Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

com7fy8

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you would remove your own children out from a dangerous place to protect them by removing them from the danger
What about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego > Daniel chapter three? What about Jesus on Calvary? What about Joseph > Genesis 37-50? What about our Apostle Paul > 2 Corinthians 11:24-26, 2 Corinthians 12:7-15, and how Paul says to follow his example > 1 Corinthians 11:1?

God kept them from trouble by bringing them through it all so it did not keep them in it. This present world is a very dangerous place, and our Heavenly Father has us here, but in His love > Romans 5:5 < with power almighty to keep us from the fear which is in Satan's spirit > Ephesians 2:2, 1 John 4:17, 1 John 4:4, Hebrews 2:14-15.

And even if we are in a horrible situation, God will be in control of if and how much Satan and his kingdom is allowed to attack us > Luke 12:6-7, 1 Corinthians 10:13, Ephesians 1:11 < plus, God will be in control of anything He brings against this evil world, so it does not hurt us who are His children . . . like how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego were right in those flames which killed the evil men who threw Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego into those flames, but those flames did not hurt Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego.

Daniel chapter 3.
 
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seventysevens

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Ok . . . we can see here if we are acknowledging scripture or not >

If a trial is upon the worldly people, we in Jesus are not worldly people!!!!

And so, even if we are present during how God tests this world, we do not go through it like the worldly people do. It is easier for us . . . in Jesus Christ's yoke which is "easy" and His burden which is "light" > see Matthew 11:28-30, please.
it is most clear that you either do not understand the context , precepts or you simply choose to ignore them, sorry man but you will have to wait until I get enough time to walk you through some of this because lately I just don't have that much time to give - so i will share this- without knowing if you are amil , or preterist , premil or whatever the views are different and people believe different things, --- the trial IS the same thing as the Great Trib , Great Trib as in Great Hail , or Great Hurricane or Great Earthquake - it means Great Intensity - a trial/tribulation period that is far more severe than any other time in history, As Jesus put it -

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved

this is a time where everyone who is on earth will suffer this great tribulation

It will not be a time where some people have a rougher time than others , for that time is now , but during the trials of the Great tribulation , the beast will be in power , requiring people to take the mark , if you take the mark to are doomed to the lake of fire , if you do not take it you will be killed or if lucky make into the wilderness , but there is not enough room there for many people - the notion that when this time happens that it will be just a little rougher than today is way far wrong , if a person does not take the mark it will be literally hell on earth for them ,
You have not indicated in any manner at all that you even know what will be happening during this trial , and I do not have the time to go through the many many scriptures to show you what it will be like , there are people here that have that time but I do not , it seems that you do not realize the reasons for it nor the severity of it as this trial is as Jesus said

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved

First the man of lawlessness becomes the beast - then he will sent out his armies to command people to accept the mark or be killed after this phase is complete then the severity of Gods wrath ramps up into high gear as explained in revelation , after that is fulfilled and Jesus returns , this is a quick summary as I don't have that much time -
What is you exact specific plan on how you will buy food , have a job, pay electric bill without taking the mark , or do you think of that time as some sort of symbolic thing that no one will actually be killed if they don't take it ?
 
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seventysevens

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My translation says Jesus will keep us from, not out of.
Definition of From
Definition of from
1 a —used as a function word to indicate a starting point of a physical movement or a starting point in measuring or reckoning or in a statement of limits
  • came here from the city
  • a week from today
  • cost from $5 to $10
b —used as a function word to indicate the starting or focal point of an activity
  • called me from a pay phone
  • ran a business from her home
2 —used as a function word to indicate physical separation or an act or condition of removal, abstention, exclusion, release, subtraction, or differentiation
  • protection from the sun
  • relief from anxiety
But you will probably seek to find a definition that is more to your liking since you rather not accept that it means out from :)
 
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com7fy8

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You have not indicated in any manner at all that you even know what will be happening during this trial , and I do not have the time to go through the many many scriptures to show you what it will be like , there are people here that have that time but I do not , it seems that you do not realize the reasons for it nor the severity of it as this trial is as Jesus said

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved
I offer that I am already acquainted with this. And I have answered how we do not boast how great a trial is, but how great our God is.

