Ramadan points to Isa

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

It is about the middle of Ramada where millions are following the requirements to fast from sunrise to sunset. The requirements are not to consume anything during the fast and this has a redemptive reward to it if successful. Following this logic we must not stop at just food or water but it would have to go to microscopic levels where we discover the first breath upon sunrise nullifies the fast.

the requirements of Ramadan are similar to the law of Musa in the Taurat, particularly the Sabbath. During the Sabbath (also measured by sunset) you are not to work or cause anyone to work. But when you follow this logic you can't cook, clean, eat or bath, or even get out of bed because all of it is "work" The thread of this logic goes right down to breathing and again, like the fast, the first breath upon sunrise the law is broken.

The fast and the Sabbath share something in common, they cannot be accomplished and they point to someone greater who you has authority to give you the rewards. If Ramada's reward is redemptive then why take your chances at a tasks that cannot be done? Look to Isa and he will redeem you and give you far greater reward than the most pious and dedicated in the fast because he has the authority and he has the power.

Barney2.0 · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
It is about the middle of Ramada where millions are following the requirements to fast from sunrise to sunset. The requirements are not to consume anything during the fast and this has a redemptive reward to it if successful. Following this logic we must not stop at just food or water but it would have to go to microscopic levels where we discover the first breath upon sunrise nullifies the fast.

the requirements of Ramadan are similar to the law of Musa in the Taurat, particularly the Sabbath. During the Sabbath (also measured by sunrise to sunset) you are not to work or cause anyone to work. But when you follow this logic you can't cook, clean, eat or bath, or even get out of bed because all of it is "work" The thread of this logic goes right down to breathing and again, like the fast, the first breath upon sunrise the law is broken.

The fast and the Sabbath share something in common, they cannot be accomplished and they point to someone greater who you has authority to give you the rewards. If Ramada's reward is redemptive then why take your chances at a tasks that cannot be done? Look to Isa and he will redeem you and give you far greater reward than the most pious and dedicated in the fast.

Ramadan has its origins in pre Islamic times as an Arab pagan festival that was inserted into Islam.

tampasteve · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
the requirements of Ramadan are similar to the law of Musa in the Taurat, particularly the Sabbath. During the Sabbath (also measured by sunrise to sunset) you are not to work or cause anyone to work. But when you follow this logic you can't cook, clean, eat or bath, or even get out of bed because all of it is "work" The thread of this logic goes right down to breathing and again, like the fast, the first breath upon sunrise the law is broken.

The Sabbath is measured from sunset to sunset; generally starting from when one can see three stars in the sky on Friday until the appearance of three stars on Saturday, although in modern times one can find sabbath times from sources such as Chabad. I am not aware of any sage that has said eating, getting out of bed, or breathing is against the Law. This would be taking the Law to farcical levels. Keeping the sabbath is not really about reaping rewards from God, it is about doing what He said to do and to use the time to study and worship Him.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

tampasteve said:
The Sabbath is measured from sunset to sunset; generally starting from when one can see three stars in the sky on Friday until the appearance of three stars on Saturday, although in modern times one can find sabbath times from sources such as Chabad. I am not aware of any sage that has said eating, getting out of bed, or breathing is against the Law. This would be taking the Law to farcical levels. Keeping the sabbath is not really about reaping rewards from God, it is about doing what He said to do and to use the time to study and worship Him.

The logic of both the Sabbath and requirement of the fast for Ramadan don't have a manageable cut off points; that is religion that does that. They push to the furthest level, doesn't Allah demand holiness to the furthest degree? How then can a Sabbath be fulfilled with even the slightest work, how can a fast be accomplished with the slightest consumption? These are unobtainable and they must point to someone else who has the authority to meet the requirement and redeem us.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Ramadan has its origins in pre Islamic times as an Arab pagan festival that was inserted into Islam.

Perhaps but it still points to a requirement of holiness that is unobtainable by ourselves.

Albion · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Ramadan has its origins in pre Islamic times as an Arab pagan festival that was inserted into Islam.

