Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Doug Melven · May 30, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Likewise, Hebrews 13:5 is also for the saint and not the sinner. For almost immediately before the promise is given, the scripture tells us that without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

None of us said otherwise, this promise is only for those in Christ, not unbelievers.

justbyfaith said:
The question that is not being asked is, who is a recipient of eternal life? And I believe you have the wrong answer to that question.

The question is can a true recipient of eternal perish? The answer is no.

Bible2+ · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1876:

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin.

There is (1 John 3:9).

Also, Jesus Christ is a sinless human being (Hebrews 4:15).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1877:

Second, I am interested in what the Bible says. And it makes no distinction between mental assent vs heart faith.

Christian faith must not be based solely on heart feelings, which can be very deceptive (Jeremiah 17:9, Proverbs 28:26, Proverbs 14:12), but must also be a rational/intellectual enterprise. For saving faith requires mental assent (Philippians 3:15-16, Romans 12:2; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25, Romans 8:6) to Biblical doctrine (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4; 1 Timothy 4:16; 2 John 1:9-10; 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:9), and continuing to remember that doctrine (1 Corinthians 15:2; 2 Peter 3:1-2; 2 Corinthians 11:3).

For example, in order for people to be saved from hell, they must believe (and continue to believe to the end: Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23; 1 Corinthians 15:2) the Biblical doctrine that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36, 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, and physically resurrected from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1878:

James 2:24 is about justification from the perspective of others.

No, it isn't.

For the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1878:

This claim is in direct opposition to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that they shall never perish.

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1878:

In fact, the whole point was abiding in Him for bearing fruit, not getting or staying saved.

There is no salvation apart from Him (John 14:6).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1882:

There is no Scripture that says anyone who has been placed in Christ can be removed from that position.

There is (John 15:1-2a).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1882:

Eph 1:13,14 is just as clear as John 10:28 about eternal security. Having believed, the believer is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the inheritance of the sealed one for the day of redemption.

There is no "guarantee".

FreeGrace2 said in post #1882:

Who is the author and finisher of our salvation? Jesus Christ Himself.

Did you mean of our faith?

If so, Hebrews 12:2a means that it is only because of Jesus Christ that Christians came to believe, and have the ability to continue to believe, to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus does not take away Christians' free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1882:

No believer has such power as to remove themselves from God's hand.

Believers do, because of the power of free will.

That's why Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel in order to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him in order to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1898:

. . . you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 by your continuing to FORCE conditions in the verse that AREN'T THERE.

A condition doesn't have to be in a verse for there to be a condition for that verse in some other verse (Isaiah 28:9-10). For Jesus put a condition on the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1913:

When the flesh is gone, so is the sin.

Flesh per se is not sinful (Luke 24:39). Sin comes from our hearts (Mark 7:21-23).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1913:

You need to get over the nonsense that anyone in heaven is even capable of sin.

They have no free will? Lucifer in heaven was not capable of sin? (Isaiah 14:12)

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1914:

Then why do you say contrary to what Jesus said in John 10:28, and what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23?

Regarding the seed in 1 Peter 1:23, the sower parable (Luke 8:4-15) shows that the last three types of people all received the incorruptible seed of God's Word and came into Christian faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians in order for them to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

Matthew 13:23 and Mark 4:8 mean that the thirty, sixty, and hundred-fold fruit applies only to that fruit brought forth by the Christians on good ground.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1916:

How come we don't find the words "must be continual faith abiding unto the end" here?

Christians must endure to the end to be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1916:

John 11:25-27 teaches eternal security just as 10:28 does.

With conditions.

For Daniel 12:2 will occur at the Church's physical resurrection at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and before the future Millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the Church will lose their salvation at Jesus' Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Bible2+ · May 31, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

Just because someone says "Lord, Lord" does not mean they are born-again.

It can mean that, with regard to initial salvation (Romans 10:13).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

And His will is that we should believe on the Son. John 6:40

And also do good works (Romans 2:6-8).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

Can a child do something so evil that his parents will disown him?

Yes, even to the point of stoning him to death, if there is no repentance (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

Because He said "Not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away till all was fulfilled".
Jesus did not say that it was only the things concerning Him.

That's what He meant (Luke 24:44-48).

