exactly what Scripture says. Unlike your side, who doesn't believe that all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. In spite of the fact that Jesus said it plainly.

jbf: That's interesting that you would say that and then not include in the quoting of me in your post the scriptural backup that I gave. This indicates a dishonesty in your position and practice
FG2: More nonsense. You've never quoted Scripture that supports your presumptions.

jbf: and Jesus said of course that we will know who is true and who is false by the fruit that they bear. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit; and yet bad fruit (dishonest dealings) is what you are bearing.
FG2: I bear the truth: recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Whoever believes in Christ HAVE (as in possess) eternal life. Therefore, one is eternally secure the MOMENT they believe.

jbf: The problem is that you think you have eternal life and will never perish even if you depart from faith in Jesus Christ and begin again to work and do iniquity.
FG2: I believe what Jesus said; that recipients of eternal life, given WHEN they believe, shall never perish.

jbf: The Bible does not teach this, in fact, it teaches the opposite, as I have already shown you in times past.
FG2: Lack of discernment misses the point that the Bible WANTS all believers to live lives of holiness, blamelessness and worthiness. But lack thereof doesn't result in loss of salvation.

jbf: But because you have an unteachable spirit, you will probably never understand the truth
FG2: lol. After giving John 10:28 these countless times, and all the resistance to what it plainly says, the unteachable ones are those in the OSNAS crowd.

They directly oppose what Jesus said.

jbf: and will very likely perish in the end; because you put your trust in a single verse rather than in Jesus Himself and in everything He said.
FG2: Well, at least you're honest enough to admit that a "single verse" isn't enough for you.

FG2: Every verse is enough for me. And there are no verses that say any recipients of eternal life can perish.

That's not my opinion. That's from Jesus Himself.
You have no clue.

jbf: That's what you think.
FG2: I think what the Bible teaches plainly.

The teaching in the Bible is said to be the "truth/doctrine which is according to godliness." (1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1)

Believe-for-a-moment-theology is not according to godliness. It is according to iniquity. (and therefore it is not what the Holy Spirit and the authors intended when they wrote the Bible, and is not the teaching of the Bible. The Bible tells us that in the last days people will depart from the faith, paying attention to doctrines of devils--even doctrines they develop from misinterpreting the Bible itself).

According to believe-for-a-moment-theology, a man can depart from faith in Jesus Christ, and return to a life of iniquity, and still be saved. It in effect turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and denies the holy nature of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4.

*****link*****
Those who fall away are still saved?
*****link*****

Doug Melven · Jun 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). All of the verses that tell us what we are to do and be as Christians fall under the category of Old and New Testament law. Once we come to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25) because we have learned all that the schoolmaster had to teach us. As born again believers, we obey the leadings and guidings of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13-14), and as we do this, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). We bear the fruit of the Spirit, and against this there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). Once we are born again, and have been given a new heart and a new spirit, God causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13). We retain all the lessons taught us by our schoolmaster and are obedient to those lessons through the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the "schoolmaster" taught us how to live according to Galatians 3.
The law taught us we were sinners in need of Christ as Savior.

justbyfaith said:
Believe-for-a-moment-theology is not according to godliness. It is according to iniquity. (and therefore it is not what the Holy Spirit and the authors intended when they wrote the Bible, and is not the teaching of the Bible. The Bible tells us that in the last days people will depart from the faith, paying attention to doctrines of devils--even doctrines they develop from misinterpreting the Bible itself).

We believe to be born-again. Which means to be made alive whereas we were dead.
Believing to be born-again is what the Bible teaches. See John 3
Now that we are born-again we are created to do good works, whereas before no matter what we did could not be considered righteous.
We are not sinners because we sin, but because of who our father was. John 8:44
Now we are righteous, not because of what we do, but because of Who our Father is. He made us righteous so now we can live righteously. 1 John 3:6-9

justbyfaith · Jun 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the "schoolmaster" taught us how to live according to Galatians 3.
The law taught us we were sinners in need of Christ as Savior.

We believe to be born-again. Which means to be made alive whereas we were dead.
Believing to be born-again is what the Bible teaches. See John 3
Now that we are born-again we are created to do good works, whereas before no matter what we did could not be considered righteous.
We are not sinners because we sin, but because of who our father was. John 8:44
Now we are righteous, not because of what we do, but because of Who our Father is. He made us righteous so now we can live righteously. 1 John 3:6-9

So you're saying that a good schoolmaster will give their student F's until they understand that they are an utter failure, and then they are trained and ready to operate as and be a son in the family.

We may not be righteous because of what we do, but we do what we do (righteously) because we are righteous. 1 John 3:7.

Doug Melven · Jun 4, 2018

justbyfaith said:
So you're saying that a good schoolmaster will give their student F's until they understand that they are an utter failure, and then they are trained and ready to operate as and be a son in the family.

3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Sin had separated us from God. Isaiah 59:2
But people thought they were righteous before God.
So God gave the law to expose sin. Galatians 3:19
The law taught us we were sinners before God and in need of a Savior.
This statement is correct.

justbyfaith said:
So you're saying that a good schoolmaster will give their student F's until they understand that they are an utter failure

After all, that was the purpose of the law.

justbyfaith · Jun 5, 2018

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. The law does reveal to us that we are sinners; and that is one of its primary purposes (Romans 3:20).

However, I would ask: what is the nature of a schoolmaster?

Does a schoolmaster teach the student how to succeed in life? or is his only purpose to show the student that he cannot succeed without his father?

Is it the purpose of the schoolmaster that he teach the student what he needs to know in order to grow up? Or does he give the student impossible tests that he cannot pass so that he can give him an "F" in the end and bring him to utter discouragement, so that he never matures but has to rely on his father all of his days?

Now I do believe that the only way that we can even get an "A" in the classroom is to have Jesus' A's applied to our report card. This is twofold: 1) His perfect life as He lived it is applied to ours in the substitution, so that when God looks at us, he does not see our performance but the performance of Jesus as He lived and died a perfect life. 2) Galatians 2:20 tells us that Jesus lives His life in us and through us so that as He lives His perfect life in us and through us, we earn His A's, yet not us but Christ who lives in us.

So then, B.C., we can only get F's on our report card, while we must at the same time be learning the material so that when Jesus comes to live in us we can earn His A's.

It is written that in the new covenant God will write His laws in our hearts and in our minds. I believe He does this partially by showing us the details of His requirement in the law while the law is still our schoolmaster. When we get an F on our assignment, our paper comes back with all of the check marks in red that show us where and how we got it wrong.

So when we finally get the power to earn A's (see Acts of the Apostles 1:8), we know what the answers are because He showed us when we got them wrong that we were wrong in answering that way. When the love of God gets shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost, we understand what the details are of how we should live that love out in our lives, because God showed us the details with all of those check marks.

justbyfaith · Jun 5, 2018

Then there is the question of whether one can truly graduate from the classroom if all he gets are F's. At some point he is going to have to get a good grade in the classroom, if he is going to graduate.

The moment we come to the end of ourselves and realize we can't do it on our own, and let Jesus do our homework and take our test for us, we will surely get an A. The moment faith comes we graduate from the classroom with that 'A' of faith, and are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Actually I think we still have to do our own homework if we are going to learn anything. But it is as Jesus living in us does our homework as we apply the effort that we will do well enough to graduate; because we are learning the material that God has given us to learn.

Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

justified sinner

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

justified sinner

justified sinner

justified sinner

Well-Known Member

justified sinner

Well-Known Member

justified sinner

justified sinner

Similar threads