Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Drought of the Heart said in post #2054:

I have seen some fall it is possible and like any relationship it takes work everyday.

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Great point.

Luke 9:23 And Jesus said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Matthew 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2055:

So the only issue of who won't perish is whether they were given the gift of eternal life.

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There are other issues (e.g. Luke 13:3).

A Christian can ultimately suffer eternal punishment for unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, cf. Matthew 25:41,46), a punishment even worse than death (Hebrews 10:28-29, cf. Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15), the same fate as a non-Christian (Luke 12:45-46), which is the failure to inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21), the death of the soul (James 5:20, Matthew 10:28).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2056:

How come you keep putting so many exceptions to verses that don't have them?

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Verses in one place must be taken together with other verses elsewhere (Isaiah 28:9-10). That's why Jesus was able to add an exception to the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2057:

I've asked for the biblical reason for this so-called "initial" vs "ultimate" salvation . . .

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It could the same reason that God creates us as babies and then waits for us to grow into adults, instead of creating all of us instantly as adults, like He did with Adam.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2057:

Why would God offer "initial salvation" by grace (no works) but demand that "ultimate salvation" be by works?

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God grants initial salvation by faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born apart from their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2057:

So, what is the purpose of this so-called "initial salvation" anyway?

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What is the purpose of a baby being born?

FreeGrace2 said in post #2057:

[Re: Acts 13:48b]
Are you not even aware that neither "chosen" nor "elected" is in that verse?

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Acts 13:48b means that in that situation, as many people as were elect (Romans 9:11), predestined to initial salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11), were granted God's miraculous gift of faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2). For in Acts 13:48, the original Greek word (G5021) translated as "ordained" includes the meaning of "to assign", and can be translated as "appointed" (Acts 28:23) and "determined" (Acts 15:2), which are the same ideas as "elected" (Romans 9:11) and "predestinated" (Ephesians 1:4-11).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2060:

Please read the actual context that mentions blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That was when Pharisees, who had actually seen with their own eyes the miracles of Jesus and attributed them to the devil.

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That's right.

Blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) means saying something against the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable even if it is repented from (Mark 3:29), unlike all other blasphemies (Mark 3:28), such as blaspheming Jesus Christ (saying something against Jesus), which is forgivable (like other sins) if it is repented from (Luke 12:10; cf. Luke 13:3, Hebrews 10:26-29).

An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29) would be to say that a miracle performed by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:28) was performed by an evil spirit (Mark 3:22,29-30). So it is possible for even a Christian to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, if, for example, he were to say that another Christian speaking in tongues today (by the Holy Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:10b-11) is the work of an evil spirit (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2066:

No, there is no "path" to eternal life. Eternal life is received by faith in Jesus Christ.

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And ultimately by obedience to Him (Hebrews 5:9), who is Himself the path, or way (John 14:6).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2076:

Once again, please provide the BEST verse that actually says that salvation can be lost.

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Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that salvation can be lost due to unrepentant sin.

EmSw said in post #2063:

It's because they do not enter the narrow gate, and walk the difficult way which leads to life.

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Jesus said:

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Matthew 7:14 . . . strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

While the original Greek word (G2346) translated as "narrow" in Matthew 7:14 can be used in the sense of "afflicted" (2 Corinthians 1:6), and can even be used to refer to "a person heavy-laden" (Middle Liddell Greek Lexicon), the Greek word does not have to refer to that sense every time that it is used. And so in Matthew 7:14, Jesus Christ does not have to be contradicting the fact that a Christian is not heavy-laden (Matthew 11:28-30). Instead, in Matthew 7:14, Jesus is using the Greek word (G2346) in the sense of "a narrow way" (Middle Liddell Greek Lexicon), which is parallel to the idea of the other original Greek word (G4728) translated as "strait" in Matthew 7:14, and which means in the context of the verse that the way to eternal life is narrow in that "few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14, cf. Matthew 22:14), while the way to destruction is broad in that many people find it (Matthew 7:13).

EmSw said in post #2063:

Jesus never said for us to 'get past the law'; He said to keep His commandments.

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Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 ¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

On Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so in order to be saved from hell, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Doug Melven said in post #2067:

Sins are not imputed to us on the basis of our being born-again by faith.

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But being born again does not take away our free will, which if we misuse can result in unrepentant sins being imputed to us (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #2067:

It has nothing to do with our works.

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Ultimate salvation has to do with our works (Romans 2:6-8).

