" Not one jot or tittle shall pass away "

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In context, of Hebrews 7, the law that was changed is the Levitical priesthood, ceremonial law. The law of sacrifice fulfilled in the death of the lamb of GOD.

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Your statement "In other words, we are under a New Covenant with New Commands." does not appear to belong with the verse quoted.

The Bible has to be read as a whole. Jesus said that you have heard it said an eye for an eye, etc. but He says we are not to turn the other cheek if we are struck (physically). Jesus says, but I SAY UNTO YOU. Jesus is making a change in the Law. He is giving a new commandment that He gave to prepare men for the New Covenant. For the New Covenant that will go into effect with His death. Jesus also says we are to pray and do good towards our enemies. Yet, in the OT, God commanded His people to destroy their enemies. This is a change in the Law. God tells Peter to eat unclean animals (Which is a violation of OT Law). Again, this is a new commandment under the New Covenant. This is the change in "God's laws" to man. There are many changes in the "Laws of God" and not just an abrogation of certain aspects of the Old Law. There are many New Commandments we are given that are not given in the Old.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Jesus says, but I SAY UNTO YOU. Jesus is making a change in the Law. .

No, he is not.

"You have heard....but I say" was a common way for a rabbi to introduce his interpretation of a commandment of the Torah. It was not an abolition of the Torah.

A tanna recited before R. Johanan: All the slaughterings may be performed by a lay Israelite with the exception of that of the [red] heifer. R. Johanan said to him: Go out and teach it in the street! We do not find that slaughtering is disqualified [if performed] by a lay Israelite. Nor would R. Johanan not listen only to a tanna [in this matter] he would not even listen to his own master, for, whereas R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: The slaughtering of the heifer by a lay Israelite is invalid [he added]: But I say, it is valid, for we do not find that slaughtering [of sacrifices] by a lay Israelite is invalid. - Talmud, Yoma 43b


But it is taught: R. Judah said: Meir used to say: One may immerse in the top one, but I say: [One may immerse only] in the bottom one, but not in the top one! He replied: If it is [expressly] taught, it is taught. - Talmud, Chagigah 19b

Raba said to Rabbah b. Mari: Whence can be derived the lesson taught by our Rabbis that one who solicits mercy for his fellow while he himself is in need of the same thing, [will be answered first]? — He replied: As it is written: And the Lord changed the fortune of Job when he prayed for his friends. He said to him: You say it is from that text, but I say it is from this text: ‘And Abraham prayed unto God and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maidservants,’ and immediately after it Says: And the Lord remembered Sarah as he had said, etc., [i.e.] as Abraham had [prayed and] said regarding Abimelech. - Talmud Baba Kama 92a

Jesus was very clear, he did not come to abolish the Torah (Matthew 5:17-20)
 
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No, he is not.

"You have heard....but I say" was a common way for a rabbi to introduce his interpretation of a commandment of the Torah. It was not an abolition of the Torah.

A tanna recited before R. Johanan: All the slaughterings may be performed by a lay Israelite with the exception of that of the [red] heifer. R. Johanan said to him: Go out and teach it in the street! We do not find that slaughtering is disqualified [if performed] by a lay Israelite. Nor would R. Johanan not listen only to a tanna [in this matter] he would not even listen to his own master, for, whereas R. Johanan said in the name of R. Simeon b. Jehozadak: The slaughtering of the heifer by a lay Israelite is invalid [he added]: But I say, it is valid, for we do not find that slaughtering [of sacrifices] by a lay Israelite is invalid. - Talmud, Yoma 43b


But it is taught: R. Judah said: Meir used to say: One may immerse in the top one, but I say: [One may immerse only] in the bottom one, but not in the top one! He replied: If it is [expressly] taught, it is taught. - Talmud, Chagigah 19b

Raba said to Rabbah b. Mari: Whence can be derived the lesson taught by our Rabbis that one who solicits mercy for his fellow while he himself is in need of the same thing, [will be answered first]? — He replied: As it is written: And the Lord changed the fortune of Job when he prayed for his friends. He said to him: You say it is from that text, but I say it is from this text: ‘And Abraham prayed unto God and God healed Abimelech and his wife and his maidservants,’ and immediately after it Says: And the Lord remembered Sarah as he had said, etc., [i.e.] as Abraham had [prayed and] said regarding Abimelech. - Talmud Baba Kama 92a

