Simon the Sorcerer. Saved?

Aldebaran

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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), but did not have the Holy Spirit. But then again, nobody there who believed had the Holy Spirit either (verses 15-16). Later, Simon was told that his "heart was not right before God" when he thought he could buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit to people.

This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.
 

brinny

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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), but did not have the Holy Spirit. But then again, nobody there who believed had the Holy Spirit either (verses 15-16). Later, Simon was told that his "heart was not right before God" when he thought he could buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit to people.

This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.

He was a sorcerer. He wanted more "powers" and tricks" to KEEP being a sorcerer, in order to continue to deceive the people.

That's wicked and evil and abhorrent to God.

Amen?
 
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Aldebaran

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He was a sorcerer. He wanted more "powers" and tricks" to KEEP being a sorcerer, in order to continue to deceive the people.

That's wicked and evil and abhorrent to God.

Amen?

Well, I'm not sure. Not sure where it was, but I think Paul said in one of his letters that there were people who were out preaching the gospel in order to somehow hurt Paul. Maybe by trying to take the spotlight off of him. Paul said that whether it's for that reason or a good reason (I'm paraphrasing here), he's still glad the gospel is being preached.

But even if Simon was just wanting another power to add to his bag of tricks, he was still a believer, according to what is written about him. Do you think he was saved?

BTW, we still have magicians that do tricks and amaze people as Simon did. Are they seen by God as wicked because they are deceiving people?
 
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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), but did not have the Holy Spirit. But then again, nobody there who believed had the Holy Spirit either (verses 15-16). Later, Simon was told that his "heart was not right before God" when he thought he could buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit to people.

This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.
Another person's salvation is not for us to know, for who knows the mind of God & how he will judge.
 
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brinny

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Well, I'm not sure. Not sure where it was, but I think Paul said in one of his letters that there were people who were out preaching the gospel in order to somehow hurt Paul. Maybe by trying to take the spotlight off of him. Paul said that whether it's for that reason or a good reason (I'm paraphrasing here), he's still glad the gospel is being preached.

But even if Simon was just wanting another power to add to his bag of tricks, he was still a believer, according to what is written about him. Do you think he was saved?

BTW, we still have magicians that do tricks and amaze people as Simon did. Are they seen by God as wicked because they are deceiving people?

No. He was abhorrent to God.

Where is it written that he was a believer?

Where is it written that he repented?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), but did not have the Holy Spirit. But then again, nobody there who believed had the Holy Spirit either (verses 15-16). Later, Simon was told that his "heart was not right before God" when he thought he could buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit to people.

This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.
Acts 8:9-24 is a rather eye-opening event.

The greek word #3096 used in vs 9 is only used this one time.
It comes from #3097 and there are a few various forms of that word and is probably where we get the word "magic" from.
[Also #5531 is another word used for sorcery/magic, and where we get "pharmacy" from, interesting
5331. pharmakeia far-mak-i'-ah from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft
.]

The first 3 letters are "mag", [which coincidentally is in "magog"]

9 Now a certain man named Simon had formerly been practicing sorcery/magic/mageuwn<3096> in the city and amazing the people of Samaria, declaring himself to be someone great,

Using a concordance we can see where and how that word is used in other places in the NT

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

3095. mageia mag-i'-ah from 3096; "magic":--sorcery.
3096. mageuo mag-yoo'-o from 3097; to practice magic:--use sorcery.
3097. magos mag'-os of foreign origin (7248); a Magian, i.e. Oriental scientist; by implication, a magician:--sorcerer, wise man.
3098. magog mag-ogue' of Hebrew origin (4031); Magog, a foreign nation, i.e. (figuratively) an Antichristian party:--Magog

#3095 is also used only 1 time:

Acts 8:11
Now they were giving heed to him because for a long time he had amazed them with the magic-arts/sorceries/mageiaiV<3095>.

Another form is #3097 which is used 5 times.
3 of those concerning the 3 Maji in Matt 2

Matt 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise-men/Magi/magoi<3097> from the east to Jerusalem,
 
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Acts2:38

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This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

I assume you are talking about this part here:
Acts 8:14-16

In this case, you get your key scripture after in verses 17 and following.

The Jews in Acts 2, when Peter preached and they got baptized, didn't receive miraculous gifts, like what happened to Peter in Acts 2 among others. The Jews also desired to have these gifts. They didn't want the gifts for profit like Simon, otherwise they would have been rebuked just the same. Notice that once "they laid hands", Simon saw that they too got "powers" aka miraculous gifts.


Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.

Simon was scolded because Simon knew better. Hence Simon's apology of a sorts in verse 24. Simon had obviously seen Philip and heard the preachings/teachings otherwise he would not have believed and followed Philip around seeing the wonders and such, verse 12-13 and 18-19.

Again, the people in Jerusalem likely didn't do it for personal gain, otherwise Philip would have scolded them as well. Simon wanted those gifts for personal gain, but was confronted, and then seemingly was sorry for it.
"24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me."