Doug Melven said in post #2067:

No, he is talking about a crown, check out the Scripture if you don't believe me, 1 Corinthians 9:25

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The crown representing ultimate salvation (James 1:12).

Doug Melven said in post #2067:

He said the Holy Spirit was given as a guarantee, but you say there is no guarantee.

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God does not use the word or the idea of "guarantee" with regard to ultimate salvation, because there is free will.

Doug Melven said in post #2067:

Then Jesus wasted words when He said nobody would snatch us out of His Hand.

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John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

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Doug Melven said in post #2070:

For OSNAS adherents any discipline from God leads to loss of eternal life.

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No, for the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

EmSw said:

My friend, the path to eternal life is a journey. Have you not read the words of the Savior Himself?

Matthew 7
13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Do you not believe the way is a path we are to walk? Do you not believe this path leads to life? Why do only a few find it? It's because they do not enter the narrow gate, and walk the difficult way which leads to life.

Are these saving words of life from the Master not a part of your life? Do you not believe Him?



Are the words of the Savior a mystery to you? Jesus never said for us to 'get past the law'; He said to keep His commandments. Are His words foolishness to you?



Where does living in sin, and having it as a master, get you? Can you show us where those who do evil will enter Heaven? Perhaps you can show us where anyone continually practicing sin will have eternal life.



I showed you above that is is difficult. Why do you not believe Jesus? Easy doesn't cut it. Have you taken up your cross? What do you think your cross is? Is your cross just believing?

Do you not have trials and temptations with sin? Do you ovecome them or succumb to them?
Does not sin in your heart which leads away from the Light, grieve you?

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Why is a person condemned? Because the Light is come into the world, AND MEN LOVED DARKNESS rather than Light, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS WERE EVIL.

So how is it one can have faith alone and yet live in evil and not be condemned? If condemnation has to do with evil deeds, do you not think good deeds brings a person out of condemnation? Jesus said if your deeds are evil, you love darkness.

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As you say, you're talking about the path to eternal life. You're still on the journey. I've arrived. And contrary to your allegations no where have I stated that those who have eternal life live a lifestyle of sin. In fact they have lost the ability to do so, as it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Furthermore when one is born of God Jesus' commands are easy. "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,for everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:3,4 But as you've yet to come to believe you'll find it difficult.

You're still living under the curse of the law as Paul said to the Galatians, "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." ... "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3

And as he says in Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

And Ephesians 2 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

bcbsr said:

As you say, you're talking about the path to eternal life. You're still on the journey. I've arrived. And contrary to your allegations no where have I stated that those who have eternal life live a lifestyle of sin. In fact they have lost the ability to do so, as it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Furthermore when one is born of God Jesus' commands are easy. "This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,for everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:3,4 But as you've yet to come to believe you'll find it difficult.

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It's not me who says the 'the way (path) which leads to life'. It's the Savior Himself. And no one will find that way unless they first enter the narrow gate. How did you get eternal life another way? Are the Savior's words not for you?

I've never said those who have eternal life live a lifestyle of sin. And believe me, no matter who you are, you have not lost the ability to sin.

bcbsr said:

You're still living under the curse of the law as Paul said to the Galatians, "Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." ... "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."" Gal 3

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Sorry, I am not living under a curse, as much as you desire that for me. Jesus said ALL the law and prophets hang on two commandments. Do you know what they are?

bcbsr said:

And as he says in Romans 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

And Ephesians 2 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

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Now show me where Jesus' Gospel said anything about what you just wrote. If Paul is your savior, then you have every right to believe every word from his lips. But, if Jesus is your Savior, then you had better heed His words. You had better labor for the meat which endures unto eternal life. Yes, Jesus said to labor.

He also said, if you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments. As you quoted above, even John says to keep His commandments.

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,for everyone born of God overcomes the world. 1 John 5:3,4.

So, I guess the question for you is, do you love God? If not, then don't worry about His commandments. Keep living your version of eternal life. I'm sure it's as effective as what Jesus told us...not!

I am amazed how little people today care for what Jesus told us. If what He said agrees with them, then they quote them unceasingly. But if what He said does not agree with them, they walk around blindly, dismissing and rejecting what He said.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you dismiss and reject these words of truth from Jesus?

FreeGrace2 said:

Once again, please provide the BEST verse that actually says that salvation can be lost.

I won't hold my breath.