For Matthew 5:17-18 meant that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for He did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 cannot mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for He could not possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).

As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with His own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow His disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

In your doctrine you have zero confidence that God will finish what He started in others.

He will (Philippians 1:6), so long as they cooperate along with Him (2 Corinthians 5:9).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

[Re: 2 Tim. 2:12b]
So what makes you think Jesus will deny us eternal life from this verse?

It's the same as Matthew 7:23.

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

He will never leave us or forsake us.

With conditions (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

He promises He won't leave us. Like if we were to do something wrong, He would have to leave us.

No, only if we refuse to repent (Hebrews 10:26-29).

For Matthew 18:12-14 gives Christians the assurance that Jesus Christ their good shepherd (John 10:14) will seek them out if they wander away, such as into false teachings or sins (James 5:19-20). But it is still possible for Christians to ultimately lose their salvation, if, after they go astray and Jesus comes after them, they wrongly employ their free will to reject His advances, such as by committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

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Doug Melven said in post #1910:

[Heb.] 10:10 shows all are sanctified. That is Christ died for all, and all are set apart.

No.

For Hebrews 10:10, like Romans 6:10, means that Jesus Christ died once for all time (1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:26-28, Hebrews 10:10,12), not for all people.

For Jesus Christ's sheep whom He died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are elect people (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in Him (John 10:27), and who will believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to nonelect people, who cannot ever believe in Him (John 8:42-47), because they are not His sheep (John 10:26).

Hebrews 10:10,14 means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense does not denote permanence. For example, if someone says in the perfect tense: "I have washed my child", this does not mean that the child has been made permanently clean. For after having been washed, the child can then wrongly employ his free will to go out and play in the mud. Similarly, spiritually-washed Christians (1 Corinthians 6:11) can wrongly employ their free will to go back to wallowing in the mire of sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22; 2 Corinthians 12:20-21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Luke 12:45-46). Also, the "forever" in Hebrews 10:14 does not denote a permanent perfection, but means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus is perpetually applied in the ongoing, and eternal, process by which Christians are "being sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14, see the original Greek tense), so long as they are repenting from and confessing to God every sin that they commit (1 John 1:9,7, Hebrews 10:26-29).

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Doug Melven said in post #1911:

Not talking about God's children for we are not appointed to wrath.

With conditions (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

justbyfaith said:
To you, salvation is only from the penalty of sin, not sin itself, contrary to what it says in Matthew 1:21.

It seems you just keep getting it wrong on what I believe. So I'll explain what I believe.

Salvation comes in 3 tenses for those who believe.

1. Past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. justification
2. Present tense: saved from the power of sin. sanctification
3. Future tense: saved from the presence of sin. glorification.

No, I'm saying that if they don't meet certain criteria, they are not recipients of eternal life in the first place.

This isn't the issue in John 10:28. Of course there is a condition for receiving eternal life, and that is believing in Jesus Christ for salvation.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

So we see the condition for possessing eternal life is to believe in Christ.

Now, on to John 10:28. Jesus gives eternal life to believers, obviously. And the CONDITION for never perishing is to possess eternal life.

I believe Jesus is right, too; and that the apostle John would not contradict him when he spoke on the same subject in such verses as 1 John 2:17 as compared to 1 John 3:6.

If you truly do believe that Jesus is right, then you need to jettison your belief that recipients of eternal life have to meet certain conditions in order to not perish.

@FreeGrace2 wrote:
"We do not sin in our spirit. He that is born of God does not sin. I john 3:9"

This is Gnosticism: for in Gnosticism is the concept that matter is evil and spirit is good, so what we do with our spirit cannot be sin, but that what we do with our flesh is sin.

You are so confused. What do you think 1 John 3:9 is teaching then? Sinless perfection? Of course not, since 1 Jn 1:8 makes that clear.

Therefore in Gnosticism, it doesn't matter what we do in the flesh, because our spirit isn't involved.

And...I NEVER said "it doesn't matter what we do in the flesh", so please stop putting words in my mouth. I have been explaining God's PAINFUL discipline all along, so there is NO EXCUSE for equating my claims with stupid gnosticism. not.even.close.

Tell me what has been regenerated if not a human spirit. What, specifically?

Tell us how this is any different from what both of you have purported here.

Just explained it to you.

