Why doesn't God just tell us which denomination is right?
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Hebrews 8:6-12 claims He gave all the commandments that we find at sinai.
In Matthew 19:17 Jesus said that if you want to go to heaven "keep the Commandments" -- and then in that same chapter He is asked "which ones?"
What answer do you see Jesus giving in Matthew 19?
Did He include "Do not take God's name in vain" and "Love God with all your heart"? in his answer that quoted right out of the Ten Commandments?
(How about when Paul quotes that same list of commandments in Romans 13?)
Do you think that is because Jesus wanted people to take God's name in vain from then on?
It is my stated position above that "Do not take God's name in vain" AND "Love God with all your heart" ALSO matter and that the list Christ quoted from the TEN - was not "exhaustive"
But it shows that "the teaching of Jesus" was not "ignore the Ten Commandments" which addresses your comment at the top of this post.
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No ... that's not what that passage says ...
It is in fact there - when you "read the details".
Hebrews 8
6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they did not continue in My covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord.
Your citation of Scripture makes my point that the New Covenant was DIFFERENT from the Old Covenant (i.e. it was a BETTER Covenant).
And there are commands (which I have cited - in post #123) which are part of the New Covenant, but not the Old. The passage definitely does not say that ALL of the New Covenant commandments ... are also found in the Old Covenant. Particularly as Jesus, Himself, gives us a NEW commandment in John 15:34.
I never stated that the "teaching of Jesus" was to "ignore the Ten Commandments". My position would be that one must ALSO embrace New Testament teaching ...
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The7thColporteur
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God did. It is in His word. He gave us the identifying markers of His people, and what they would teach, for instance [a small sampling]:
Marker [1]:
Revelation 14:12 KJB - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Any theology that teaches that the Ten Commandments of God [as explicitly written in Exodus 20:1-17 KJB] are not to be kept by the Christian, is not of God, but serves instead the "mystery of iniquity [sin; 1 John 3:4 KJB]".
Marker [2]:
John 13:14 KJB - If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Any theology/system that does not practice this clear command of Jesus, amongst all of its members, has not the whole truth.
Marker [3]:
Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The church of God is persecuted for righteousness sake, and was driven into near obscurity for 1,260 years, see Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2,3, 12:6,14, 13:5. She does not persecute, but is instead persecuted. She is as her Master.
Marker [4]:
Revelation 14:6 KJB - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
She has a message from God, that is for the whole world, and she will be found in all the world, proclaiming this message. It is not merely in a few isolated areas, or closed up in some private individuals homes, or hid in a corner.
Marker [5]:
1 Corinthians 12:28 KJB - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Ephesians 4:11 KJB - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 KJB - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 KJB - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 KJB - That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Revelation 19:10 KJB - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Ephesians 4:11 KJB - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Ephesians 4:12 KJB - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 KJB - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephesians 4:14 KJB - That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Revelation 19:10 KJB - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The church of God has all of the gifts within in, and thus any system of theology which claims that the gifts are no longer in the church, is not of God, and has not the Holy Ghost. They will have the gift and spirit of prophecy.
Marker [6]:
John 14:1 KJB - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 KJB - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Acts 1:11 KJB - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
John 14:2 KJB - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 KJB - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 KJB - And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Acts 1:11 KJB - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The church of God awaits the actual second coming/Advent of Jesus Christ, the very same Jesus who ascended into the Heavens from the Mount of Olivet.
Marker [7]:
Exodus 20:8 KJB - Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exodus 20:9 KJB - Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exodus 20:10 KJB - But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exodus 20:11 KJB - For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The people of God would Honour God by remembering to keep Holy His 7th day, His Sabbath. Any system of theology which ignores/replaces/does away with/alters this command of God, has forgotten their Creator/Redeemer in this.
Marker [8]:
Luke 24:39 KJB - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus was resurrected physically, and glorified, and has real flesh and real bones. Any system of theology which denies the actual resurrection of Jesus, and/or the resurrections in general [of the Just and Unjust], is not of God.
Marker [9]:
Romans 1:3 KJB - Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Romans 8:3 KJB - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Hebrews 2:14 KJB - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 KJB - And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
1 John 4:2 KJB - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 KJB - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 KJB - For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
The body of Christ would always witness to the fact that Jesus came in the likness of sinful flesh, the same flesh that all men have since Adam, the first, fell. Any system of theology which teaches that Jesus came in flesh before the fall of mankind, is of antiChrist.Romans 8:3 KJB - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Hebrews 2:14 KJB - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 KJB - And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
1 John 4:2 KJB - Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 KJB - And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 KJB - For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Marker [10]:
John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:15 KJB - John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:30 KJB - This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:15 KJB - John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:30 KJB - This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 8:58 KJB - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The people of God would teach that Jesus is God [not the person/being of the Father, neither the person/being of the Holy Ghost, but rather the person/being of the Son of the Father], Deity and always existed with the Father from eternity past as I AM. Any system of theology which teaches that Jesus is not Deity/God [as noted], has no real concept or understanding of the plan of redemption, or of the price that was paid.
Marker [11]:
Acts 2:29 KJB - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Genesis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJB - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJB - Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJB - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
The bride of Christ, proclaims the sweet truth that those who die, return to dust, and sleep in the dust, and await their respective reusrrection, and while as dust they know not anything, and go no where. Any system of theology which teaches contrary to this, teaches spiritualism, as the pagan religions do.Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Genesis 3:19 KJB - In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJB - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJB - Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJB - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Marker [12]:
John 3:23 KJB - And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Acts 8:35 KJB - Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 KJB - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 KJB - And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 KJB - And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39 KJB - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Those who are in Christ Jesus, proclaim Baptism by full immersion in much water, for those who are instructed about Jesus, and thus confess and believe with all their heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. All other practices which are not of this description, are not rightly baptism [sprinkling [aspersion], pouring [infusion], infant, air-dry, glitter, etc, etc].Acts 8:35 KJB - Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Acts 8:36 KJB - And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Acts 8:37 KJB - And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Acts 8:38 KJB - And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Acts 8:39 KJB - And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
There are many more such markers, such as the Holy Ghost/Spirit, Tithe, Diet/Food [Clean/Unclean], etc, etc. - Link-http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn
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How can a church be the original church of God when it hasn't been around save for the last one-quarter of Christianity?