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Am I allowed more than one verse? How about a passage of just a few verses all found together. How about a passage that appears in red letters in many texts. That would be the words of Jesus Christ.

I'm usually hesitant when someone uses the straw man tactic of "show me one verse". It is one of the first signs of danger that we are dealing with an agenda other than getting to the truth. Usually single verses (as in this case with John 10:28) are lifted from their contextual meaning to serve the agenda. As I've said numerous times, Christ is using imagery which refers to His sheep. Those of His flock. He uses this imagery many times. Of course they can't be snatched from His hand! But elsewhere He also teaches about His sheep that go astray. Sheep that leave His flock. He teaches about the extent to which He will go to return His lost sheep to the flock. There would be no need to go to that extent if the straying sheep were not in danger of perishing. But you won't allow that discussion.

Here is the passage I would use if forced to point to one place: Mark 4:13-20
A very well known parable that legions of OSAS will say refers to non believers where the seed proves unfruitful. But Jesus interprets the parable for us. The seed is the Word. Anywhere the seed is sown, if it sprouts, produces nothing but a Christian, ever. If something other than a Christian sprouts, then something other than the Word was sown. God established this law in nature in the dawn of creation. It's why you don't sow corn if you expect to reap soy beans, and it's why he used the parable. Everyone can understand this because it is simple to understand.

When the Word is sown in the heart Satan snatches it away immediately in some. It never sprouts. It does not produce a Christian. These are the non believers. And they will perish in eternity.

Now, since the Word will never produce anything other than a Christian, we can see clearly that there are several things that can happen when the Word sprouts and produces a Christian. Some endure only for a short time. Some stumble. Some never bear fruit. The sprout, the Christian, is scorched, it withers away, it dies. These will also perish in eternity.

I am literally praying that you will not twist this plain and simple truth straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

Seek truth!

justbyfaith said:

Jesus will spue the lukewarm believer out of his mouth (Revelation 3:16). Scripture interprets scripture (1 Corinthians 2:13-14)

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It sure does! And there is no support for "spuing out of the mouth" to be equivalent to losing salvation. None whatsoever.

In fact, Jesus closed that supposed loop when He said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

This verse cannot be defeated by anything in the Bible. But good luck trying to prove that the Bible is internally contradicted. But not even luck can do that.

@FreeGrace2 wrote:

Once , please provide the BEST verse that actually says that salvation can be lost.

I won't hold my breath.

justbyfaith said:

@FreeGrace2 wrote:
I'll give two:

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We'll see.

1st, Matthew 13:41-42. Is it nullified when the person who does iniquity once repented and had faith but turned back to sin later?

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Let's examine the whole context here.

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.
38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,
39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

First note that even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand His parables and had to ask Him to explain them to them.

v.38 - the "good seed stands for the people of the kingdom". This is obviously a reference to those who have believed. Believers. Saved people.
"weeds are the people of the evil one (devil)" is an obvious reference to unsaved people, unbelievers.
v.40-42 describes the action of God's angels in separating believers (good seed) from unbelievers (weeds) and throwing the weeds (unbelievers) into the lake of fire.

So, how does this passage support the notion that salvation can be lost? I don't see it.

In fact, there is no mention of any action of either the good seed or weeds. We just see the categorization of believers and unbelievers.

So your question about nullification is moot.

2nd, Hebrews 3:12-15. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called to day: lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ (saved), if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Now first of all, this passage is addressed to believers, they are called brethren. It says to take heed lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. This indicates that departing from God is possible. We are truly saved only if we keep our confidence and faith stedfast unto the end. Now I know that you don't interpret being a partaker of Christ as being salvation, but I do, and so will others here who understand that believe-for-a-moment theology is false teaching and heresy.

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The error here is equating "being made partakers of Christ" with "being saved". To be a partaker with Christ is about fellowship, not relationship.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance: fellow, partaker, partner.
From metecho; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication, an associate -- fellow, partaker, partner.

How does one 'participate' in being IN CHRIST? They don't. Eph 1:13 doesn't allow for such nonsense. We are placed in union with Christ from "having believed". That's it. There's nothing we do in any sense of 'participation' to be placed in union with Christ.

Further, the words given by Strong's indicate a link that is more than just relationship. Cooperation is the issue, and that is about FELLOWSHIP, which OSNAS thinking seems to have no room for, in spite of the word occurring throughout the NT.

