B'midbar -- Shavuot-- Pentecost

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Yes they are the same dates but they celebrate different things. Shavuot celebrates the giving of the Torah to Israel and Pentecost celebrates the coming of the Holy Spirit to the Ekklesia. When I go to Synagogue for Shavuot, there is no mention of the Holy Spirit coming, and when I go to church for Pentecost, there is no mention of the giving of the Torah. I feel any conflation of the two seems rather forced.
Shavuot and Pentecost are the exact same holy days. When Shavuot was first given, it was not a celebration of the giving of Torah, but a celebration of the firstfruits of the wheat harvest which would then allow for the main wheat harvest to begin. When the 50th day came in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit was the former rain needed to allow the firstfruits of the wheat harvest of souls to begin forming/growing. The recipients of that outpouring of the Spirit were celebrating Shavuot on that 50th day. Pentecost/Shavuot has yet to be totally fulfilled. It will totally be fulfilled when all the firstfruits are offered up to YHWH prior to the main wheat harvest of souls.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Shavuot and Pentecost are the exact same holy days. When Shavuot was first given, it was not a celebration of the giving of Torah, but a celebration of the firstfruits of the wheat harvest which would then allow for the main wheat harvest to begin. When the 50th day came in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit was the former rain needed to allow the firstfruits of the wheat harvest of souls to begin forming/growing. The recipients of that outpouring of the Spirit were celebrating Shavuot on that 50th day. Pentecost/Shavuot has yet to be totally fulfilled. It will totally be fulfilled when all the firstfruits are offered up to YHWH prior to the main wheat harvest of souls.
Pentecost isnt a celebration of any first fruits. It is not agrarian. It isnt even on the same day.
 
Upvote 0

chunkofcoal

Messianic Christian
Sep 30, 2004
1,825
455
✟83,228.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I was just reading about 'the discrepancies between the sacrifices in Ezekiel and the Torah' and some of the holidays/holy days are not mentioned in Ezekiel, including Shavuot. Any thoughts from an MJ perspective as to why? It seems like that point might have some significance given the Shavuot/Pentecost connection.

The Discrepancies between the Sacrifices in Ezekiel and the Torah - TheTorah.com
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Pentecost isnt a celebration of any first fruits. It is not agrarian. It isnt even on the same day.
Just because Pentecost is not agrarian today does not mean it wasn't back then.

Pentecost was on the 50th day. Shavuot is on the 50th day. Are you saying the count to Pentecost did not begin on the same day the count to Shavuot began? If so, please explain.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Just because Pentecost is not agrarian today does not mean it wasn't back then.

Pentecost was on the 50th day. Shavuot is on the 50th day. Are you saying the count to Pentecost did not begin on the same day the count to Shavuot began? If so, please explain.
I don't think that the celebration of the coming of the Holy Spirit (which is what the feast day of Pentecost is) was added to the Church calendar until later in history, after Easter was added, since it is 50 days after Easter. To say it one more time, the giving of the Torah and the feast of first fruits is not a Holy Day on the Church calendar. Only the Messianic Jews of the earliest times celebrated Shavuot.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Shavuot and Pentecost are the exact same holy days. When Shavuot was first given, it was not a celebration of the giving of Torah, but a celebration of the firstfruits of the wheat harvest which would then allow for the main wheat harvest to begin. When the 50th day came in Acts 2, the Holy Spirit was the former rain needed to allow the firstfruits of the wheat harvest of souls to begin forming/growing. The recipients of that outpouring of the Spirit were celebrating Shavuot on that 50th day. Pentecost/Shavuot has yet to be totally fulfilled. It will totally be fulfilled when all the firstfruits are offered up to YHWH prior to the main wheat harvest of souls.
This interpretation is a modern Messianic interpretation (and not all Messianics at that).
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,488
760
✟119,587.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Pentecost isnt a celebration of any first fruits. It is not agrarian. It isn't even on the same day.
Pentecost is associated with Christianity ~ Shavuot is associated with Judaism
Just because Pentecost is not agrarian today does not mean it wasn't back then.
Shavuot History: Talmudic Development | My Jewish Learning
Exodus 23:14-17 (verse 16 in bold is the moedim known as Shavuot)
14 Three times thou shalt celebrate a feast unto me in the year:
15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib, for in it thou didst come out from Egypt; and none shall appear before
me empty),
16 And the feast of the harvest of the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field, and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.​
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I don't think that the celebration of the coming of the Holy Spirit (which is what the feast day of Pentecost is) was added to the Church calendar until later in history, after Easter was added, since it is 50 days after Easter. To say it one more time, the giving of the Torah and the feast of first fruits is not a Holy Day on the Church calendar. Only the Messianic Jews of the earliest times celebrated Shavuot.
The feast day of that fell on the 50th day in Acts 2 existed BEFORE the Holy Spirit was poured out. The disciples as well as other devout men from every nation were gathered on that 50th day because it was the holy feast day of Shavuot (a pilgrimage feast). Are you unaware that Shavuot was celebrated since the time of Moses after counting seven full weeks (Leviticus 23:15-16; Deuteronomy 16:9)? The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was perfect timing to cause the firstfruits of believers to begin forming. Are you also unaware that all believers are spoken of as wheat (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) and that there are firstfruits among that wheat (Revelation 14:4)? The (wheat) harvest of souls (the resurrection) will not take place until the firstfruits of that spiritual wheat harvest takes place first (the firstfruits will be resurrected first).

