Thoughts from Israel on the war against Saddam

stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

The general feeling here is overwhelming support for the US- and UK-led allied struggle against a savage, probably psychotic, thoroughly untrustworthy and murderous tyrant Saddam Hussein. Anyone who believes that this crisis could be, or could have been, resolved by peaceful means via the UN, inspections and the like is, I believe, either deluding himself, out-and-out lying, dangerously naive or has an ulterior motive (I guess that Gerhard Schroeder couldn't wait for Oktoberfest). The sooner the world acts against him the better. The longer they wait, the more difficult & costly it will be. Hitler could have been stopped, almost painlessly, during the 1935 Rhineland crisis but the UK and France chose to stick their heads in the sand & do nothing. Someone who sticks his/her head in the sand, thereby exposes another part of his/her anatomy & that's exactly where the UK & France got it in 1939. It's the same dynamic with Saddam. Israel recently marked the 10th anniversary of the passing of the late Menahem Begin (may his memory be for a blessing!). Not only should he be remembered for making peace with Egypt, but the world should also thank him for destroying Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981. I don't even want to think of what Saddam could have done with nukes. Israel has known the brunt of Saddam's twisted wrath; he must be put of the Iraqi people's, and the world's, misery once and for all. Whoever doesn't support Saddam's removal is, in effect, his tacit partner in his reign of terror, in torturing people with cattle prods, hanging menstruating women upside down, using rape squads, etc. Nobody here relishes the war but we recognize that sometimes such measures are necessary. We pray that the operation will be over as soon as possible with as little loss of life as possible; any lives that are lost are on Saddam's head alone. (The government has set up a National Information Center for the duration of the crisis; it's at <http://www.nic.gov.il/mfm/InformationCenterWeb/Main/MissionHome.asp>).

Wendy took Yohanan (6) to kindergarten yesterday & along with his lunch, took his gas mask. Wendy told me that it was very striking & poignant to see the tots coming to kindergarten with their gas mask kits & to see all the kits neatly stacked up on a shelf. 6-year-olds with gas mask kits. Yohanan recognizes Saddam Hussein when he sees him on TV. I tell him, "Saddam is a bad man because he likes to hurt people." (Can anyone think of a better definition of bad than that?) I think that Yohanan is too young (thank God) to be really worried about what's going on. If Wendy & I are calm & nonplussed, then he'll pick that up from us. (I've always said that there are 2 things that I will not teach Da Boyz & they are fear and bigotry.)

Deuteronomy 25:3 says that a court may give no more than 40 stripes with a whip in order to chastize a guilty person. Our Sages ruled that a rabbinical court could give no more than 39 stripes (our Sages were afraid that if the court was counting towards 40, they might miscount & accidentally give 41 stripes, which would be a violation of the Torah, so they set the maximum at 39 figuring that if the court was counting towards 39 & miscounted and gave out 40 stripes, that would still be OK). 12 years ago, exactly 39 SCUDs fell on Israel. 39 stripes to chastize, 39 SCUDs on Israel...it made a lot of people here wonder.

We divide the Book of Psalms into 30 sections, with each one to be read on each day of the (Hebrew) month. Today is the 17th day of the month of Adar II. (Our calendar is a lunar calendar that we adjust to keep pace with the sun by inserting a leap month 7 times in a 19 year cycle; the leap month is always a second month of Adar, see<http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm> ) I read the Psalms for the 17th of the month, Psalms 83 to 87, just after saying the morning prayers. Very interesting to read such chapters at the current time given everything that's going on.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 

Auntie

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stillsmallvoice,

Thanks for this post. I agree with the things you say about Saddam Hussein, he is a murderer of the worst kind. What is most alarming is that so many in the world want to deny the truth about Saddam Hussein.

I am very sorry for the people who will die in this war, and yes, Saddam carries the guilt for every death. I only wish Saddam could have been taken out many years ago.