So your assumptions about the passage are flawed from the start. What the writer obviously meant in v.14 is that IF we hold our confidence (faith) to the end, we are in fellowship with Christ. iow, those who have no confidence are not in fellowship.

That's how I view the whole OSNAS crowd. Their confidence is in their own ability to endure to the end, etc.

btw, most of the English translations have:
share in Christ
partakers of Christ
participants in Christ
partners with Christ
companions of the Messiah (obviously fellowship)

I will say that to depart from God means to depart from faith in Christ who is God.

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I don't care what you will say. Jesus refutes your claims when He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That ends all discussion.

And we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ (John 14:6). If we depart from or lose faith therefore, we are no longer saved.

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This is merely presumption, since there are no verses that support your supposition.

Therefore if someone departs from God by rejecting faith, they are no longer saved. Is my logic too fuzzy for you this time?

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Absolutely. Not only just too fuzzy, totally wrong. Jesus doesn't allow for your speculations, presumptions, assumptions, or opinions. Or even wishes.

When He gives someone the gift of eternal life, He says they shall never perish.

That's not my opinion. That's from Jesus Himself.

And do you have an answer? To @FreeGrace2.

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Of course I do. And my answer is based squarely on what the Bible says about all this.

But you'd rather stew in your own presuppositions.

justbyfaith said:

@FreeGrace2 wrote:
John 10:28 speaks of eternal security, even though Jesus said "shall never perish".

So then, what, exactly does "shall never perish" really mean?

That some recipients MIGHT perish?


You might think that you are a recipient of eternal life when you really are not.

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What does it matter what uneducated people think? I'm only taking about those to whom Jesus GIVEs eternal life. They shall never perish, which is eternal security.

Many religious people from many religions think they will go to heaven. But how does that relate to John 10:28? Not at all. So your statement here is irrelevant. Possibly a smokescreen.

The word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow; and is a discerner of the thougths and intents of the heart.

As such, God may say something in His word for the express purpose of saving a man who believes he is saved when he is not.

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He "may"? No, He already HAS. John 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 10:28, 11:25-27, Eph 2:8,9.

God may even show that man that his past experience does not guarantee his salvation if he is the kind to do or work iniquity (Matthew 13:41-42).

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I already refuted your notions about that passage. It's not about losing salvation at all, if you actually consider the whole parable and its explanation.

The "good seed" refer to believers and "weeds" refer to unbelievers. Obviously.

Now I believe in eternal security for the one who does not do or work iniquity (Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41-42).

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See? You keep forcing conditions on recipients of eternal life in order to never perish.

Yet, Jesus did no such thing in John 10:28. This verse continues to refute your notions.

The one who doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1 John 2:17)

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Do you even understand what is meant by "the will of God" here? Also found in Matt 7:21.

John 6:40 answers this question of what "the will of God" refers to.

"For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

So "the will of God" is about having eternal life.

And whosoever abideth in him sinneth not. (1 John 3:6).

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And I've explained this thoroughly as well. To "abide" is about fellowship and the filling of the Holy Spirit. So when the believer is filled with the Spirit, he CANNOT sin. Simple as that.

The one who is born of God, and abiding in salvation, has made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, and hell, and towards righteousness, life, and heaven.

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Wow. Where to start?

1. Please support your notion that "abiding in salvation" is even biblical.
2. Please support from Scripture that personal actions/behaviors are related in any way to either obtaining or losing salvation.
3. Please support from Scripture that the one who is born of God is guaranteed to make all these changes that you presume?

I know better, because of the clear evidence from Scripture about all the warnings regarding behavior.

Their righteousness increases from day to day (Proverbs 4:18) until it reaches the highest point, and then it remains at the highest point (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9,). There is no going backward (Philippians 3:15-16).

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If any of this were true, there would be no need for ANY warning or admonition for proper behavior for believers. It would be irrelevant.

But the fact that there are many such verses, your presumptions are proven false.

Consider this evidence from Scripture:

Worthy

Eph 4:1- As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Phil 1:27- Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel

Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

1 Thess 2:12 - encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 1:11 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith

Holy

Rom 12:1 - Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God — this is your spiritual act of worship

1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ — their Lord and ours:

Eph 1:4 - For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless

Col 1:22 - But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones

1 Thess 4:4 - that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable

1 Thess 4:7 - For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life

2 Tim 1:9 - who has saved us and called us to a holy life — not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of tim

2 Tim 2:21 - If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Titus 1:8 - Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined

Heb 10:14 - because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Heb 12:14 - Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord

1 Peter 1:15-16 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

2 Peter 3:11 - Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives

Blameless

1 Cor 1:8 - He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ

Phil 1:10 - so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless until the day of Christ

Phil 2:14-15 - Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe

1 Thess 5:23 - May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 3:14 - So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him

Why would any of these verses be in Scripture if what you've just said was true?