Jerusalem people - Not for monetary profit or personal gain therefore Philip (guided by the Holy Spirit) grants their request.

Simon - Believed, but then was tempted to gain powers for personal gain/profit instead of what the miraculous gifts were intended for, the testimony of Jesus the Christ and the gospel He preached John 20:30-31
 
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Halbhh

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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), but did not have the Holy Spirit. But then again, nobody there who believed had the Holy Spirit either (verses 15-16). Later, Simon was told that his "heart was not right before God" when he thought he could buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit to people.

This brings up a few questions in my mind. First, were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?

Second, why were they so hard on Simon? Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. (Acts 8:20-22). Couldn't they have just explained it to him? What was so wicked about thinking he could buy that ability? He didn't know! So again, was he saved? He was described as a believer, after all.

We are doing some guessing, since after the crucial request to be prayed for, perhaps, maybe, he was indeed turned (we aren't told). But his heart was not right when he wanted to purchase the spirit of course, so we can surmise he hadn't yet truly been born again. One thing though that may explain the intense situation is that this is a very special time with big miracles happening, great signs -- for those who either directly saw Christ, or directly saw miracles performed by the apostles, is that they have very direct evidence and thus more than we do here in this day, first hand, so that they would have less excuse!

For instance, consider the towns that rejected Christ Himself in person:

"20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.e For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

So for Simon the magician, having seen miracles first hand, there is a more pronounced moment of choice or greater accountability than for someone having seen no miracles.

But we aren't told what happened with him later. In the fun TV version that came out a year or 2 back, John intervenes to get Peter to help pray for Simon, and Peter (in the imagined version) then does pray for Simon.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I came across something interesting in Acts 8:9--24. It's about a guy named Simon who was a magician or sorcerer (depending on the bible version) that was described as a believer of the Gospel (verse 13), ...........
Seems the Apostles had their hands full with characters like Simon.

Such as this event in Acts 13 concerning Bar-Jesus/Elymas.

Acts 13:
4 Then Barnabas and Saul, sent forth by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus. 5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. And John was with them as their helper.

6 They traveled through the whole island as far as Paphos, where they found a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, 7 an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus.
The proconsul, a man of intelligence, summoned Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.
8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith.

9 Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas 10 and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?
11 Now look, the hand of the Lord is against you, and for a time you will be blind and unable to see the light of the sun.
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.

12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was astonished at the teaching about the Lord.

There was a lot of that going on around Jerusalem and Judea after the ascension of Jesus, as shown in the writings of Josephus:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction Of JERUSALEM
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:


"Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled ?"
Such were the questions of the disciples, in answer to which our LORD condescended to give them a particular account of the several important events that would precede, as well as of the prognostics which would announce, the approaching desolations ; including suitable directions for the regulation of their conduct under the various trials to which they were to be exposed. He commences with a caution :
"Take heed," says be, "that no man deceive you ; for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many."

The necessity for this friendly warning soon appeared ; for within one year after our Lord's ascension, rose Dositheus the Samaritan, who had the boldness to assert that he was the Messiah, of whom Moses prophesied ;
while his disciple Simon Magus deluded multitudes into a belief that he, himself, was the " GREAT POWER OF GOD."

About three years afterwards another Samaritan impostor appeared, and declared that he would shew the people the sacred utensils, said to have been deposited by Moses, in mount Gerizim.
Induced by an idea that the Messiah, their great deliverer, was now come, an armed multitude assembled under him, but Pilate speedily defeated them, and slew their chief.

While Cuspius Fadus was procurator in Judea, another deceiver arose, whose name was Theudas. [4] This man actually succeeded s O far as to persuade a very great multitude to take their effects and follow him to Jordan, assuring them, that the river would divide at his command. Fadus, however, pursued their with a troop of horse, and slew many of them, and among the rest the impostor himself, whose head was cut off and carried to Jerusalem.

Under the government of Felix, deceivers rose up daily in Judea, and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should there behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the ALMIGHTY. Of these Felix, from time to time, apprehended many, and put them to death.
About this period (A.D. 55,) arose Felix the celebrated Egyptian impostor, who collected thirty-thousand followers, and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling, them that from thence they should see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command, as, a prelude to the capture of the Roman garrison, and to their obtaining the sovereignty of the city. The Roman governor, however, apprehending this to be the beginning of revolt, immediately attacked them, slew four hundred of them, and dispersed the rest ; but the Egyptian effected his escape.

In the time of Porcius Festus (A.D.60,) another distinguished impostor seduced the people, by promising them deliverance from the Roman yoke, if they would follow him into the wilderness ; but Festus sent out an armed force which speedily destroyed both the deceiver and his followers.
In short, impostors, to a divine commission, continually and fatally deceived the people, and at once justified the caution, and fulfilled the prediction of our LORD................