I am very thankful to Israel and Menahem Begin for destroying Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981. We have many things to be thankful for, and I believe one day, the world will be thankful we got rid of this monster dictator Saddam Hussein.


Auntie.
 
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Hank

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Hmm, stillsmallvoice you cited Psalms 82 – are you saying this is God's war?

No offence, I am pro this war for pragmatic reasons, but I can't see god in this. There are many ruthless brutal rulers all over right now, shall we invade them all? Shall we spread free enterprise and democracy as we did spread Christianity?
 
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ACougar

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I am glad to see Sadam removed from power, my concern about this war comes from two things. First, it appears we have circumvented the authority of the United Nations and taken the mantle of World Police upon ourselves. That seems to be a very dangerous seed to plant, and I wonder what we will reap from it in years to come... The Second is no one seems to know what Iraq is going to look like ten years from now, who is going to keep this almost arbitrarily constructed country together and if no one manages will all the war and strife that ensues be less than what the Iraqi people suffer today? Already the Turkish Army is making incursions into Northern Iraq, what are we going to do if the Iranian Army does the same thing? WWIII is worse than Sadam Hussain, even if only by a little.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Lessee here...

Hank posted:

Hmm, stillsmallvoice you cited Psalms 82 – are you saying this is God's war?

No, not at all. I personally thought that the text of some of the Psalms in the reading was very interesting when juxtaposed to current events. I can barely speak for myself & wouldn't dream of daring/presuming to speak for God!

There are many ruthless brutal rulers all over right now, shall we invade them all?

No but one must fight evil where & when one can.

Shall we spread free enterprise and democracy as we did spread Christianity?

I suspect that Pres. Bush & PM Blair, et. al. are being less than entirely candid :rolleyes: when they say that their goal is a democratic Iraq (or Palestinian state for that matter). They know very well that not one member of the Arab League is democratic and/or has a genuinely independent judiciary, rule of law, etc. One cannot make something out of nothing.

I'll have to decline to comment on the spreading of Christianity part.

ACougar posted:

First, it appears we have circumvented the authority of the United Nations and taken the mantle of World Police upon ourselves. That seems to be a very dangerous seed to plant, and I wonder what we will reap from it in years to come...

UN-Shmoo N! Who gives a whit about the UN and its charter? The UN is rapidly becoming like its less-than-distinguished predecessor, the League of Nations. The UN failed to stop the massacres in Rwanda, the killings in Bosnia, the ruthless suppression of the Tibetan people & stifling of dissent in China, Saddam's use of mustard gas against the Kurds in Chalabja, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc. just like the League failed to stop Mussolini's devouring of Ethiopia, Japan's continual aggression in China, the rise of Fascism and Nazism, etc., etc., etc. Please let me cite Ethiopian Emperor Haile Selassie's impassioned June 1936 appeal (see <http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/selassie.htm> for the whole speech) to the League of Nations (which the United Nations is rapidly becoming) against the actions of another barbarous & murderous tyrant, Benito Mussolini:

...I have heard it asserted that the inadequate sanctions already applied have not achieved their object. At no time, and under no circumstances could sanctions that were intentionally inadequate, intentionally badly applied, stop an aggressor. This is not a case of the impossibility of stopping an aggressor but of the refusal to stop an aggressor...It is international morality which is at stake and not the Articles of the Covenant.

Is there anything in the above excerpt which does/can not apply to the current situation vis-a-vis Iraq and the United Nations? Just as it was international morality that was at stake then and not the Articles of the [League of Nations] Covenant, so it is international morality which is at stake now & not the United Nations Charter. We should build the whole edifice of international law based on the vagaries & whims of the veto-wielding Jacques Chirac, Vladimir Putin & whoever-it-is-who-is-now-in-charge-in-Beijing? (The Chechens and the Tibetans might disagree.) How is it right that a lack of will and/or selfish ulterior motives be enshrined as international law (due to the veto power that Stalin, of all people, insisted be written into the UN Charter)?