Also > Jesus says that "Immediately after" that greatest tribulation "ever", then is when the "elect" will be gathered.

And so we are wise to trust God who knows to have us ready for whatever He knows will really happen.

So, I offer that you have already made yourself very clear about what you believe. And I am offering scripture and things I have learned.
 
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com7fy8

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protection from the sun
You can have protection "from" the sunlight, by having lotion which protects you from it while you are in it.

Or you can have protection "from" sunshine, by retreating from it or staying out of it.

So, yes I keep open about what different scriptures mean, since I am not perfect.
 
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seventysevens

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I offer that I am already acquainted with this. And I have answered how we do not boast how great a trial is, but how great our God is.

Also > Jesus says that "Immediately after" that greatest tribulation "ever", then is when the "elect" will be gathered.

And so we are wise to trust God who knows to have us ready for whatever He knows will really happen.

So, I offer that you have already made yourself very clear about what you believe. And I am offering scripture and things I have learned.
Ok , But I just state what scripture tells us , and the gathering is a time when those who are already raptured in heaven, prior to the GT and gathered from all of heaven and then all those who were killed in the GT gathered to one place with Jesus , as the scripture says from all of heaven and and earth , not just earth but heaven also , Scripture has provided very specific instruction to people when a calamity will take place Before it happens - the idea that we would not be told exactness of how God will protect is the failing of that teaching, God told Noah to build a ark , God told Abraham to stay away from Sodom.Gomorrah , God has said he will harpazo his people , - there is no scripture anywhere that gives any hint of any action God would do to protect us through the GT , the only mention is one of to keep us from the hour of trial

I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

you can use suntan oils if you think that will help , but it means to keep you from the hour of trial , which literally means that we will not be in the time period of the trial , so if we are still on earth - then you have to find scripture that states where at least 2 Billion Christians will live on earth that are not subjected to the AntiChrist reign , how we have have electricity , food , jobs , --there are no such provisions - none is needed since Jesus will keep us from that time period ,
people get these ideas that they have to prove to God they love him , but how we prove that is having faith and living according to his will when we have the freedom of choice

When people will not even think of putting their own children in a dangerous place , seems they think the same Jesus that chose to die for you on the cross would not remove you from the most dangerous time that earth will ever see - that makes no sense - it is just religious rhetoric that people try to sound impressive , Jesus does not want HIS Children to be put in a place where their despair would be so great
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus does not want HIS Children to be put in a place where their despair would be so great
You have already made this clear, that you claim this to be so. And you have said we need to go by what the Bible says. So, we offer, to show if our Heavenly Father ever puts His children in places of danger >

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego > Daniel chapter three

Joseph > Genesis 37-50

Paul our Apostle > 2 Corinthians 11:22-33

Plus, as I have quoted above, Jesus says He sends us as sheep among wolves > Matthew 10:16.

And Paul says we can become like Jesus, "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > Philippians 2:13-16.

Even so, when God pleases, He puts us in safer situations, like how you say He did with Noah. So, God does what suits His purpose at the time, I would say. There is no set rule about if God always will have us in places of danger or not, and His ways are "past finding out." (in Romans 11:33)

David was in danger of being killed by Saul, for quite a while. This is another example of what the Bible says.

So, I personally understand that God is able to keep us right in the midst of a trouble, and He is able to have us living in more or less safety. However, always we in Jesus are "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" > Philippians 2:13-16. So, always we are in danger, somehow.

And if anyone has children, God will be in control of what Satan and his kingdom are allowed to do. However our Father is testing us, our Father will have absolute control and He will always do what is right.

if we are still on earth - then you have to find scripture that states where at least 2 Billion Christians will live on earth that are not subjected to the AntiChrist reign , how we have have electricity , food , jobs , --there are no such provisions -
You are welcome to give scriptures.