Revelation 9:21
Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, G5331 nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 18
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries G5331 were all nations deceived.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I just remembered that those words are used back in the OT, notably when Moses confronted Pharaoh [also note Genesis 41:8, 14 when Joseph was called to interpret a dream for Pharoah, and Exodus 8:7 concerning the frogs ]

Exodus 7:
11 But Pharaoh called the wise-men/chakam<2450> and sorcerers/kashaph<3784> and magicians/chartom<2748> of Egypt, and they also did the same things by their magic-arts/lahat<3858>.
12 Each one threw down his staff, and it became a serpent. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up the other staffs.

22 Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers:
and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did in like manner with their enchantments.

2450 chakam khaw-kawm' from 2449; wise, (i.e. intelligent, skilful or artful):--cunning (man), subtil, ((un-)), wise((hearted), man).
3784 kashaph kaw-shaf' a primitive root; properly, to whisper a spell, i.e. to inchant or practise magic:--sorcerer, (use) witch(-craft).
2748 chartom khar-tome' from the same as 2747; a horoscopist (as drawing magical lines or circles):--magician.
3858 lahat lah'-hat from 3857; a blaze; also (from the idea of enwrapping) magic (as covert):--flaming, enchantment.

Egypt and Moses are both mentioned in Revelation:

Reve 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[fn] Lord was crucified.

Reve 15:3
They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:............
[Exo 15:1 Then Moses and the children of Israel sang this song to the LORD, and spoke, saying:..........]
 
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Simon wasn't the only one who practiced sorcery

ACts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

The above scripture depicts people repenting and burning their "magical" books. It does give some idea of what times were like back then. Israel had adopted the customs of Pagan religions from the surrounding nations over many years. The Jewish religious institutions seem to be a mix of hard liners bent on rules and regulations with some traditions thrown in. Quite a mix. The nice thing about the above scripture is that the disciples ministry seemed quite effective in bringing about a change - even if only for the short term.

Many in society are indifferent these days and I doubt there is a mass burning of inappropriate contentography books, Get rich books, Me ME ME books, etc. I had a look in a local well known book store and there was just one small shelf for Christian books. the rest of the shop ( which was pretty large ) was a variety of all sorts of books and more coverage was given to New Age teachings and New Spirituality than the pitiful display of Christian books.
 
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Halbhh

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Simon wasn't the only one who practiced sorcery

ACts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

The above scripture depicts people repenting and burning their "magical" books. It does give some idea of what times were like back then. Israel had adopted the customs of Pagan religions from the surrounding nations over many years. The Jewish religious institutions seem to be a mix of hard liners bent on rules and regulations with some traditions thrown in. Quite a mix. The nice thing about the above scripture is that the disciples ministry seemed quite effective in bringing about a change - even if only for the short term.

Many in society are indifferent these days and I doubt there is a mass burning of inappropriate contentography books, Get rich books, Me ME ME books, etc. I had a look in a local well known book store and there was just one small shelf for Christian books. the rest of the shop ( which was pretty large ) was a variety of all sorts of books and more coverage was given to New Age teachings and New Spirituality than the pitiful display of Christian books.

Good point. There are a lot of new age type books. One thing though about the Christian section of a typical bookstore is how can they compete with the extensive Christian bookstores which are in most places, commonplace, and Christians often go to those Christian bookstores (or online of course).
 
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Aldebaran

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No. He was abhorrent to God.

Where is it written that he was a believer?

As I pointed out in post #1, chapter 8, verse 13.
 
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brinny

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As I pointed out in post #1, chapter 8, verse 13.

From my post, #5, that you quoted me from, that you snipped off:
Where is it written that he repented?

Where is it written that Simon the Sorcerer repented?
 
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Another person's salvation is not for us to know, for who knows the mind of God & how he will judge.

The reason I ask is because we are told that everyone who believes is saved, and yet Simon believed and it starts to look questionable whether he was saved or not. In order to gain understanding about it, one must ask for the insight of others.
 
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Aldebaran

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From my post, #5, that you quoted me from, that you snipped off:


Where is it written that Simon the Sorcerer repented?

It doesn't, but it does say he believed.
 
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brinny

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Aldebaran

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We are doing some guessing, since after the crucial request to be prayed for, perhaps, maybe, he was indeed turned (we aren't told). But his heart was not right when he wanted to purchase the spirit of course, so we can surmise he hadn't yet truly been born again. One thing though that may explain the intense situation is that this is a very special time with big miracles happening, great signs -- for those who either directly saw Christ, or directly saw miracles performed by the apostles, is that they have very direct evidence and thus more than we do here in this day, first hand, so that they would have less excuse!

For instance, consider the towns that rejected Christ Himself in person:

"20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.e For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

So for Simon the magician, having seen miracles first hand, there is a more pronounced moment of choice or greater accountability than for someone having seen no miracles.

But we aren't told what happened with him later. In the fun TV version that came out a year or 2 back, John intervenes to get Peter to help pray for Simon, and Peter (in the imagined version) then does pray for Simon.

I remember that! It was the first of it's kind that took scripture and laid it out in a way that people day could relate to.
 
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So does Satan and all his demons, minions, and agents.

Good point.

I guess the main concern I have is with the second part I was asking about:

Were any of those people saved and "sealed for the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.) if they didn't even have the Holy Spirit yet?
 
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