...and then Mohammad adopted various practices of either Judaism or Christianity that appealed to him.

tampasteve · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
The logic of both the Sabbath and requirement of the fast for Ramadan don't have a manageable cut off points; that is religion that does that. They push to the furthest level, doesn't Allah demand holiness to the furthest degree? How then can a Sabbath be fulfilled with even the slightest work, how can a fast be accomplished with the slightest consumption? These are unobtainable and they must point to someone else who has the authority to fulfil and redeem us.

I am not arguing that it does not necessarily point to a redeemer, Jesus/Isa. What I am saying is that the length the thought is being taken is not to the length that any Jewish sage has gone as far as I am aware. Making that argument to a Jewish person would not work as they would say what I am saying - that the Law is not broken from doing things such as breathing or getting out of bed. Actually, there is plenty of thought/midrash to agree that doing life sustaining matters is required on the Sabbath. Your position is still reasonable though even without taking the "no work" on the Sabbath to that length, I think.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

tampasteve said:
I am not arguing that it does not necessarily point to a redeemer, Jesus/Isa. What I am saying is that the length the thought is being taken is not to the length that any Jewish sage has gone as far as I am aware. Making that argument to a Jewish person would not work as they would say what I am saying - that the Law is not broken from doing things such as breathing or getting out of bed. Actually, there is plenty of thought/midrash to agree that doing life sustaining matters is required on the Sabbath. Your position is still reasonable though even without taking the "no work" on the Sabbath to that length, I think.

Religion gives us manageable rules, and then there are experts that comment on those rules and come to conclusions within the scope of these rules. But if Allah desires us to rest on the sabbath because he rested then the measure is his rest not ours which of course is of the highest to an ineffable degree; to no Jew or Muslim would disagree. This is not the law of the sabbath it is the measure of it and where the logic points to. The law has always pointed to Christ and chiefly of these is the Sabbath where only Isa can give you true Sabbath rest.

This is the same for the fast. There is a goal and a reward for it but it is unobtainable, perhaps not by the letter of the law, but by the standard of holiness that Allah demands. Fast if you value it and worship Allah as you do but also seek the one who has authority and power to reach the goal.

Barney2.0 · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Perhaps but it still points to a requirement of holiness that is unobtainable by ourselves.

Muslims themselves are not sure why they fast in Ramadan, nor is there really a story behind it unlike Christmas which represents the birth of Jesus Christ into the world. Muslims themselves do not know why they fast in Ramadan you’d just get different varying reasons or excuses as I call them on why they fast in Ramadan. Even to Muslims the origins of Ramadan are mysterious and unknown.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Muslims themselves are not sure why they fast in Ramadan, nor is there really a story behind it unlike Christmas which represents the birth of Jesus Christ into the world. Muslims themselves do not know why they fast in Ramadan you’d just get different varying reasons or excuses as I call them on why they fast in Ramadan. Even to Muslims the origins of Ramadan are mysterious and unknown.

Many believe it has multiplying benefits, at the very least it is because Allah demands it. If a Muslim participates in the fast they may not understand it but on some level they believe in its reward. I'm saying following its logic it is impossible but Isa has the power and authority to give the reward and far greater if you seek him.

Barney2.0 · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Many believe it has multiplying benefits, at the very least it is because Allah demands it. If a Muslim participates in the fast they may not understand it but on some level they believe in its reward. I'm saying following its logic it is impossible but Isa has the power and authority to give the reward and far greater if you seek him.

Isa is the Islamic false Messiah not Jesus Christ the true Messiah.

Godistruth1 · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Ramadan has its origins in pre Islamic times as an Arab pagan festival that was inserted into Islam.

I assume moses was pagan as per your statement & bible combined!

When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I stayed in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
Deuteronomy 9:9,18

Barney2.0 · Jun 1, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
I assume moses was pagan as per your statement & bible combined!