Jesus was very clear, he did not come to abolish the Torah (Matthew 5:17-20)

I believe Jesus was saying that He came not to abolish the "Laws of God" in general. He was not speaking of just Torah, but God's law (generally speaking). He came not to abolish God's laws (generally speaking) but He came to fulfill them into their true intended purpose with the commandments given to us in the New Testament. For if a believer were to seriously try and follow the commands in the New Testament, they would find that many New Covenant commands conflict with the commands given to them in the Old Covenant.
 
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Such as...

See Post #21.

Also, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
So if the Old Law was still in effect, then the Law would not be changed then.
But if you were to read plainly Hebrews 7:12, that is what it says.
It says the Law has changed along with the priesthood being changed.
 
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Steve Petersen

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See Post #21.

Also, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
So if the Old Law was still in effect, then the Law would not be changed then.
But if you were to read plainly Hebrews 7:12, that is what it says.
It says the Law has changed along with the priesthood being changed.

Yet we have many commandments which God Himself were 'forever' or 'throughout your generations.' Virtually all of them have to do with the Temple, Holy Days, and sacrifices.

Passover/Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:14-20
Aaron and sons to tend the Menorah Exodus 27:20, 21

Aaron and sons to wear priestly garments Exodus 28:43

Aaron and sons to eat the heave offering Exodus 29:28

The continual burnt offering Exodus 29:42

Aaron and sons to burn incense Exodus 30:8

Aaron and sons to apply blood to altar horns Exodus 30:10

Aaron and sons to wash their hands and feet when ministering Exodus 30:19-21

Israel to observe the Sabbath Exodus 31:13, 16, 17

Aaron and sons to eat the trespass offering Leviticus 6:18

Aaron and sons to present meal offering upon anointing Leviticus 6:22

Priests not to drink wine when serving in Temple Leviticus 10:9

Israel to afflict their souls and rest on the Day of Atonement Leviticus 16:29

Israel to offer sacrifices only at the Temple Leviticus 17:5-7

Israel to observe Firstfruits Leviticus 23:12-14

Israel to observe Pentecost Leviticus 23:21

Israel to observe the Day of Atonement Leviticus 23:28-31

Israel to observe Feast of Tabernacles Leviticus 23:39-41

Aaron and sons to blow the trumpets Numbers 10:7, 8

Rules of various offerings Numbers 15:3-15

Levites to perform the Temple services Numbers 18:20-23

Ceremony of the Red Heifer Numbers 19:1-10

Cities of refuge Numbers 35:29

Priesthood of Aaron and his sons Deuteronomy 18:5
 
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Yet we have many commandments which God Himself were 'forever' or 'throughout your generations.' Virtually all of them have to do with the Temple, Holy Days, and sacrifices.

Passover/Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:14-20
Aaron and sons to tend the Menorah Exodus 27:20, 21

Aaron and sons to wear priestly garments Exodus 28:43

Aaron and sons to eat the heave offering Exodus 29:28

The continual burnt offering Exodus 29:42

Aaron and sons to burn incense Exodus 30:8

Aaron and sons to apply blood to altar horns Exodus 30:10

Aaron and sons to wash their hands and feet when ministering Exodus 30:19-21

Israel to observe the Sabbath Exodus 31:13, 16, 17

Aaron and sons to eat the trespass offering Leviticus 6:18

Aaron and sons to present meal offering upon anointing Leviticus 6:22

Priests not to drink wine when serving in Temple Leviticus 10:9

Israel to afflict their souls and rest on the Day of Atonement Leviticus 16:29

Israel to offer sacrifices only at the Temple Leviticus 17:5-7

Israel to observe Firstfruits Leviticus 23:12-14

Israel to observe Pentecost Leviticus 23:21

Israel to observe the Day of Atonement Leviticus 23:28-31

Israel to observe Feast of Tabernacles Leviticus 23:39-41

Aaron and sons to blow the trumpets Numbers 10:7, 8

Rules of various offerings Numbers 15:3-15

Levites to perform the Temple services Numbers 18:20-23

Ceremony of the Red Heifer Numbers 19:1-10

Cities of refuge Numbers 35:29

Priesthood of Aaron and his sons Deuteronomy 18:5

In regards to the Old Law still being in effect today:

Well, if such were the case, then we would have many contradictions in the New Testament that says that the Old Law has ended.