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The Gospel is right and true - and believed and upheld by all Christians. The church is all Christians, not the buildings we meet in, nor the denominations we hold to.
Denominations, as far as I can see, came about because people interpret Scripture in different ways and have different church practices - eg baptism, communion, wearing robes, the gender of clergy etc. But we believe the same Gospel.
If persecution came to our countries and Christians were being killed, they would likely ask "are you a Christian; yes or no?"
There would then either be a lot of dead Catholics, baptists, Methodists etc, or a lot of people going round feeling guilty that they had lied and denied their Saviour.
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Dorothy Mae
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Where did Jesus said the Jewish religion is right? Where did he same some Samaritans are saved in those words?
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1. "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4
2. "to the Jew FIRST and also to the gentile" Romans 2
3. " what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God" Romans 3
4. ALL the saints in Hebrews 11 are Jews starting with Abraham
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, Luke 24
2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Matt 23
2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,
Bible details matter
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Ask the Christian church of Paul's day that had only been around for about 20 years.
The Jewish magisterium flat out condemned it as a sect of Judaism that was in error.
But then "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so" Acts 17:11
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Dorothy Mae
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I have heard few make the claim of hearing God's voice clearly and fewer of them really do. So that is simply not true. Most Christians, for example, only know God speaking to them through the Bible. It is valid but not the only way. I have never heard anyone ever say that their denomination hears from God directly.
And actually it addresses the OP dead on. The OP asks why God doesn't tell us which denomination is right and the answer is, the real answer, is anyone who hears the voice of God would not be asking that question and those who ask that question do not hear the voice of God. That is why God is not telling anyone which is the right denomination. Answers it straight on.
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Dorothy Mae
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Which Jesus ended in 70 AD. Does not say Judiasm is the "right" religion.
Until 70 AD when Judiasm was destroyed forever.
You think that means the Judiasm is the right religion and the Christians are wrong? Really?
THere was no Judiasm before Jacob. I guess Enoch and Noah and Abraham had the wrong religion.
"I tell you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you (the Jews) and given to a people bearing the fruits thereof." So much for Judiasm being the "right" religion. Bible details matter.
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1. "Salvation is of the Jews" John 4
2. "to the Jew FIRST and also to the gentile" Romans 2
3. " what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God" Romans 3
4. ALL the saints in Hebrews 11 are Jews starting with Abraham
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. Luke 24
44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, Luke 24
2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Matt 23
2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe,
Bible details matter
Bait and switch much?
You asked "Where did Jesus say...the Jewish religion is right"
Clearly in Jesus' day he was not arguing for everyone to reject the Bible and become pagans. Rather in debate with "another religion" in John 4 - the Samaritan woman -- Jesus said "salvation is of the Jews" after saying "you worship what you do not know - WE (Jews) worship what WE (Jews) know... for salvation is of the JEWS" John 4
You did not ask "Where are we told that the Christian religion is wrong and that the Jews who reject Jesus as the Messiah are right".
God started the One true Nation-Church of Israel at Sinai. But they rejected the Messiah and in so-doing rejected their nation-church evangelist mission given to them by God.
Details matter.
The point is that this is one of many examples that you appear to reject - where God says "this is the right religion" in line with the remark made in the OP about that being a nice thing to have ... for those willing to listen to God.
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Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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Dorothy Mae
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Sorry I only have time to answer one bit. If you want, I can come back and answer your post properly. I have to go to work in 3 mintues.
God does not discuss religion and neither does Jesus. Paul mentions it, I believe. That is because they do not think in terms of religion, organized or private. They think in terms of relationship. That is why it is never mentioned. God does not chastise the Jews for leaving the proper or right religion to worship pagan gods. He chastises them for leaving Him, being a harlot, abandoning their LOVE FOR GOD, not a religion. There is no "right religion" in terms of join this organization and you will know the true religion. There is only "come and know God" and you will know the truth.
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MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
Please note that CF rules provide clear guidance
as to what post content is right (or not).
In particular I draw this rule to your attention:
- Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members,
are not Christian is not allowed.
MOD HAT OFF
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Read John 4 "you (Samaritans) worship what you do not know - WE (Jews) worship what we know, salvation is of the JEWs".
The point is clear Jesus entered into the "which religion is correct" debate with the Samaritan woman.
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Dorothy Mae
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No, he clearly did not. He did not mention religion at all. Salvation from the Jews meant from himself, not the religion. Join the Jews today and you are joining a group from which God has taken the Kingdom AWAY. There is no salvation in judiams and God completely whipped out the religion practiced by Moses and Israel never to be restored.
So I really do not know what you think the true religion of Judiasm is. God has left Judiasm. No man can come to God by rejecting Jesus and becoming a Jew. Judiasm has nothing to offer if a man wants to find God except the Messiah. There has risen no prophet in Israel since Jesus nor will any ever come again. God is not sending prophets to Israel as the prophets are in the church now. Sorry but Judiasm fulfilled its chosen mission and it is over. They are special same as any other group of people are special but they do not have the Spirit Of God dwelling in their midst as before. The Holy Spirit is now in the church which has been grafted into the family of Abraham.
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Dorothy Mae
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