It is totally irrelevant when the celebration of the coming of the Holy Spirit was added to the "Church calendar" since the "Church calendar" is bogus, having been created by men who abolished YHWH's holy feast days and substituted their man made holidays of Easter and Christmas and whatever other unholy days they added.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
The feast day of that fell on the 50th day in Acts 2 existed BEFORE the Holy Spirit was poured out. The disciples as well as other devout men from every nation were gathered on that 50th day because it was the holy feast day of Shavuot (a pilgrimage feast). Are you unaware that Shavuot was celebrated since the time of Moses after counting seven full weeks (Leviticus 23:15-16; Deuteronomy 16:9)? The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was perfect timing to cause the firstfruits of believers to begin forming. Are you also unaware that all believers are spoken of as wheat (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43) and that there are firstfruits among that wheat (Revelation 14:4)? The (wheat) harvest of souls (the resurrection) will not take place until the firstfruits of that spiritual wheat harvest takes place first (the firstfruits will be resurrected first).

It is totally irrelevant when the celebration of the coming of the Holy Spirit was added to the "Church calendar" since the "Church calendar" is bogus, having been created by men who abolished YHWH's holy feast days and substituted their man made holidays of Easter and Christmas and whatever other unholy days they added.
Since I am Christian as well as a Messianic Jew, I obviously don't consider the Church calendar "bogus." I keep Shavuot (the giving of the Torah) with my Jewish friends using the Jewish calendar, and Pentecost (the coming of the Holy Spirit) via the Church calendar. Even those who are solely MJ in the major denominations such as UMJC are not opposed to the Church having its calendar.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Pentecost is associated with Christianity ~ Shavuot is associated with Judaism
Exactly. And because I'm the kind of Messianic Jew who exists WITHIN a Christian church, I celebrate both.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Since I am Christian as well as a Messianic Jew, I obviously don't consider the Church calendar "bogus." I keep Shavuot (the giving of the Torah) with my Jewish friends using the Jewish calendar, and Pentecost (the coming of the Holy Spirit) via the Church calendar. Even those who are solely MJ in the major denominations such as UMJC are not opposed to the Church having its calendar.
I do not believe in compromising truth. Either one calendar is right and one is wrong or both are wrong, but both cannot be right when the same "holy day" falls on different days. Denominations such as UMJC should be opposed to the "Church" having a calendar that deceives people into keeping the wrong days holy.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
I do not believe in compromising truth. Either one calendar is right and one is wrong or both are wrong, but both cannot be right when the same "holy day" falls on different days. Denominations such as UMJC should be opposed to the "Church" having a calendar that deceives people into keeping the wrong days holy.
Calendars are not right/wrong. They are simply conveniences for keeping track of time. It's like arguing whether the Eastern Calendar or Western Calendar is better. It's just all silly.
 
Upvote 0

gadar perets

Messianic Hebrew
May 11, 2016
4,252
1,042
70
NC
Visit site
✟130,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Unitarian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Calendars are not right/wrong. They are simply conveniences for keeping track of time. It's like arguing whether the Eastern Calendar or Western Calendar is better. It's just all silly.
Teaching people to trample on holy time is not silly. It is sin. YHWH's calendar keeps track of holy time and the "Church's calendar" keeps track of unholy time.
 
Upvote 0