Because you have said basically the same thing: that when we sin with the flesh, the spirit is not involved.

Where does the Holy Spirit dwell in us? The regenerated human spirit. But go ahead and provide where you think He resides.

In fact, the way you quoted that above, we don't even really sin when we commit sins of the flesh.

Pure nonsense.

However, I think that you have misinterpreted John 10:28. It is obvious from the context that this promise in John 10:28 is a promise to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows.

Everyone KNOWS who the promise is to. Now, explain what Jesus meant in v.28, if not eternal security.

Therefore I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible, but that your interpretation of John 10:28 is faulty.

When are you going to exegete the verse and tell us what it does say?

It does not assure the sinner that he has eternal life, and shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck him out of Jesus' hand.

You need to explain how there is no assurance when Jesus said "and they shall never perish" then. Because those words are as clear as can be about assurance of never perishing.

For he is not in Jesus' hand. This scripture gives assurance only to the saint, the one who has turned away from a sinful lifestyle and is pursuing a life of holiness.

Please read the verse again. There is NOTHING there about "only" those sheep who are pursuing a life of holiness.

It seems you don't read very well.

This is exactly what Jesus said:
"I give them (His sheep, believers) eternal life". He is the CAUSE for having eternal life.

"and they (His sheep, believers) shall never perish". Never perishing is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

No one has yet shown that He meant anything other than what He clearly stated.

Between the CAUSE of having eternal life and the EFFECT of having eternal life, there are NO CONDITIONS at all.

So stop claiming that there are conditions for recipients (His sheep, believers) of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

This post of yours convinces me that your comprehension of the English language is limited, at least.

It seems you don't even understand what He said.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

justbyfaith said:
The question that is not being asked is, who is a recipient of eternal life?

I've addressed this multiple times. Believers are the recipients of eternal life.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

And I believe you have the wrong answer to that question.

Then explain who gets eternal life from these 6 verses above, please.

112358 · May 31, 2018

Respectfully, if you can read these verses you have quoted and not see that they explicitly speak to the potential loss of eternal life, your understanding of scripture is seriously flawed. Particularly the book of Hebrews. The entire letter is addressed to CHRISTIAN JEWS. The author is practically begging them not to abandon the faith and return to the now empty law of Judaism.

We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is the law through which we are saved by grace. Faith is not synonymous with belief. Grace also "reigns in righteousness". All of God's commandments are righteousness. So to the extent that we abide in all of His commandments we can say that we are righteous. No righteousness (obedience), no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation.

God is not mocked friends. Search your hearts and accept what His good and perfect will has revealed through His Word. Peace!

Doug Melven said:
Not one single verse shows loss of eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
We have eternal life because we are born-again by faith. It is not our faith that keeps us born-again, it is God's power.
We have faith in Him as His children, and that faith gets us rewards. Hebrews 11:6
If that faith is gone, so are the rewards. Still born-again though. Still sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption.
Hebrews 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
When you read the first 3 verses of this chapter you can see that this is not talking about a believer losing his salvation/ born-again state.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: 14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: 15 while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Could not enter the promised land because of unbelief. We need to continue to believe, not to be born-again as that is a done deal, but to have a victorious Christian life.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on [the word of] two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is not talking about a child of God. But you say it says he was sanctified by the blood.
10:10 shows all are sanctified. That is Christ died for all, and all are set apart. Not everybody gets saved as Universalists teach.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Our souls are not going to be with Jesus in the afterlife, our spirits.
so the perdition here is not talking about the Lake of fire.
The word for perdition is G684. It means ruin or loss. It can be physical, spiritual or eternal.
So the context of the verse must determine which it is. Our souls are not eternal.

Revelation 2:4 But I have [this] against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.

This is a message to a church, how can it be about individual loss of salvation?

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Cut off from what? 11:29 says God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, are irrevocable.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what?
Do you believe in salvation by grace? Or works?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which [the Lord] promised to them that love him.

We are saved by grace through faith. We do good works for crowns, not to get or stay saved.

James 5:19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

You quoting this is funny as it contradicts an earlier quote of yours, Hebrews 6:4-6, where it says it impossible once someone has fallen away to renew them again to repentance.