I do not assume how many real Christians will be on this earth . . . at that time. Jesus says that "few" find the way > Matthew 7:14. So, I do not assume that people I don't even know personally are or are not Christians.

But we do have in Revelation chapter seven that "great multitude which no one could number", and the elder says they "come out of the great tribulation". You can come out, by dying during the tribulation. You can come out at the end of it. If no one is able to number these, then they could be in the billions.

And scripture is clear how God is able to take care of all these people. The Bible is full of things about how God is able. So, no way am I going to assume God won't be able. You can boast any number; but we boast God who is greater.

And I can personally see how it could work practically.

For one example > if those locusts are stinging and tormenting evil people so the wicked are running scared, God can have them dropping their food and running, and we can eat the food without having to pay for it.

Revelation 9:1-12

And if a third of the world is killed > Revelation 9:13-19 > they will maybe leave behind places to stay, means of transportation, food and medical things. And so, if ones of us are here, the enemies who are being killed and tormented will not be able to stop us from getting whatsoever God pleases to provide . . . unless God lets up enough to allow them to mess with us and cut off our heads.

And, as Revelation chapter seven says, God's "servants" will be "sealed" so we are safe from His wrath judgments (1 Thessalonians 5:8-10). So, we won't be the ones who have the real problem.
 
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seventysevens

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You have already made this clear, that you claim this to be so. And you have said we need to go by what the Bible says.
Correct , The Word of Jesus gives us the commands that He wants his followers to do- but first address matters such as common sense /age of accountability/ juvenile v adult responsibilities , God does not hold young children accountable that have not lived long enough to understand , nor does our judicial system that originated from the Holy Scriptures , people who have lived long enough to learn and understand are indeed held accountable - thus the reason for the age of accountability , thus the reason the judicial system says 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' as they tired of people committing crimes and they say they did not know it was illegal

Jesus gave us a list of things all through the bible through His teachings as well as other scriptures that lay the teachings and foundation as to how His
followers are expected to live and love and obey - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - Jesus speaks in many ways about what a good Shepard is and what a good father is ,His people shall know His voice if they are willing to know Him in a personal way

While you focus on the OT - you ignore what Jesus taught - The very same Jesus that died for your sins so you can spend eternity with Him , His teachings you ignore so you can focus on how God did things BEFORE Jesus
Paid the penalty for you

In Gods word just as in our world today considers anyone that causes people to suffer -must suffer for causing that suffering , Jesus set the example of how we are expected to live , love , obey and follow
Our society stems from those teachings of the bible - some known as the Golden Rule - We know that God cannot lie and cannot do evil so then we know that He will never cause us to behave in a evil way - Freewill is given and it comes with responsibility, just as people have freewill to drink alcohol and freedom to drive a car - if they drive a car while drunk they have a responsibility to not violate the law and when they do they pay the penalty

People are given freewill - freedom to choose to live according to what Jesus taught and freedom to ignore it and live in whatever manner they choose.
There is a responsibility that goes with that freedom and God will not force anyone to follow Him , but if they choose not to do so there is a penalty they will have to pay for rejecting Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lord and HIS word has told us exactly what that penalty will be if they choose to reject Jesus - so they have no excuse when it is time for them to be judged

Jesus is no hypocrite - he does not ask us to live by His rules then turn those rules against those he says he loves - which is what it would be if he caused those he says he loves to go through the worst event in the history of the earth -
People have freewill and with that comes responsibility , Jesus plainly says that people that have obeyed Him and kept His Word - Kept their patience in Him and trusted in Him through the course of their lives after accepting Him as Lord of their lives ,
He will keep us out of that time designated for those who did not trust in Him , did not accept Him as Lord
Even so, when God pleases, He puts us in safer situations, like how you say He did with Noah.
God has not given us any command to build an ark for safety that we may all be able to sail away from the horrendous things to come
There is no indication of any kind of any of instruction of any of Gods people to build anything to protect us from what is to come - simple reason for that - we don't need to build anything for we will not be here to endure it.

Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel and when this has been done -then the end of the age will come - No mention of any further instruction on what to do to protect ourselves , no mention that Jesus in spirit walk with us through any fire that may happen everywhere on the planet and the same time -

No instructions of any kind , not even a hint at it , because Jesus has already told us that he will keep us from it , if he meant to say through that is what he would have said , but he did not say that

All scripture that will be written has been written - there will not be any more written , so we follow what Jesus taught that He is the Good Father that will keep us from that hour of testing because if we follow what he taught in how to live and trust in Him we have already passed the test of putting Jesus first in our lives , and not follow after false gods

people that chase after false gods , whatever that may be will go through that testing , which is why He sends that man of sin /man of lawlessness to convince those people who reject Jesus as messiah to believe a lie that the man of lawlessness is the messiah , very simple Jesus gives people what they want , they reject Him so he sends a man they will accept - but he causes them to believe a lie , part of Gods plan on how he deals with those who refuse to repent of their wicked ways
You are welcome to give scriptures.
I do not assume how many real Christians will be on this earth . . . at that time. Jesus says that "few" find the way > Matthew 7:14. So, I do not assume that people I don't even know personally are or are not Christians.
When I have time I can provide scripture
You can simply research the stats to see that there are 2 billion at least people today that have professed they have accepted Jesus as Lord of their lives , that gives a factual basis of approximately now many people have accepted Jesus , and if we are protected through the GT that number indicates how many people will need a place to live , food , electricity, jobs
clothing , all the things people take for granted today-

Facts of how will you survive living in a time where a man of lawlessness/beast demands everyone worship him as God or you will be killed , demands that you must accept the mark that you must worship him before you can but food or anything else ,
and if you accept it because you or your babies are starving you give up any chance of spending eternity with Jesus - a great tribulation that can cause people who have accepted Jesus as Lord , accepting the mark just to get food for their children resulting in those people accepting the mark to spend eternity in the lake of fire because they chose to feed their children and had to accept the mark to do it
Our good Father would never put that type of choice on someone who HE loves as it goes against all That Jesus taught
But we do have in Revelation chapter seven that "great multitude which no one could number", and the elder says they "come out of the great tribulation". You can come out, by dying during the tribulation. You can come out at the end of it. If no one is able to number these, then they could be in the billions.
And scripture is clear how God is able to take care of all these people.
And I can personally see how it could work practically.
For one example > if those locusts are stinging and tormenting evil people so the wicked are running scared, God can have them dropping their food and running, and we can eat the food without having to pay for it.
What scripture do you have that addresses taking care of the people in the GT, ,well at least you have an imagination, but what you are not recognizing is how it really plays out , consider those locusts are evil wicked creatures that do not know who is a child of God and who is not anymore than a rabid dog does , and they do not care , there is no scripture that says they only attack the wicked and not Gods people - the Great testing is on the inhabitants of earth , if you are here you are an inhabitant of earth - there is only 144000 people that get a special seal that protects them , to try to say that it means all Christians is simply false - if it was to mean that , it would say that and no specific number of people would be mentioned .

If you are in an area that has vicious dogs and they attack it will not stop to think to attack the wicked person and not bother the Christian as it does not know or care , if you are present you will be attacked just as quickly as the wicked person and you will not have the pleasure to pick up the food that is dropped as you will be running for your life
 
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BABerean2

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Correct , The Word of Jesus gives us the commands that He wants his followers to do- but first address matters such as common sense /age of accountability/ juvenile v adult responsibilities , God does not hold young children accountable that have not lived long enough to understand , nor does our judicial system that originated from the Holy Scriptures , people who have lived long enough to learn and understand are indeed held accountable - thus the reason for the age of accountability , thus the reason the judicial system says 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' as they tired of people committing crimes and they say they did not know it was illegal