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory."
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision,
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).
The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath,
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).
Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath,
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).​

As for the word "forever" in the Bible:

Well, the word "forever" can also be used in a temporal sense in the Scriptures.

Take for example Philemon 1:15. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" (Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord." (Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means based on the context.​
 
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DaveDavids

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The tittle corresponds to the tagin (decorative crown) on a Hebrew letter.

TAGIN - JewishEncyclopedia.com


Yes, there's really no point in reiterating what has already been stated several times, imo, especially when the concordances already plainly state the associations in both Hebrew and Greek, Steve

Truth be told I'm surprised you dug into Talmud but didn't mention ze'ira
 
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gomerian

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Mat 5:18

" For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled "

Not one after-added dot, comma, paragraph symbol, or chapter and verse number? Or not one word shall pass from the law, until all of the law et al shall be accomplished. That means Deuteronomy 13:13, also, is in play until the curses with which Moses cursed all lawbreakers shall come to pass in the 7 vials. Adultery is the sin of Babylon. Then Jesus says heaven and earth shall pass away, but His commandments will never pass away. And Deuteronomy 13:13 matches John's description of those who went out from them because they were never part of them... John calls them the against-Christ. And Jesus repeats the law of Moses, reinforcing it with not only actions but thoughts shall be judged.

Jesus never came to do away with the law, He only fulfilled the sacrificial portion... which He replaced with His atonement, and adds the absolute necessity of each and every one of us who offends our brother to go and make peace with our brother. Nor is there room for a priesthood of any kind, since Jesus says 'ye are all brethren, and shall all be taught of God, for ye shall all know Me.'
 
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DaveDavids

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By my studies Jesus was well schooled in gematria ( as all priests in his day were ), and whoever wrote the Revelation of John was also well acquainted with it, but that's kind of obvious when you look at what he quoted in the Tanakh

I thought somebody would have mentioned that the mathematical value of a " mark/sign/seal " in this system is not 666, but rather 400

The author/s of Revelation were obviously aware of this, because you derive 400 from 666 and 144,000
 
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Right, so I'll post this:



For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:18

ióta: iota
Original Word: ἰῶτα, τό
Part of Speech: Indeclinable Letter (Noun)
Transliteration: ióta
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-o'-tah)
Short Definition: a small letter of the Greek alphabet

Definition: iota, a small letter of the Greek alphabet, used in the NT (like yod, the Hebrew or rather Aramaic letter which was the smallest of all) to indicate the smallest part.

HELPS Word-studies

2503 iṓta ("jot" in the KJV) – "yōd, the smallest Hebrew (Aramaic) letter" (Souter). By analogy, the Hebrew letter yōd refers to the Greek letter, iōta (the smallest letter in the Greek alphabet).

And this again:


For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Matthew 5:18


Tittle

keraia: a little horn
Original Word: κεραία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: keraia
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-ah'-yah)
Short Definition: an apostrophe
Definition: a little hook, an apostrophe on letters of the alphabet, distinguishing them from other little letters, or a separation stroke between letters.
HELPS Word-studies
2762 keraía – properly, a little "horn," i.e. " 'a little hook, an apostrophe' on letters of the alphabet, distinguishing them from other like-letters, or a 'separation stroke' between letters" (Souter); a tittle (KJV).

["Tittle" comes from the Latin, titulus – the stroke above an abbreviated word – and later, any small mark.

"In Vay. R. 19 the guilt of altering one of them is pronounced so great that if it were done the world would be destroyed" (so McNeile).]