FreeGrace2 said in post #2055:

So the only issue of who won't perish is whether they were given the gift of eternal life.

Bible2+ said:

There are other issues (e.g. Luke 13:3).

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I've explained Luke 13:3, so you can put that broken record to rest.

And you cannot show from John 10:28 ANY conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

So nothing else you say is relevant, since you err greatly with that one verse.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Once again, please provide the BEST verse that actually says that salvation can be lost.

I won't hold my breath.

112358 said:

Am I allowed more than one verse?

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In fact, you (or anyone else) is allowed ANY verse(s) that clearly in plain language tell us that salvation can be lost. No one has done that yet.

And the reason is simple; they Bible doesn't have any verses that tell us that salvation can be lost.

But...the Bible DOES tell us that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, which is just another way to state eternal security.

How about a passage of just a few verses all found together. How about a passage that appears in red letters in many texts. That would be the words of Jesus Christ.

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If you think that there are any words of Jesus that do say that salvation can be lost, all you've done is find evidence that Jesus condtradicted Himself.

But not to worry. That's not possible. Jesus never contradicted Himself, and He was real clear about the fact that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

I'm usually hesitant when someone uses the straw man tactic of "show me one verse".

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I didn't ask for "one". I asked for the "best" one.

It is one of the first signs of danger that we are dealing with an agenda other than getting to the truth.

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In truth, the real "agenda" here is to subvert Scripture by trying to find verses that contradict John 10:28. Be my guest.

Usually single verses (as in this case with John 10:28) are lifted from their contextual meaning to serve the agenda.

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I invite you or anyone else to prove that I've "lifted" that verse out of its context.

In fact, I challenge anyone to do that.

As I've said numerous times, Christ is using imagery which refers to His sheep.

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What has been proven is that His reference to "His sheep" refers to those who have believed. Period. So that's who He gives eternal life to.

Those of His flock. He uses this imagery many times. Of course they can't be snatched from His hand! But elsewhere He also teaches about His sheep that go astray.

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Yes, they sure do. Anyone who knows sheep knows how STUPID they are. Getting lost all the time. Probably a lot like herding cats.

But NO WHERE does Jesus say that recipients of eternal life CAN perish. That would contyradict what He said clearly in John 10:28.

Do you really hope to find any statement from Jesus that contradicts any other statement from Jesus? Huh?

Sheep that leave His flock. He teaches about the extent to which He will go to return His lost sheep to the flock.

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Then why even bother claiming that salvation can be lost, since He said "will go to return His sheep to the flock". All that means is that His sheep are secure because He is the Perfect Shepherd.

There would be no need to go to that extent if the straying sheep were not in danger of perishing. But you won't allow that discussion.

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You've just completed that discussion. Jesus, as the Perfect Shepherd, goes after the stupid sheep and returns them to the fold.

The fact that Jesus DOES do that aligns perfectly with John 10:28. That's WHY He says recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Because He goes after them and brings them back.

Here is the passage I would use if forced to point to one place: Mark 4:13-20

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Please don't compliment me beyond reality. I have no power to force anyone to do anything. I only asked for the BEST verse that tells us plainly that salvation can be lost.

If you feel forced, I think you have a problem.

So, let's get to the passage:
13 Then Jesus said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?
14The farmer sows the word.
15 Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy.
17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word;
19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown.”[/QUOTE]
v.13 - once again we see that even His own disciples did NOT understand His parables, apparently ANY of His parables. Yet OSNAS is forced (yes) to rely on parables for their views on security.

Now, we have 4 soils.
v.15 is about unbelievers, and Satan steals the seed so they won't believe (Luke 8:12)
v.16-20 are 3 more soils.
v.16 is about believers (who actually "believed for a while") (Luke 8:13) but ceased to believe (fell away from their faith, not salvation as wrongly assumed) because of trouble or persecution.
v.18-19 is about believers but unfortunately isn't nearly as clear as the Luke account. But what we do know is that the seed produced a plant (new life from the seed, indicating regeneration). But unlike the 2nd soil, who ceased to believe because of trouble or persecution, the 3rd soil didn't bear fruit because of the "deceitfulness of wealth" and "desires for other things".
v.20 is the 4th soil, who responded properly to their regeneration and bore a lot of fruit. iow, they weren't burdened down by trouble/persecution, or the deceitfulness of wealth or desire for other things.