Jesus gave us a list of things all through the bible through His teachings as well as other scriptures that lay the teachings and foundation as to how His
followers are expected to live and love and obey - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you - Jesus speaks in many ways about what a good Shepard is and what a good father is ,His people shall know His voice if they are willing to know Him in a personal way

While you focus on the OT - you ignore what Jesus taught - The very same Jesus that died for your sins so you can spend eternity with Him , His teachings you ignore so you can focus on how God did things BEFORE Jesus
Paid the penalty for you

In Gods word just as in our world today considers anyone that causes people to suffer -must suffer for causing that suffering , Jesus set the example of how we are expected to live , love , obey and follow
Our society stems from those teachings of the bible - some known as the Golden Rule - We know that God cannot lie and cannot do evil so then we know that He will never cause us to behave in a evil way - Freewill is given and it comes with responsibility, just as people have freewill to drink alcohol and freedom to drive a car - if they drive a car while drunk they have a responsibility to not violate the law and when they do they pay the penalty

People are given freewill - freedom to choose to live according to what Jesus taught and freedom to ignore it and live in whatever manner they choose.
There is a responsibility that goes with that freedom and God will not force anyone to follow Him , but if they choose not to do so there is a penalty they will have to pay for rejecting Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lord and HIS word has told us exactly what that penalty will be if they choose to reject Jesus - so they have no excuse when it is time for them to be judged

Jesus is no hypocrite - he does not ask us to live by His rules then turn those rules against those he says he loves - which is what it would be if he caused those he says he loves to go through the worst event in the history of the earth -
People have freewill and with that comes responsibility , Jesus plainly saya that people that have obeyed Him and kept His Word - Kept their patience in Him and trusted in Him through the course of their lives after accepting Him as Lord of their lives , He will keep us out of that time designated for those who did not trust in Him , did not accept Him as Lord

God has not given us any command to build an ark for safety that we may all be able to sail away from the horrendous things to come
There is no indication of any kind of any of instruction of any of Gods people to build anything to protect us from what is to come - simple reason for that - we don't need to build anything for we will not be here to endure it.

Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the gospel and when this has been done -then the end of the age will come - No mention of any further instruction on what to do to protect ourselves , no mention that Jesus in spirit walk with us through any fire that may happen everywhere on the planet and the same time -

No instructions of any kind , not even a hint at it , because Jesus will has already told us that he will keep us from it , if he meant to say through that is what he would have said , but he did not say that
All scripture that will be written has been written - there will not be any more written , so we follow what Jesus taught that He is the Good Father that will keep us from that hour of testing because if we follow what he taught in how to live and trust in Him we have already passed the test of putting Jesus first in our lives , and not follow after false gods

people that chase after false gods , whatever that may be will go through that testing , which is why He sends that man of sin /man of lawlessness to convince those people who reject Jesus as messiah to believe a lie that the man of lawlessness is the messiah , very simple Jesus gives people what they want , they reject Him so he sends a man they will accept - but he causes them to believe a lie , part of Gods plan on how he deals with those who refuse to repent of their wicked ways

When I have time I can provide scripture
You can simply research the stats to see that there are 2 billion at least people today that have professed they have accepted Jesus as Lord of their lives , that gives a factual basis of approximately now many people have accepted Jesus , and if we are protected through the GT that number indicates how many people will need a place to live , food , electricity, jobs
clothing , all the things people take for granted today-

Facts of how will you survive living in a time where a man of lawlessness/beast demands everyone worship him as God or you will be killed , demands that you must accept the mark that you must worship him before you can but food or anything else ,and if you accept it because you or your babies are starving you give up any chance of spending eternity with Jesus - a great tribulation that can cause people who have accepted Jesus as Lord , accepting the mark just to get food for their children resulting in those people accepting the mark to spend eternity in the lake of fire because they chose to feed their children and had to accept the mark to do it
Our good Father would never put that type of choice on someone who HE loves as it goes against all That Jesus taught[/QUOTE]


.

