Is God just choosing one over the another?????????

Mountainmanbob said:

13 As it is written, v“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17

ESV study bible notes
Rom. 9:14–15 Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

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It can look this way Bob. But first... "I hated" in that sense is idiomatic. It doesn't mean God hated as we use the word, it means "Jacob I loved, Esau I loved less." There was simply a line of descendants that God, for whatever reason, wanted to use. Ephraim over Mannassah, Jacob over Esau, Ruth the gentile grandmother of David... all in line to Messiah. So it isn't that one is chosen over another... in terms of favoritism. It is God has one to do this job, one to that job, and so forth. Are all preachers? Do all prophesy? Do all heal? The obvious answer is no. Is God playing favorites? No, He is gifting according to His good will based on His intimate knowledge of who we are. He knows us better than we know us.

Esau has character traits God would hate.
He was profane, and a fornicator. He shows disdain for his birthright.
He did not honor his father and mother, in fact his choice of wives among the 'unbelievers' wears out his parents. He seeks to murder his brother Jacob. Esau seems to run around without restraints.

The Greek lexicon of Joseph Thayer has this to say on "μισέω", used in Romans 9:13, "
the signification to love less, to postpone in love or esteem, to slight, through oversight of the circumstance that 'the Orientals, in accordance with their greater excitability, are accustomed both to feel and to profess love and hate where we Occidentals, with our cooler temperament, feel and express nothing more than interest in, or disregard and indifference to a thing'; Fritzsche, Commentary on Romans, ii., p. 304; cf. Rückert, Magazin f. Exegese u. Theologie des N. T., p. 27ff"

It has the same meaning as in Luke 14:26, where Jesus says: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Jesus is not saying to "detest" or even "hate" your family, but to love Him more. This is also seen from Jesus' words with Peter at the end of John's Gospel, "So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep." (21:15-17)

sdowney717 said:

Esau has character traits God would hate.
He was profane, and a fornicator. He shows disdain for his birthright.
He did not honor his father and mother, in fact his choice of wives among the 'unbelievers' wears out his parents. He seeks to murder his brother Jacob. Esau seems to run around without restraints.

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No, you missed Paul's point. Paul explicitly said in verses 10 and 11 that God's choice of Jacob was not because of anything Jacob did right or anything Esau did wrong.

I Psalm 106:40, we read of what God says of His own people, the Children of Israel, who were the apple of His eye, His first-born, etc,

"Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against His people, insomuch that he abhorred His own inheritance"

Here we have the Hebrew verb "תַּעָב", with the meaning of, "to loathe, detest", "abominable". When compared to the Hebrew word used in Malachi 1:3, "And I hated Esau", which is "שָׂנֵא‎", the one in Psalm is much stronger.

Calvinists who often quote (or rather, misquote) from Romans 9:10-13, don't read the context, but for their theological bias, only take what they want to, to try to show that the Bible supports their understanding.

"And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Nothing more than the fact, that God says, Esau will be the one who will SERVE (not election to life!) Jacob, THIS, and ONLY THIS, is what "God’s purpose of election", refers to. And this is because God "preferred" (loved more) Jacob.

I don't see how we can use "loved less" as an explation. Look at Mal 1:


That's not loving less, it's hating. But there's a better way to understand these passages. First, God does not "just" do anything, as if capriciously. He is perfect morally, there is no darkness in Him. "All the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether". And He has promised to reward those who do good and seek Him. So if He judges someone, we can be sure that it was fully warranted, whether the reason why is clear to us or not. If God hated Esau, there was a good reason. And if as He called the Israelites to freedom, He also raised up pharaoh to break him, there was a good reason. God's economy is perfect.

So when Paul says "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," he is not contrasting free will v. determinism, but rather grace v. works. Someone who is not seeking to be God's, but who exerts himself for salvation by his own devices, is not going to get it. Salvation can only come through God's mercy and grace, and you have to go to Him for it. But it will come to all those who genuinely seek to belong to God, regardless of their apparent works. In the passage, the nation of Esau sought to rebuild itself, but because it wouldn't return to God, no matter how strong their intentions or how much they worked God set Himself in opposition to them.

Romans 9 is predominately about corporate election. "The older shall serve the younger" - but the reference Paul is quoting says:


The reference is to the nations the two sons will spawn, not to the sons themselves. Esau, the man, did not serve Jacob. It was Jacob who prostrated himself to Esau, seven times, repeatedly called him "my Lord", and likened him to God when they finally reconciled. And Esau himself had great wealth and power, so he doesn't seem to have been weaker than Jacob in any way. Quite the opposite, actually, he appears the stronger.

So when God says He has hated Esau, it is a retrospective observation regarding the nation of Esau, which had gone astray, not prospective regarding the man as he was born. Paul here is not endorsing a deterministic salvation of individuals, but is stressing His faithful and righteous granting of rewards and punishments.

paul1149 said:

I don't see how we can use "loved less" as an explation. Look at Mal 1:

"I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’” Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”​

That's not loving less, it's hating. But there's a better way to understand these passages. First, God does not "just" do anything, as if capriciously. He is perfect morally, there is no darkness in Him. "All the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether". And He has promised to reward those who do good and seek Him. So if He judges someone, we can be sure that it was fully warranted, whether the reason why is clear to us or not. If God hated Esau, there was a good reason. And if as He called the Israelites to freedom, He also raised up pharaoh to break him, there was a good reason. God's economy is perfect.