The point of the parable of the soils is about bearing fruit.
Soil 1 didn't believe.
Soil 2 did believe but didn't bear fruit due to trouble/persecution
Soil 3 also believed but didn't bear fruit due to the deceitfulness of wealth and desire for other things.
Soil 4 responded properly to the gospel and bore fruit.

Any questions?

A very well know parable that legions of OSAS will say refers to non believers where the seed proves unfruitful.

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I would disagree STRONGLY with such an assumption. From Luke's account, which is much clearer, soils #2-4 all produced plants from the seed (remember that Jesus used "seed" for the Word of God - Mark 4:14. The only way for a seed to end up a plant is by having new life. Obviously.

But Jesus interprets the parable for us. The seed is the Word. Anywhere the seed is sown, if it sprouts, produces nothing but a Christian, ever.

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Yes, that's what I said.

If something other than a Christian sprouts, then something other than the Word was sown.

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And we see that nothing else did sprout.

God established this law in nature in the dawn of creation. It's why you don't sow corn if you expect to reap soy beans, and it's why he used the parable. Everyone can understand this because it is simple to understand.

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None of this is relevant to the parable.

When the Word is sown in the heart Satan snatches it away immediately in some. It never sprouts. It does not produce a Christian. These are the non believers. And they will perish in eternity.

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All this I agree with.

Now, since the Word will never produce anything other than a Christian, we can see clearly that there are several things that can happen when the Word sprouts and produces a Christian. Some endure only for a short time. Some stumble. Some never bear fruit. The sprout, the Christian, is scorched, it withers away, it dies. These will also perish in eternity.

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Well, everything here was correct until the last sentence, which you have not, because you cannot, prove from Scripture.

I still wonder why anyone would out and out disagree with Jesus about recipients of eternal life (believers) never perishing. By your own words, you are in total opposition to the Savior. How does that make you feel?

I am literally praying that you will not twist this plain and simple truth straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ.

Seek truth!

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What you really need to pray for is that the total deception you're under will be lifted off your eyes so that you can see clearly.

It seems you're not even aware that your view is in total opposition to the words of Jesus in John 10:28.

EmSw said:

...

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Are you planning on answering my 3 questions? Or should I not hold my breath about it?

Here they are again:
1. Explain WHY Jesus is called the Savior. What did He DO to be Savior?

2. Explain WHY both water baptism and communion include the cross that you mock.

3. Explain what redemption means and how it was accomplished.

FreeGrace2 said:

I still wonder why anyone would out and out disagree with Jesus about recipients of eternal life (believers) never perishing. By your own words, you are in total opposition to the Savior. How does that make you feel?

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You will not find a statement from me disagreeing with Jesus about anything. I accept enthusiastically that recipients of eternal life (believers) will never perish!

I also accept that He states over and over and over that those who turn from belief to unbelief are lost and condemned in eternity. I accept that He said it would be better for them to have never known the truth.

I don't know you and you don't know me, but this I know: Everyone I ever have known who clutches so tightly to OSAS does so to justify some kind of willful sinful practice in their own life or of someone else. Unscriptural marriages. Fornication. Materialism. Idolatry and Godlessness of all sorts. They need OSAS to sooth the sting of their conscience. And most, when they have been seared beyond all recognition of righteousness and are completely numb to their rebellion, leave the faith completely and return wholesale back to the world, never to be seen again. And people scratch their heads wondering why their children are murdering each other in cold blood. Godless, murderous people do Godless, murderous things. But, GOD. IS. NOT. MOCKED.

No one has yet answered my question about Satan seeking those, like a lion, that he might devour. Is it those who already belong to him? Or is it Christians? And if Christians be devoured by Satan through accepting his rebellion, be certain that they will likewise share his fate.

You can believe that or not, but thus states the Word of God Almighty. The counsel of the Lord stands forever.

Seek truth!

112358 said:

You will not find a statement from me disagreeing with Jesus about anything.

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Yet you blithely believe that recipients of eternal life can perish. Go figure.

I accept enthusiastically that recipients of eternal life (believers) will never perish!