When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I stayed in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
Deuteronomy 9:9,18

Moses did not fast like Muslims do, he literally never ate nor did he drink anything for forty days. This shows God could keep Moses alive within his presence neither is Moses telling his people to fast for forty days and nights. Moses fasted because he was in the presence of the lord, while Muslims are clueless on why they fast during Ramadan on that specific month neither is this found in Judaism or Christianity do we see any figures in the Old or New Testament fasting in the same date as Ramadan takes place, so we can conclude Ramadan was a pagan holiday before being inserted into Islam.

tampasteve · Jun 1, 2018

DamianWarS said:
Religion gives us manageable rules, and then there are experts that comment on those rules and come to conclusions within the scope of these rules. But if Allah desires us to rest on the sabbath because he rested then the measure is his rest not ours which of course is of the highest to an ineffable degree; to no Jew or Muslim would disagree.

I believe most would disagree. To Jews the Law and the religion are inseparable. It is more than a religion with "manageable rules", the rules came from God himself in the written and oral Torah and interpreted by the sages in light of the Torah, where needed.

This is not the law of the sabbath it is the measure of it and where the logic points to.

I am sorry, but your "logic" of the limit of "work" just does not work in the framework of the intent or execution of the Law. He did not rest because he was tired and had to stop everything the He did, that was not the purpose of the sabbath day of rest. Feel encouraged to bring your challenge to an observant Jewish person, however I believe they will not be convinced by it as you are taking the Law out of its requirements.

Godistruth1 · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Moses did not fast like Muslims do, he literally never ate nor did he drink anything for forty days. This shows God could keep Moses alive within his presence neither is Moses telling his people to fast for forty days and nights. Moses fasted because he was in the presence of the lord, while Muslims are clueless on why they fast during Ramadan on that specific month neither is this found in Judaism or Christianity do we see any figures in the Old or New Testament fasting in the same date as Ramadan takes place, so we can conclude Ramadan was a pagan holiday before being inserted into Islam.

We fast because Allah said so. What logic is needed. Why you apply logic in other religions and never in yours? How ironic! Is there no logic to your religion?

Barney2.0 · Jun 1, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
We fast because Allah said so. What logic is needed. Why you apply logic in other religions and never in yours? How ironic! Is there no logic to your religion?

I never said there is no logic in my religion, I just distinctly remember telling you that we can’t define the nature of God by human logic, I never said the faith and it’s message shouldn’t apply to logical standards. You fast because Allah says so, well Allah told the same to the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs, so this just proved my point that Ramadan was adopted by Muslims when it was previously a pagan date for fasting to idols.

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
Isa is the Islamic false Messiah not Jesus Christ the true Messiah.

Isa is a word and so is Jesus. Word's do not inherently pick sides it is how we use those words that determine their truth

DamianWarS · Jun 1, 2018

tampasteve said:
I believe most would disagree. To Jews the Law and the religion are inseparable. It is more than a religion with "manageable rules", the rules came from God himself in the written and oral Torah and interpreted by the sages in light of the Torah, where needed.

I am sorry, but your "logic" of the limit of "work" just does not work in the framework of the intent or execution of the Law. He did not rest because he was tired and had to stop everything the He did, that was not the purpose of the sabbath day of rest. Feel encouraged to bring your challenge to an observant Jewish person, however I believe they will not be convinced by it as you are taking the Law out of its requirements.

I don't know any Jews and it would be irresponsible for me to comment on the things that they value or don't value. Allah may have not been tired but he still rested and because he rested the law was made. The measure of the rest is still in relation to his rest, not ours. And the logic of the law still has no reasonable end but keeps on going until perfection is obtained, regardless if a observant Jewish agrees with me or not. I am a follower of Isa Al-Masih and I suspect there are a lot of things an observant Jew would disagree with.

Godistruth1 · Jun 1, 2018

Al Masihi said:
well Allah told the same to the pre-Islamic pagan Arabs

I can guarantee that's a lie again. What's your proof and please don't apply your normal method of interpretation that comes out of the blue!

Barney2.0 · Jun 2, 2018

Godistruth1 said:
I can guarantee that's a lie again. What's your proof and please don't apply your normal method of interpretation that comes out of the blue!

It’s known Ramadan was in practice before Islam started, ask your Imam that.

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