1 Thessalonians 3:8 8 for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

Now our salvation is dependent on others standing fast?
Paul did not believe his salvation was dependent on others standing fast, because Demas forsook him.
When others stand fast we have joy, this has nothing to do with our salvation.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1876:

There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin.

Bible2+ said:
There is (1 John 3:9).

No, you just fail to understand what John was saying.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God."

The red words refer to our new nature, the regenerated human spirit, where the Holy Spirit dwells.

The blue words refer to what this new nature cannot do, which is sin.

Also, Jesus Christ is a sinless human being (Hebrews 4:15).

Correct. Sinless in both His humanity and His Deity.

But believers still sin. Just read Paul's struggle with sin in Romans 7 and the choice every believer makes in Romans 6.

And consider the "other side of the coin" from Gal 5:16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

iow, those believers who aren't walking by the Spirit ARE gratifying the desires of the flesh, which is another way of describing sin.

For the issue in James 2:14-24 is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

The failure to comprehend so much Scripture is just stunning.

I have already given plenty of verses that speak of God's and human's perspectives, which is what John 2:24 is about: justification in the eyes of others.

So, how are believers justified in the eyes of others? Practicing what they preach. Not being a hypocrite. The example James gave in 2:15,16 shows a hypocrite who didn't practice what he preached.

Here are the verses about the 2 perspectives:
Human and Divine perspective

Romans 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
This is about the perspective of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
This is about the perspective of both God and humans.

2 Cor 5:12 - We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart.
This is about the perspective of others.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
This is about perspective of the Lord and of man.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
This is about perspective of outsiders.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.
This is directly related to James 2:15-18.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
This is about perspective of outsiders. To “win the respect of outsiders” is to be justified in the eyes of outsiders.

Consider James 2:15,16
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

Now see the stunning parallel in 1 John 3:16,17
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?

They were teaching about the exact same thing; deeds to demonstrate one's faith.

There is no "guarantee".

Then what do you make of Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Believers do, because of the power of free will.

Error. There is no power in free will. Only choices to make. No power at all.

Where are you getting your misinformation?

A condition doesn't have to be in a verse for there to be a condition for that verse in some other verse (Isaiah 28:9-10).

This is a joke. Of course a condition must be in a verse where one is required. I'm stunned that anyone would even make such a reckless statement.

If there are conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish, then Jesus was RECKLESS by leaving them out in John 10:28.

But Jesus isn't reckless. He is the TRUTH. And recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH, in spite of all your efforts to twist His words into something else.

For Jesus put a condition on the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) with the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

Not for never perishing, He didn't.

Regarding the seed in 1 Peter 1:23, the sower parable (Luke 8:4-15) shows that the last three types of people all received the incorruptible seed of God's Word and came into Christian faith.

Conflation isn't an acceptable technique. There is no connection between the parable of the seeds and 1 Pet 1:23.

The parable is about fruit bearing, or not. 1 Pet 1:23 is about the FACT that being born again of imperishable seed MEANS those born again (given etenral life) shall never perish.

Obviously. But unfortunately, not to everyone.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

112358 said:
Respectfully, if you can read these verses you have quoted and not see that they explicitly speak to the potential loss of eternal life, your understanding of scripture is seriously flawed.

Wow. Talk about a "flawed understanding of Scripture"!!

John 10:28 is as explicit as Jesus could be about NEVER PERISHING. How is that not explicit? And how can "NEVER PERISH" even suggest "potential loss of eternal life"?

Your statements are revealing a very serious defect in understanding the English language.

112358 · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Wow. Talk about a "flawed understanding of Scripture"!!

John 10:28 is as explicit as Jesus could be about NEVER PERISHING. How is that not explicit? And how can "NEVER PERISH" even suggest "potential loss of eternal life"?

Your statements are revealing a very serious defect in understanding the English language.

Acknowledging John 10:28. What is the obsession with this one verse? It is not the only one found in the New Testament, nor is it all Jesus had to say regarding eternal life.

LoveofTruth · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin.

Wrong again ,

we read clearly in scripture

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

I wonder if you will admit your error here or how you will try to avoid doing so.

also you can read these verses

"7 For he that is dead is freed from sin....18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.(Romans 6:7,18 KJV)

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

112358 said:
Acknowledging John 10:28. What is the obsession with this one verse?

I've answered this many times, and am happy to do so again.