Claims above are undone by just one verse from God's Word...


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.
 
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seventysevens

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

.
It would seem logical that you would at least understand what the scripture means , but no as usual you don't ;)
 
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BABerean2

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It would seem logical that you would at least understand what the scripture means , but no as usual you don't ;)


Then please explain to us why those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are not a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ...

.
 
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seventysevens

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Then please explain to us why those under the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11 are not a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ...

.
Elementary simple, there are people that do not now accept Jesus Christ- Christ meaning Messiah , after the harpazo has happened and the GT has begun, people get a wake up call and suddenly realize that all that talk about these things will happen , have happened they then decide itis time to accept Jesus as Messiah and they have become martyrs , - just as some people today have a near death experience and they realize it is time to change they way they live , but since there is so much scripture that you reject and refuse to acknowledge , doubtful you will believe it , be happy with what you believe , :)
 
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LastSeven

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That is exactly the BAD attitude I expect from you - You refuse to study but you want everyone else to prove anything you accuse , sorry about your luck , but it is your responsibility to prove your case , but you don't have a case , your weak argument is like those who demand Christians to Prove there is a God , then prove their God has done as the Christians says God has done , ,they never agree because they don't want to , they choose not to study

IT IS all your responsibility to study Not mine to prove what you choose not to take the time to learn, - besides the last time we engaged I showed you scripture proof that you asked for and it took several times giving you the answer and you did not understand it , that is all on you ..
I don't waste time on those who always looking to blame anyone else when they refuse to read study and learn- if you disagree that fine with me , It matters not to me what you choose to believe
You're clearly trying to put me on the defensive but I won't bite. You're trying to tell me to prove my case when I haven't even made a case yet. I'm asking you to prove your case, remember?

The bottom line is this: If you make a claim and somebody asks you to substantiate that claim, then you should be happy to do so, if you can, because it's an opportunity to educate your brothers and sisters.

If you can not substantiate it then that's o.k. too because we all have opinions and ideas about things that are just not provable, but then you shouldn't be afraid to say so. That's called keeping an open mind and that is the only way to be guided into the truth.

And please don't accuse me of not studying or having a bad attitude just because I disagree with you or ask you to prove your point. I'm not your enemy here, so don't treat me like one.
 
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seventysevens

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You're clearly trying to put me on the defensive but I won't bite. You're trying to tell me to prove my case when I haven't even made a case yet. I'm asking you to prove your case, remember?

The bottom line is this: If you make a claim and somebody asks you to substantiate that claim, then you should be happy to do so, if you can, because it's an opportunity to educate your brothers and sisters.

If you can not substantiate it then that's o.k. too because we all have opinions and ideas about things that are just not provable, but then you shouldn't be afraid to say so. That's called keeping an open mind and that is the only way to be guided into the truth.

And please don't accuse me of not studying or having a bad attitude just because I disagree with you or ask you to prove your point. I'm not your enemy here, so don't treat me like one.
an internet forum is not the place to expect that people come here to get educated or to educate others , I have learned that there are those like yourself that do not want to spend time researching anything that will take more than a couple of minutes , and as such there is a lot of things you are not aware of - If you have studied there would be no need to educate you , and you would have at least a good understanding of much of it , IF you really wanted to know more about what I have presented , you would use your time researching , but the truth is you don't want to , I do not care if you disagree , it matters not to me - it is up to you to take or leave it , you try to put a spin on it , but it does not work on me , if you think I cannot prove what I say , you have that right to believe whatever you choose to, I really have no interest in engaging with you because you will become combative as you do most times , I do not care if you believe or not , I keep an open mind , but that does not require having to go to all lengths of time and build a case with scripture knowing that you will not accept it , you refuse to believe something as simple and straight forward as Jesus reigning with the saints for 1000 years , so it be a total waste of time to get into a more complicated topic , if you do not agree with what you call a claim , that is fine with me , if you could prove it wrong , you would , you know you cannot ,
If you really wanted to learn you would study the scripture, yea you say you do , but if you did you would know the topic , you don't and do not want to spend your time seeking out the answers
Many other posters have stated just as I have , but you do not focus your attention on what they presented , Many posters ask the simple fundamental questions like , How will you survive without the mark?
NO post tribbers will answer such question with any sincerity , well if you say that God will protect us through it , where is the scripture that tells 2 billion people how to survive without the mark, ?
Why would God be silent on this important matter ,..Jesus has told us HIS answer
post trbbers have no answers , you have no answers , but yet you reject the answer that Jesus gave
 