Those are the standard concordance listings



Wiki says:

The word " titlo " is a borrowing from the Greek "τίτλος", "title" (compare dated English tittle, )



The root word of " tittle " is


Horn


keras: a horn
Original Word: κέρας, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: keras
Phonetic Spelling: (ker'-as)
Short Definition: a horn
Definition: (a) a horn, (b) a horn-like projection at the corner of an altar, (c) a horn as a symbol of power.


HELPS Word-studies

2768 kéras– properly, an animal horn; (figuratively) an instrument of power, i.e. that overcomes by displaying overpowering strength.

[2768 /kéras ("horn") symbolizes the strength of (horned) bulls (see Ps 132:17).]



Now, I'd rather discuss the Akkadian cognate " qarnu " to the Hebrew " qeren " to the Greek " keras ", because then we get into some very deep studies that delve into early priestly sources, but we should stick to the thread topic and that's not what " I think " about the fact 666 is written as a nomen sacrum


...but rather the fact that it's overlooked

Very interesting stuff. I suspect that it's not overlooked but that we are just misunderstanding the line written above 666. I haven't done enough research to confirm that yet but 1 Nomen sacrum were an expression of reverence "The nomina sacra, however, form a special class of contractions; they were not made in order to conserve time or materials, but as expressions of reverence." The Text of the Gospels: Nomina Sacra: Their Origin and Usefulness 2 this site says it is mark of isopsephy not nomen sacrum citing a scholarly text:

"See also: The text of the New Testament: an introduction to the critical editions and to the theory and practice of modern textual criticism, Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 1995, plate 23, pg. 90.
By the black line above Chi Xi Stigma, an abbreviation is being indicated by the copyist, in this case indicating the characters represent their numerical values, rather than their alphabetic meaning. These each have a different numerical value. They are Chi = 600, Xi = 60, Stigma = 6. Papyrus 47 (P47) is considered to be perhaps the earliest extant copy of any portion of Revelation. Early church fathers within a few years of Revelation being penned were already applying isopsephy (Greek), gematria (Hebrew), or Roman numeral values to solve the riddle."
The Contextual Biblical Exegesis Of 666 In Revelation 13:18

I posted a thread on a similar topic of 666/616. To me, it doesn't make sense for them to be reverent towards 666/616 even if it is abbreviating Christ in the name because it would be an imitation of Christ not the real Christ . . . (if that were the correct interpretation of it)
Theory on the Number of the Beast

EDIT: another reason it isn't an abreviation: "ΧΣς is not 666. Χξς (or ΧΞς) is the proper spelling. "
" Not one jot or tittle shall pass away "
 
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By my studies Jesus was well schooled in gematria ( as all priests in his day were ), and whoever wrote the Revelation of John was also well acquainted with it, but that's kind of obvious when you look at what he quoted in the Tanakh

I thought somebody would have mentioned that the mathematical value of a " mark/sign/seal " in this system is not 666, but rather 400

The author/s of Revelation were obviously aware of this, because you derive 400 from 666 and 144,000

Ecclesiastes chapter 7 is the 666th chapter in the Bible. In this chapter it talks about counting as a part of wisdom (See Ecclesiastes 7:25, Ecclesiastes 7:27). In Revelation 13:18, John talks about counting as a part of wisdom, too. This number John mentions is 666 (i.e. the mark of the beast).

Side Note:

Pastor Mike Hoggard has some great videos on the topic of Biblical Numerics.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Ecclesiastes chapter 7 is the 666th chapter in the Bible. In this chapter it talks about counting as a part of wisdom (See Ecclesiastes 7:25, Ecclesiastes 7:27). In Revelation 13:18, John talks about counting as a part of wisdom, too. This number John mentions is 666 (i.e. the mark of the beast).

Side Note:

Pastor Mike Hoggard has some great videos on the topic of Biblical Numerics.

So now chapter and verse divisions are divinely inspired? Really? There are not chapter divisions in the oldest manuscripts.
 
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So now chapter and verse divisions are divinely inspired? Really? There are not chapter divisions in the oldest manuscripts.