John 10:28 is the SINGLE MOST CLEARLY STATED VERSE ON ETERNAL SECURITY in the Bible.

So, let me ask you: why are you in such denial of what it clearly says?

It is not the only one found in the New Testament, nor is it all Jesus had to say regarding eternal life.

It's the BEST verse in the Bible about eternal security.

Anyone who thinks that once eternal life is received, that there are conditions to meet in order to not perish are deluded. Either by self (emotional reaction), Satan (demonic influence), or others (false teachers).

Regardless of why one is deluded, the fact remains that they are, if they think that recipients of eternal life have conditions to meet in order to not perish.

If conditions are required of recipients of eternal life (saved people) in order to not perish, then John 10:28 is THE MOST DECEPTIVE AND MISLEADING VERSE IN THE BIBLE.

And I will never believe that. Because Jesus was so clear.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin.

LoveofTruth said:
Wrong again ,

we read clearly in scripture

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

I wonder if you will admit your error here or how you will try to avoid doing so.

Well, let's just consider what this verse actually says.

First, Peter mentions that Christ "suffered for us in the flesh". Do you understand what he was talking about? He was referring to the suffering of Christ on our behalf on the cross. And this is our motivation to be mentally prepared (arm yourselves w/ the same mind).

Now, we know that Jesus never "ceased from sin". That would be a blasphemous thought. He was always sinless.

The verb "has suffered" is a 'perfect tense', which is used for "indicating not the past action as such but the present 'state of affairs' resulting from the past action." Wallace, Greek Grammar; Beyond the Basics. Peter is not describing sinless perfection, but a changed attitude toward sin as a result of suffering. iow, by suffering for Christ, the believer's attitude toward sin has changed. He no longer views sin casually, but as something to avoid.

Both Rom 8:17b and 2 Tim 2:12a speak of suffering for Christ, and the result, eternal reward. Those who will earn eternal reward certainly have a different attitude toward sin than those believers who won't earn eternal reward.

However, and this is very important; those who simply read this as those who suffer stop sinning are doomed to misunderstand Scripture.

How have you suffered for Christ? And from that time forward, did you never sin again?

Do you see how silly such an understand becomes?

also you can read these verses

"7 For he that is dead is freed from sin....18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.(Romans 6:7,18 KJV)

Excellent verse! Goes together with 1 Pet 4:1 beautifully. Here, Paul is referring to the judgment of sin. When a person believes in Christ, they are justified and are no longer under judgment. John 3:36. iow, the believer is free from the judgment of sin.

Paul sure didn't mean "no longer sin". If that were true, he himself failed to do that.

Just read Romans 7 and his struggle with sin.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Once again, this verse is in perfect harmony with all I've said. The word "abiding" has to do with being in fellowship with Christ. And when one IS in fellowship, they do NOT SIN.

God cannot have fellowship with sin. So the believer must be in fellowship in order to not sin. But when the believer is out of fellowship, through grieving/quenching the Spirit, they ARE sinning.

Sadly, the OSNAS crowd has no orientation about fellowship, which makes it impossible for such people to understand any of this.

112358 · May 31, 2018

Indeed He was quite clear. Those that hear Him, are known by Him, and follow Him are those that he gives eternal life. There are the conditions (in the context of this passage). And no one has the power to snatch them from His hand, also quite clear. You can choose to ignore the rest of Holy writ that speaks to those who stop hearing Him, are no longer known by Him, and stop following Him, but your blindness does not mean they are not there.

There is nothing deceptive or misleading about this verse or any others. You just have to be willing to accept ALL OF THEM.

FreeGrace2 said:
I've answered this many times, and am happy to do so again.

John 10:28 is the SINGLE MOST CLEARLY STATED VERSE ON ETERNAL SECURITY in the Bible.

So, let me ask you: why are you in such denial of what it clearly says?

It's the BEST verse in the Bible about eternal security.

Anyone who thinks that once eternal life is received, that there are conditions to meet in order to not perish are deluded. Either by self (emotional reaction), Satan (demonic influence), or others (false teachers).

Regardless of why one is deluded, the fact remains that they are, if they think that recipients of eternal life have conditions to meet in order to not perish.