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BABerean2

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an internet forum is not the place to expect that people come here to get educated or to educate others , I have learned that there are those like yourself that do not want to spend time researching anything that will take more than a couple of minutes , and as such there is a lot of things you are not aware of - If you have studied there would be no need to educate you , and you would have at least a good understanding of much of it , IF you really wanted to know more about what I have presented , you would use your time researching , but the truth is you don't want to , I do not care if you disagree , it matters not to me - it is up to you to take or leave it , you try to put a spin on it , but it does not work on me , if you think I cannot prove what I say , you have that right to believe whatever you choose to, I really have no interest in engaging with you because you will become combative as you do most times , I do not care if you believe or not , I keep an open mind , but that does not require having to go to all lengths of time and build a case with scripture knowing that you will not accept it , you refuse to believe something as simple and straight forward as Jesus reigning with the saints for 1000 years , so it be a total waste of time to get into a more complicated topic , if you do not agree with what you call a claim , that is fine with me , if you could prove it wrong , you would , you know you cannot ,
If you really wanted to learn you would study the scripture, yea you say you do , but if you did you would know the topic , you don't and do not want to spend your time seeking out the answers
Many other posters have stated just as I have , but you do not focus your attention on what they presented , Many posters ask the simple fundamental questions like , How will you survive without the mark?
NO post tribbers will answer such question with any sincerity , well if you say that God will protect us through it , where is the scripture that tells 2 billion people how to survive without the mark, ?
Why would God be silent on this important matter ,..Jesus has told us HIS answer
post trbbers have no answers , you have no answers , but yet you reject the answer that Jesus gave

Christ saves our immortal soul, instead of our mortal flesh body.

Pretribbers seem not to understand this fact.

All of the Apostles except John were murdered for our faith.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls apart with it.

.
 
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seventysevens

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Christ saves our immortal soul, instead of our mortal flesh body.
Your understanding continues to fail, No one has ever said it is about saving a flesh body , the flesh body no longer exists when the harpazo takes place , it is about Jesus keeping His beloved followers out from the suffering that will take place on earth, the testing that is put upon the inhabitants of earth , but since you refuse to believe that Jesus returns and reigns on earth with the saints for 1000 years shows your lack of understanding
 
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BABerean2

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Your understanding continues to fail, No one has ever said it is about saving a flesh body , the flesh body no longer exists when the harpazo takes place , it is about Jesus keeping His beloved followers out from the suffering that will take place on earth, the testing that is put upon the inhabitants of earth , but since you refuse to believe that Jesus returns and reigns on earth with the saints for 1000 years shows your lack of understanding


.
 
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Davy

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Yes. There may in fact be two separate "raptures"... if the two witnesses are also the 144k... and if the harvest is the multitude singing the old song of Moses.

The 144,000 of Rev.7 represent Israelites in Christ Jesus, and the "great multitude" represent Gentiles in Christ Jesus. Both go through the tribulation, and are sealed with God's sealing by The Holy Spirit. The view John is given of the "great multitude" is a post-tribulation view during Christ's future Millennial reign. Thus, none of that has to do with man's idea of a pre-trib rapture.
 
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