You cannot say John 3:16 to a Christian without them knowing what that is. It is one of the most beloved verses among Christians (among many). So if they are treasured among believers, no doubt God would find it good because it helps His people. God wants us to place His Word on the inside of our hearts. Memorizing Scripture is more easy if you have a verse number (instead of not having one).

In other words, God is not static and He does not exist just in the past in some ancient language or manuscript alone. God operates in the lives of believers today (Who have His Word in a format that would include these verse numbers).
 
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So now chapter and verse divisions are divinely inspired? Really? There are not chapter divisions in the oldest manuscripts.

Also, this is not the only coincidence involving the chapter and verse numbers in the Bible, either. If you were to watch Pastor Mike Hoggard's videos on the King James Code, you would be in absolute of awe of the divinity of God's Word.
 
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I've just noticed something while studying Greek manuscripts and was wondering if someone can help clear this up for me

It stems from this verse:

Mat 5:18

" For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled "

I look this up in several Greek concordances and it says the following:

Tittle

κεραια keraia {ker-ah'-yah} from a presumed derivative of the base of 2768;; n f AV - tittle 2; 2 1) a little horn 2) extremity, apex, point 2a) used by grammarians of the accents and diacritical points. Jesus used it of the little lines or projections, by which the Hebrew letters in other respects similar differ from one another; the meaning is, Vnot even the minutest part of the law shall perishV.

" lines and projections " in Hebrew would likely be tagin or dagesh , while in Greek this refers to the literary convention of the " titlo "

--------------

Next concordance said:

Tittle

Strong's Concordance
keraia: a little horn
Original Word: κεραία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: keraia
Phonetic Spelling: (ker-ah'-yah)
Short Definition: an apostrophe
Definition: a little hook, an apostrophe on letters of the alphabet, distinguishing them from other little letters, or a separation stroke between letters.
HELPS Word-studies

2762 keraíaproperly, a little "horn," i.e. " 'a little hook, an apostrophe' on letters of the alphabet, distinguishing them from other like-letters, or a 'separation stroke' between letters" (Souter); a tittle (KJV).

["Tittle" comes from the Latin, titulus – the stroke above an abbreviated word – and later, any small mark.

"In Vay. R. 19 the guilt of altering one of them is pronounced so great that if it were done the world would be destroyed" (so McNeile).]

--------------------

A tittle then is used over sacred names / objects in Greek manuscripts, known as a " nomen sacrum " ( sacred name )

The words themselves are abbreviated

Metzger lists 15 such expressions from Greek papyri: the Greek counterparts of:

God, Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son, Spirit, David, Cross, Mother, Father, Israel, Savior, Man, Jerusalem, and Heaven.

These nomina sacra are all found in Greek manuscripts of the 3rd century and earlier, except Mother, which appears in the 4th


So what I am curious about here, is the fact that New Testament authors took the common abbreviated Christogram

ΧΣ

...which is normally written with the " little horn " ( titlo )

and they affixed the letter stigma ϛ, (στίγμα), which is originally a common Greek noun meaning "a mark, dot, puncture", or generally " a sign ",

to the Christogram

ΧΣϛ


...which they then wrote a titlo ( little horn ) over

However ΧΣϛ ( 666 ) does not seem to belong on the list:

God, Lord, Jesus, Christ, Son, Spirit, David, Cross, Mother, Father, Israel, Savior, Man, Jerusalem, and Heaven



...yet it was clearly written as it belongs on this list, as a " sacred name / object "

So did New Testament authors know something we don't ?

I would also raise the question of academic / theological bias, because people are clearly choosing to overlook this, and if you recall the start of this post clearly says:

" For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled "


( note to mods, if this is in the wrong forum, please move it to the appropriate place, thanks :)




It sounds like you have invested a lot of time and energy into this. Sadly, I think you are chasing a rabbit down a rabbit hole, chasing a wild goose, losing the forest among the trees. In other words, you are missing the point because you are getting sidetracked by a meaningless piece of minutia.