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But you don't!

I also accept that He states over and over and over that those who turn from belief to unbelief are lost and condemned in eternity.

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What we have here is a dichotomy. 2 opposing beliefs. But you can't have it both ways.

Jesus was clear about WHEN possesses eternal life. It's WHEN one believes, for John 5:24 and 6:47 clearly say that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". That proves that all recipients of eternal life received the gift WHEN they believed.

Yet you believe that there are "conditions" whereby those recipients of eternal life who are guilty of these "conditions" will PERISH.

In direct opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

To believe in 2 diametrically opposed views is the definition of absurdity.

I accept that He said it would be better for them to have never known the truth.

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Yet, there is NOTHING in 2 Pet 2:20-22 that states that salvation can be lost.

I don't know you and you don't know me, but this I know: Everyone I ever have known who clutches so tightly to OSAS does so to justify some kind of willful sinful practice in their own life or of someone else.

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No doubt you know very few people then. The reason I "cling tightly" to eternal security is because Jesus taught in very clear and plain words. No other reason.

So don't project the stupidity of a few onto me.

Unscriptural marriages. Fornication. Materialism. Idolatry and Godlessness of all sorts.

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Sadly, many many believers are NOT living the life they are commanded to live. But the Bible says all sins have been paid for, and there is no double jeopardy in Scripture.

They need OSAS to sooth the sting of their conscience.

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I don't care what stupid people "need". If anyone wants to justify or defend their sinful behavior, they are simply very ignorant of what Scripture says about it. They will meet the wrath of God. But just not in the way you all are hoping for.

And most, when they have been seared beyond all recognition of righteousness and are completely numb to their rebellion, leave the faith completely and return wholesale back to the world, never to be seen again. And people scratch their heads wondering why their children are murdering each other in cold blood. Godless, murderous people do Godless, murderous things. But, GOD. IS. NOT. MOCKED.

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you bet that God will not be mocked.

So QUIT disagreeing with what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

It's clear enough for grade school children to understand easily.

No one has yet answered my question about Satan seeking those, like a lion, that he might devour. Is it those who already belong to him? Or is it Christians?

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The answer is yes, yes. Those who "belong to Him" are Christians. Why would he seek to devour those who aren't His? He already has them.

And if Christians be devoured by Satan through accepting his rebellion, be certain that they will likewise share his fate.

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So, what verse gives this certainty that you speak of?

John 10:28 says no one, which would include even the devil can snatch one of His out of God's hand.

So you STILL have no point.

You can believe that or not, but thus states the Word of God Almighty. The counsel of the Lord stands forever.

Seek truth!

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You're the one who doesn't believe what the Word of God Almighty has said so clearly in John 10:28.

All this posturing and posing is useless against the Word of God.

Regardless of how horrible a believer may act, He IS in the hand of God, not to be snatched away. He "shall never perish", as repugnant to you and others as that may seem.

It is apparent that you do not understand (or like) the grace of God.

Even the most faithful and obedient believer doesn't deserve or earn salvation, so why on earth would the other end of the spectrum of saved people earn or deserve loss of salvation?

I'll bet this question will be ignored.

If we're not saved by behavior, then we can't lose our salvation by behavior.

How come that isn't clear to you?

Another question I bet will be ignored.

FreeGrace2 said:

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Once again, please provide the BEST verse that actually says that salvation can be lost.

I won't hold my breath.

In fact, you (or anyone else) is allowed ANY verse(s) that clearly in plain language tell us that salvation can be lost. No one has done that yet.

And the reason is simple; they Bible doesn't have any verses that tell us that salvation can be lost.

But...the Bible DOES tell us that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, which is just another way to state eternal security.

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Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If you don't pluck your offending right eye, you will be cast into hell. Another condition which you conveniently forget. To whom is He speaking?

Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you don't repent of your sins, you will perish, another condition you don't want to hear.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Another verse which you do not like. One must LABOR for the meat which endures unto everlasting life. This is not a verse you ever quote; I don't think you believe this verse.

1 Corinthians 8:11
And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

How is it a weak brother can perish?

FreeGrace2 said:

Yet you blithely believe that recipients of eternal life can perish. Go figure.


But you don't!


What we have here is a dichotomy. 2 opposing beliefs. But you can't have it both ways.

Jesus was clear about WHEN possesses eternal life. It's WHEN one believes, for John 5:24 and 6:47 clearly say that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". That proves that all recipients of eternal life received the gift WHEN they believed.