If conditions are required of recipients of eternal life (saved people) in order to not perish, then John 10:28 is THE MOST DECEPTIVE AND MISLEADING VERSE IN THE BIBLE.

And I will never believe that. Because Jesus was so clear.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

112358 said:
Indeed He was quite clear. Those that hear Him, are known by Him, and follow Him are those that he gives eternal life.

There are no conditions stated in v.27 about how to receive eternal life. Jesus covered that previously in John's gospel.

John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Where do you see "following" as a condition for possessing eternal life?

There are the conditions (in the context of this passage).

The discussion is on what v.28 says. Jesus gave us the CAUSE of having eternal life, and EFFECT of having eternal life.

If you don't agree, then prove that He didn't give us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

If there EVER was a verse where conditions for not perishing would be required, it would be this verse.

So, the FACT that Jesus gave no conditions, we know that there are NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

Do you even understand the issue here? The issue is strictly about the EFFECT of being given eternal life. The EFFECT is to never perish.

So, from what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life, do you believe that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, or do you believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish?

And no one has the power to snatch them from His hand, also quite clear.

To be even more clear, the "no one" can be understood as "no person". Does that include the believer himself? You bet it does.

You can choose to ignore the rest of Holy writ that speaks to those who stop hearing Him, are no longer known by Him, and stop following Him, but your blindness does not mean they are not there.

Here's the point. None of this is found in John 10:28, where conditions for not perishing MUST BE INCLUDED if there were any.

Yes, believers do stop hearing, believing, following. But there are NO VERSES that say that anyone is "no longer known by Him". That is false. Read Matt 7:23 again. Jesus said He NEVER knew them.

NEVER is a far cry from "no longer knowing".

There is nothing deceptive or misleading about this verse or any others.

Of course not.

You just have to be willing to accept ALL OF THEM.

I do. It's your kind that do not.

So, please my question: can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?

The answer to this question will demonstrate whether you really do accept all the verses or not.

Doug Melven · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1882:

Eph 1:13,14 is just as clear as John 10:28 about eternal security. Having believed, the believer is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit which GUARANTEES the inheritance of the sealed one for the day of redemption.

Bible2+ said:
There is no "guarantee".

How is that not a guarantee?

Bible2+ said:
Did you mean of our faith?

If so, Hebrews 12:2a means that it is only because of Jesus Christ that Christians came to believe, and have the ability to continue to believe, to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus does not take away Christians' free will. So it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

According to what you teach here, Jesus is the Author and we are the finishers.
But that is not what Scripture says. Jesus is the Author AND Finisher of our faith.

Bible2+ said:
Regarding the seed in 1 Peter 1:23, the sower parable (Luke 8:4-15) shows that the last three types of people all received the incorruptible seed of God's Word and came into Christian faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required for Christians in order for them to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).
Matthew 13:23 and Mark 4:8 mean that the thirty, sixty, and hundred-fold fruit applies only to that fruit brought forth by the Christians on good ground.

In the first 2 types of soil there is no root.
Do you understand how seeds work?
In order to grow, a seed must take root.
In order for a child to be conceived the woman must do more than receive seed, she must be impregnated.
In 1 Peter 1:23 the word for seed is spora.
So if the seed does not take/impregnate nothing happens.

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

Just because someone says "Lord, Lord" does not mean they are born-again.

Bible2+ said:
It can mean that, with regard to initial salvation (Romans 10:13).

Matthew 7:23 Jesus tells them the workers of iniquity to depart for He NEVER knew them.
If Jesus said He never knew them how can they have been born-again at one point?
Do you think Jesus has a bad memory?

Bible2+ said:
And also do good works (Romans 2:6-8).

We are created to do good works, good works will not save us. Lack of good works will not send us to hell.

Bible2+ said:
Yes, even to the point of stoning him to death, if there is no repentance (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

They may have been stoned to death, but they were not disowned, that rebellious child was still there child.

Bible2+ said:
He will (Philippians 1:6), so long as they cooperate along with Him (2 Corinthians 5:9).

Paul was confident that God would finish what He started in somebody else.
How could Paul be confident that God would finish what He started in others?

Doug Melven said in post #1906:

[Re: 2 Tim. 2:12b]
So what makes you think Jesus will deny us eternal life from this verse?

Bible2+ said:
It's the same as Matthew 7:23.