Jesus is making a figurative statement here. He is saying that not even the smallest brushstroke will pass away from the law until the world ends. By smallest brush stroke, he doesn't mean a LITERAL jot and tittle, he means smallest element of the law, like keeping linen and wool separate. If you get bogged down on the brush stroke, then you are taking literally what is a metaphor, and that is a gross misunderstanding of the passage.
 
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1 John 4:1

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You cannot say John 3:16 to a Christian without them knowing what that is. It is one of the most beloved verses among Christians (among many). So if they are treasured among believers, no doubt God would find it good because it helps His people. God wants us to place His Word on the inside of our hearts. Memorizing Scripture is more easy if you have a verse number (instead of not having one).

In other words, God is not static and He does not exist just in the past in some ancient language or manuscript alone. God operates in the lives of believers today (Who have His Word in a format that would include these verse numbers).
This is the bandwagon fallacy. In addition, the majority of believers don't consider the chapter and verses to be symbolic just a matter of reference. (you don't often hear people making the argument that certain verses are significant because of the numbers) so by your own argument God wouldn't insert symbolic meanings into this framework. Also, if I divided up my Bible into whatever verse numbering system I preferred, would I be able to look at the 666th chapter and find something relevant there? You do realize that there were different numbering systems for quite some time and there are still different numbering systems for the Psalms that you can see in catholic bibles. Maybe an earlier one was the inspired one and we are partially apostate for not agreeing with it . . . that doesn't make sense.


"While the Bible is divided into chapter and verse today, these divisions developed over time and were not in the original manuscripts, with few exceptions.

"One exception is the book of Psalms, which is divided into 150 different chapters, each of which is a different psalm. Those divisions are original, because this was the hymnbook for the Jewish Temple, and the different psalms were different hymns.

"So it’s ironic that different editions of the book of Psalms today do not have the same chapter numbers. . .
Why Are the Psalms Numbered Differently?


Early manuscripts of the biblical texts did not contain the chapter and verse divisions in the numbered form familiar to modern readers. . .

Archbishop Stephen Langton and Cardinal Hugo de Sancto Caro developed different schemas for systematic division of the Bible in the early 13th century. It is the system of Archbishop Langton on which the modern chapter divisions are based.[5][6][7]
Chapters and verses of the Bible - Wikipedia
 
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This is the bandwagon fallacy. In addition, the majority of believers don't consider the chapter and verses to be symbolic just a matter of reference. (you don't often hear people making the argument that certain verses are significant because of the numbers) so by your own argument God wouldn't insert symbolic meanings into this framework. Also, if I divided up my Bible into whatever verse numbering system I preferred, would I be able to look at the 666th chapter and find something relevant there? You do realize that there were different numbering systems for quite some time and there are still different numbering systems for the Psalms that you can see in catholic bibles. Maybe an earlier one was the inspired one and we are partially apostate for not agreeing with it . . . that doesn't make sense.


"While the Bible is divided into chapter and verse today, these divisions developed over time and were not in the original manuscripts, with few exceptions.

"One exception is the book of Psalms, which is divided into 150 different chapters, each of which is a different psalm. Those divisions are original, because this was the hymnbook for the Jewish Temple, and the different psalms were different hymns.

"So it’s ironic that different editions of the book of Psalms today do not have the same chapter numbers. . .
Why Are the Psalms Numbered Differently?


Early manuscripts of the biblical texts did not contain the chapter and verse divisions in the numbered form familiar to modern readers. . .

Archbishop Stephen Langton and Cardinal Hugo de Sancto Caro developed different schemas for systematic division of the Bible in the early 13th century. It is the system of Archbishop Langton on which the modern chapter divisions are based.[5][6][7]
Chapters and verses of the Bible - Wikipedia

Yes, I realize the origin of chapter and verse numbers. I was not born yesterday. That still does not change anything that I have said.

If you want to see my side of where I am coming from it is probably best that you see the study for yourself from Pastor Mike Hoggard.


While I do not believe everything Mike teaches, I do believe his teachings on biblical numerics will blow your mind (if you stick with his video presentations in their entirety).
 
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1 John 4:1

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Yes, I realize the origin of chapter and verse numbers. I was not born yesterday. That still does not change anything that I have said.