Turkey has been making on-and-off incursions into northern Iraq for years, more often than not in cahoots with the Iraqi Kurdish groups. Unless Iraq decides to attack Iran again, I don't see the ayatollahs (who are having enough domestic problems of their own lately) making anything other than smash-and-run raids into Iraq against Iranian opposition groups based there. I don't think that either Ankara or Tehran would be willing to risk international opprobrium by annexing or permanently occupying parts of Iraq.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Edouard

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Remeber, God appoints rulers and kings over nations.
remember the story of Joseph.

If he had not been traded and became the second highest in command during the time of Pharaohs. Where would his family have been ?

Remeber the story of Moses, God hardened Pharaoh's heart so His will might be done. We never know God's plan until he has revealed it to us.

In freeing the Iraqi people, what better missionary ground to be speaking to a people that need God! This may even strengthen our roots in the Islamic community and allow more christian men and women into the african nations. We never know God's plan:)

Edouard
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Grace and peace be with you.
The hope and love of the Lord God Almighty and Love of Christ ascend upon you. !
 
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Wolseley

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I am glad to see Sadam removed from power
I think we all are. :)
my concern about this war comes from two things. First, it appears we have circumvented the authority of the United Nations
The UN has little authority, at least in my book. They certainly are not above a nation's sovereign right to defend itself, or to to look after its own interests. Everybody seems to think the UN is this Big Brother-like figure that everyone needs to kowtow to. 'Tain't so.
and taken the mantle of World Police upon ourselves. That seems to be a very dangerous seed to plant
I wouldn't say so much "World Policeman" except within the context of making sure that America and Americans (along with our friends) are safe, anywhere in the world. I think that Kosovo was likely our last real "World Policeman" role, and that was before 9/11. We are post-9/11 now, and the situation is totally, completely different. People seem to keep forgetting that things are not like they were before September 11, 2001; it will never be like it was before, ever again. This is a totally new era, and the post-WWII/Cold War/post-Cold War world we all grew up in and remember is gone forever, so we might just as well make up our minds to forget about it, and adjust to the new realities.
and I wonder what we will reap from it in years to come
I'd say most of that depends on the terrorists. They might go out of business, to nobody's sorrow, or they might keep right on with their mischief and be exterminated. Ann Coulter made a very harsh, but very insightful comment in an article last year; she said "Americans don't want to make Islamic fanatics love us. We want to make them die." Her point was that we are facing people who are interested in only one thing: the complete and utter destruction of the United States of America. We may have our problems and our faults, but choosing between our problems and faults and some wild-eyed Muslim extremist who beats his wives and teaches his children to murder the "infidels" and advocates forced conversion to his own screwy ideas at the end of a gun barrel, I'll take us, thank you very much.
The Second is no one seems to know what Iraq is going to look like ten years from now
No one knows what we're going to look like ten years from now.
who is going to keep this almost arbitrarily constructed country together
It may break up into new countries. It's hard to say. The Middle East is pretty much the same thing as Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were: artificial countries that aren't based on race, ethnicity, geographic features, language, culture, or religion. They're just a bunch of lines drawn through the desert, based on the design of the British High Commissioner in 1923. We can blame Mr. Sykes and Mr. Picot for much of that.
and if no one manages will all the war and strife that ensues be less than what the Iraqi people suffer today? Already the Turkish Army is making incursions into Northern Iraq, what are we going to do if the Iranian Army does the same thing? WWIII is worse than Sadam Hussain, even if only by a little.
The whole purpose of this exercise, other than to remove S.H., is to end the suffering of the Iraqi people. There is, of course, always the possibility that this could expand into a 3rd world war, but hopefully that will not come to pass. I don't think the Iranians have any designs on Iraqi territory, and the Turks have stated that they are only interested in controlling the flow of Kurdish refugess into Turkey, not in making territorial gains into Iraqi property.
 
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