Yet you believe that there are "conditions" whereby those recipients of eternal life who are guilty of these "conditions" will PERISH.

In direct opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

To believe in 2 diametrically opposed views is the definition of absurdity.


Yet, there is NOTHING in 2 Pet 2:20-22 that states that salvation can be lost.


No doubt you know very few people then. The reason I "cling tightly" to eternal security is because Jesus taught in very clear and plain words. No other reason.

So don't project the stupidity of a few onto me.


Sadly, many many believers are NOT living the life they are commanded to live. But the Bible says all sins have been paid for, and there is no double jeopardy in Scripture.


I don't care what stupid people "need". If anyone wants to justify or defend their sinful behavior, they are simply very ignorant of what Scripture says about it. They will meet the wrath of God. But just not in the way you all are hoping for.


you bet that God will not be mocked.

So QUIT disagreeing with what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

It's clear enough for grade school children to understand easily.


The answer is yes, yes. Those who "belong to Him" are Christians. Why would he seek to devour those who aren't His? He already has them.


So, what verse gives this certainty that you speak of?

John 10:28 says no one, which would include even the devil can snatch one of His out of God's hand.

So you STILL have no point.


You're the one who doesn't believe what the Word of God Almighty has said so clearly in John 10:28.

All this posturing and posing is useless against the Word of God.

Regardless of how horrible a believer may act, He IS in the hand of God, not to be snatched away. He "shall never perish", as repugnant to you and others as that may seem.

It is apparent that you do not understand (or like) the grace of God.

Even the most faithful and obedient believer doesn't deserve or earn salvation, so why on earth would the other end of the spectrum of saved people earn or deserve loss of salvation?

I'll bet this question will be ignored.

If we're not saved by behavior, then we can't lose our salvation by behavior.

How come that isn't clear to you?

Another question I bet will be ignored.

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Sorry friend. Belief alone doesn't cut it. James 2:18-20
Otherwise the demons themselves will inherit eternal life.
1 John 2:17
It is him that DOES the will of the Father that abides forever. That is verb. That is an action.
Matthew 7:21 He that DOES the will...
Matthew 7:24 And DOES them...
Matthew 12:50 DOES the will...
Mark 3:35 DOES the will...
Luke 6:47 DOES them...
Luke 18:17 DOES not receive the kingdom
John 12:48 DOES not receive My words...
Colossians 3:25 DOES wrong will be repaid...
James 1:22 DOERS of the word
James 1:23 If anyone is a hearer of the work and not a DOER
James 1:25 DOER of the work...
John 14:15 If you love Me, KEEP my commandments
John 14:21 He who has My commandments and KEEPS them...
John 15:10 If you KEEP my commandments
1 Corinthians 6:9 unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God
Galatians 5:21 Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God
Luke 13:24 Will seek to enter and will NOT be able
Hebrews 3:12-19
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but [a]exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

How many more conditions do you want to see? Regarding grace:

We've been here before but I guess we'll just keep on keeping on. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. Faith is not just belief. It is ACTIVE belief. Grace reigns in RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness is conducting ones self according to God's commandments. So no righteousness = no faith. No faith = no grace. No grace = no salvation.

No one can snatch us from His hand, but we by all means can jump out, and He can by all means cast us out. 2 Timothy 4:1 Matthew 25:30

EmSw said:

Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If you don't pluck your offending right eye, you will be cast into hell. Another condition which you conveniently forget. To whom is He speaking?

Luke 13:5
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

If you don't repent of your sins, you will perish, another condition you don't want to hear.

John 6:27
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Another verse which you do not like. One must LABOR for the meat which endures unto everlasting life. This is not a verse you ever quote; I don't think you believe this verse.

1 Corinthians 8:11
And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

How is it a weak brother can perish?

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Are you planning on answering my 3 questions? Or should I not hold my breath about it?

Here they are again:
1. Explain WHY Jesus is called the Savior. What did He DO to be Savior?

2. Explain WHY both water baptism and communion include the cross that you mock.

3. Explain what redemption means and how it was accomplished.

FreeGrace2 said:

The answer is yes, yes. Those who "belong to Him" are Christians. Why would he seek to devour those who aren't His? He already has them.

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Absolutely incorrect. Those that already belong to Satan are the lost. Christians are those that he seeks to devour. You'd better get this one straight in a hurry.