If you want to see my side of where I am coming from it is probably best that you see the study for yourself from Pastor Mike Hoggard.


While I do not believe everything Mike teaches, I do believe his teachings on biblical numerics will blow your mind (if you stick with his video presentations in their entirety).

Props to him for using Linux as an OS. (I'm a computer scientist) I don't have time to try and evaluate his teaching right now. My first impression of it is that it is just finding patterns that we like in the Bible. (both the pope and martin luther accused the other having the value of 666 in their name or title somewhere) I think these are interesting and fun I just don't think they can be used to prove anything about scripture. It reminds me of part of a novel I read a while back:


Listen. In gematriya, the words "this world" come out one hundred sixtythree, and the words "the-world-to-come" come out one hundred fifty-four. The difference between "this world" and the "the world-tocom,' comes out to nine. Nine is half of eighteen. Eighteen is chai, life. In this world there is only half of chai. We are only half alive in this world! Only half alive!' A whisper went through the crowd at the tables, and I could see heads nod and lips smile. They had been waiting for this apparently, the gematriya, and they strained forward to listen. One of my teachers in school had told me about gematriya. Each letter of the Hebrew alphabet is also a number, so that every Hebrew word has a numerical value. The words for 'this world' in Hebrew is 'olam hazeh', and by adding the numerical value of each letter, the total numerical value of the word becomes one hundred and sixty-three. I had heard others do this before, and I enjoyed listening because sometimes they were quite clever and ingenious. I was beginning to feel relaxed again, and I listened carefully. 'Hear me now. Listen. How can we make our lives full? How can we fill our lives so that we are eighteen, chai, and not nine, not half chai? Rabbi Joshua son of Levi teaches us, "Whoever does not labor in the Torah is said to be under the divine censure." He is a nozuf, a person whom the Master of the Universe hates! A righteous man, a tzaddik, studies Torah, for it is written, "For his delight is in the Torah of God, and over His Torah doth he meditate day and night." In gematriya, "nozuf" comes out one hundred forty-three, and "tzaddik" comes out two hundred and four. What is the difference between "nozuf" and "tzaddik"? Sixty-one. To whom does a tzaddik dedicate his life? To the Master of the Universe! La-el, to God! The word, "La-el" in gematriya is sixty-one! It is a life dedicated to God that makes the difference between the nozuf and the tzaddik!' Another murmur of approval went through the crowd. Reb Saunders was very good at gematriya, I thought. I was really enjoying myself now. 'And now listen to me further. In gematriya, the letter of the word "traklin,” hall, the hall that refers to the world-to-come comes out three hundred ninety-nine, and "prozdor," the vestibule, the vestibule that is this world, comes out five hundred thirteen. Take "prozdor" from "traklin," and we have one hundred fourteen. Now listen to me. A righteous man, we said, is two hundred four. A righteous man lives by Torah. Torah is mayim, water; the great and holy rabbis always compare Torah to water. The word "mayim" in gematriya is ninety. Take "mayim" from" tzaddik" and we also have one hundred fourteen. From this we learn that the righteous man who removes himself from Torah also removes himself from the world-to-come! ' The whisper of delight was loud this time, and men nodded their heads and smiled. Some of them were even poking each other with their elbows to indicate their pleasure. That one had really been clever. I started to go over it again in my mind. 'We see that without Torah there is only half a life. We see that without Torah we are dust. We see that without Torah we are abominations.' He was saying this quietly, almost as if it were a litany. His eyes were still open, and he was looking directly at Danny now. 'When we study Torah, then the Master of the Universe listens. Then he hears our words. Then He will fulfill our wishes. For the Master of the Universe promises strength to them who preoccupy themselves in Torah, as it is written, "So ye may be strong", and He promises length of days, as it is written. "So that your days may be lengthened." May Torah be a fountain of waters to all who drink from it, and may it bring to us the Messiah speedily and in our day. Amen!' A chorus of loud and scattered amens answered. http://www.mpsaz.org/mtnview/staff/...ature9r/persepolis/files/the_chosen_novel.pdf
 
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