So when Paul says "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy," he is not contrasting free will v. determinism, but rather grace v. works. Someone who is not seeking to be God's, but who exerts himself for salvation by his own devices, is not going to get it. Salvation can only come through God's mercy and grace, and you have to go to Him for it. But it will come to all those who genuinely seek to belong to God, regardless of their apparent works. In the passage, the nation of Esau sought to rebuild itself, but because it wouldn't return to God, no matter how strong their intentions or how much they worked God set Himself in opposition to them.

Romans 9 is predominately about corporate election. "The older shall serve the younger" - but the reference Paul is quoting says:

And the Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you shall be divided;
the one shall be stronger than the other,
the older shall serve the younger.” -Gen 25.23​

The reference is to the nations the two sons will spawn, not to the sons themselves. Esau, the man, did not serve Jacob. It was Jacob who prostrated himself to Esau, seven times, and repeatedly called him "my Lord" when they finally reconciled. And Esau himself had great wealth and power, so he seems to have done alright for himself.

So when God says He has hated Esau, it is a retrospective observation regarding the nation of Esau, which had gone astray, not prospective regarding the man as he was born.

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see my comments at #7

paul1149 said:

And the Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you shall be divided;
the one shall be stronger than the other,
the older shall serve the younger.” -Gen 25.23​

The reference is to the nations the two sons will spawn, not to the sons themselves. Esau, the man, did not serve Jacob. It was Jacob who prostrated himself to Esau, seven times, and repeatedly called him "my Lord" when they finally reconciled. And Esau himself had great wealth and power, so he seems to have done alright for himself.

So when God says He has hated Esau, it is a retrospective observation regarding the nation of Esau, which had gone astray, not prospective regarding the man as he was born.

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Exactly! So many have misunderstood the basic theme of this passage and have went off to build their own doctrine. The whole thing is talking about the nations which would be born out of these two.

Mountainmanbob said:

Do you know where the term "love less" comes from? I hear it used often but, the ESV Study Bible does not mention that in the study notes or the verse.
M-Bob

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It is just a Hebraic idiom not even in use today so much. I believe Jacob says the same about Leah... but he had a number of children with her, she lived under his roof... he clearly doesn't "hate" her.

RDKirk said:

No, you missed Paul's point. Paul explicitly said in verses 10 and 11 that God's choice of Jacob was not because of anything Jacob did right or anything Esau did wrong.

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I agree completely.
However Esau is mentioned unfavorably in scripture.

God hated Esau so much, all of Esau's descendant are zero, there are no survivors left to Esau. Stubble and fire, means Esau and his descendants, the stubble is burned, they were fitted only for the fire, whose end thereof is to be burned, or as Romans says, prepared-fitted for destruction. Esau and Esau's descendants were vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

Obadiah 1:18
The house of Jacob shall be a fire, And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau shall be stubble; They shall kindle them and devour them, And no survivor shall remain of the house of Esau,” For the Lord has spoken.

Romans 9
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I also do not agree with the 'love less' theory...about Esau. Some people do not want to admit, God has enemies and hates them. Unless you were foreknown in love to God, you and God are at war, enmity with each other, as you follow the devil and you are not of the Father.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And because of His Great Love for you, He made you alive who were dead.
Read Ephesians 2, none of that's according to anything good you have done, it is all about God's mercy and goodness to have such a great love only for some and not for others. God does this to prevent any ability of the flesh to boast back to God. The creature, (creation ) was subject to futility unwillingly.

Mountainmanbob said:

13 As it is written, v“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17

ESV study bible notes
Rom. 9:14–15 Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

Click to expand...

The letter killeth, but the spirit maketh alive. I believe this idea to refer to the flesh verses the spirit. God loves the spirit, but not the flesh, which is at enmity with God. This doesnt mean the flesh is bad, it is just the way things are....Therefore, in the flesh, no man can please God. The father seeketh those willing to worship in spirit and in truth.

Although I believed the letters myself for decades, it is almost laughable now that I thought God chose to hate and love actual babies while in the womb......

Mountainmanbob said:

13 As it is written, v“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? wIs there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, x“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,2 but on God, who has mercy. 17

ESV study bible notes
Rom. 9:14–15 Since God chose Jacob instead of Esau before they were born, without regard to how good or bad either of them would be, the question naturally arises: Is God just in choosing one over the other? God is just because no one deserves to be saved (cf. 3:23), and the salvation of anyone at all is due to God’s mercy alone, as the citation of Ex. 33:19 affirms.

Click to expand...

Hi Bob,
We are very affected by the bible we read, just like YOU told ME. I like to read the actual verses and not the explanations.

Jesus said this:

Luke 14:25-26
25Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, 26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Without reading any commentaries, tell me what you think Jesus meant.

Do you think Jesus wants us to hate our parents and children and siblings?

No?

Then there must be another explanation...
So then you find out what "hate" means in Luke...you do NOT read the commentary on Romans 9:13-14 in a bible that is leaning toward calvinism.