But the people in Matthew 7:23 were never saved to begin with.

Bible2+ said:
For Hebrews 10:10, like Romans 6:10, means that Jesus Christ died once for all time (1 Peter 3:18, Hebrews 7:27, Hebrews 9:26-28, Hebrews 10:10,12), not for all people.

I thought only Calvinists believed in Limited Atonement?
1 John 2:2 says Jesus died for the whole world, not just the elect.

Bible2+ said:
Hebrews 10:10,14 means that the once-for-all-time offering of Jesus Christ's body on the Cross has sanctified and perfected Christians. But the perfect tense does not denote permanence.

Forever denotes permanence. And in verse 14 it says we are perfected forever.

112358 said:
Indeed He was quite clear. Those that hear Him, are known by Him, and follow Him are those that he gives eternal life. There are the conditions (in the context of this passage). And no one has the power to snatch them from His hand, also quite clear. You can choose to ignore the rest of Holy writ that speaks to those who stop hearing Him, are no longer known by Him, and stop following Him, but your blindness does not mean they are not there.

There is nothing deceptive or misleading about this verse or any others. You just have to be willing to accept ALL OF THEM.

And those He gives eternal life to will never perish.
You guys have this strange idea that those He gives eternal life to may perish.

112358 · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
So, please my question: can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?

Without question, absolutely, based on dozens of passages and examples already outlined by me and others from almost every book of the New Testament...YES. YES. YES!

If the apostle Paul expressed concern that he himself not become disqualified, who am I to say that I should not also entertain that same concern? Who are you to say that?

God Almighty has never, not once in all of human history, tolerated willful disobedience to His Holy commands in any dispensation since creation. Eve apparently thought that He might when she was deceived, but she was wonderfully mistaken.

If I, having accepted and obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, having received the benefit of His saving grace, great promises, and seal of redemption, make the conscious choice to rebel, to sin, to abandon His family, to crucify the Savior once more by my willfulness and blatant disregard of His immutable laws, I will stand before Him in eternal judgment condemned in eternity. And so will you if you make the same choices.

This is not that hard to understand.

LoveofTruth · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said: ↑
There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin.

Well, let's just consider what this verse actually says.

First, Peter mentions that Christ "suffered for us in the flesh". Do you understand what he was talking about? He was referring to the suffering of Christ on our behalf on the cross. And this is our motivation to be mentally prepared (arm yourselves w/ the same mind).

Now, we know that Jesus never "ceased from sin". That would be a blasphemous thought. He was always sinless.

The verb "has suffered" is a 'perfect tense', which is used for "indicating not the past action as such but the present 'state of affairs' resulting from the past action." Wallace, Greek Grammar; Beyond the Basics. Peter is not describing sinless perfection, but a changed attitude toward sin as a result of suffering. iow, by suffering for Christ, the believer's attitude toward sin has changed. He no longer views sin casually, but as something to avoid.

What???

Unbelievable, you twist and squirm and try hard to avoid the clear scriptural correction to your doctrine.

You said very clearly

"There is nothing in Scripture that indicates that human beings can cease from sin."

scripture corrects you clearly

"1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;"

You knew that this was a direct rebuke to you and it couldn't be clearer, but rather than repent and admit your error you went right away and tried to muddy the clarity of it by manipulating Greek and word tenses to try hard to avoid the clear rebuke. You are in great error here. You do similar with John 10:28 and other verses. And yes scripture does speak of believers being perfect. In fact God is working in every believer to make them perfect (Hebrews 13:20,21). I could show many verses about perfection do you want to hear them.

If we have been crucified WITH Christ we are dead with him to the old man and have suffered in the flesh and can now live in the newness of life and abide in Him and he in us. Then having been crucified with Christ we have suffered with him and cease from sin. It is very clear in scripture. This suffering in the flesh is our daily cross as we able in Christ and deny the flesh and yield to the Spirit.

So the OSAS person who continues in sin and acts like they cannot cease from sin, is in grave danger and warned in scripture of such a condition.

Doug Melven · May 31, 2018

112358 said:
Without question, absolutely, based on dozens of passages and examples already outlined by me and others from almost every book of the New Testament...YES. YES. YES!

Apparently you don't understand what was meant by the word never.
Strong's No.:
G3364
Greek:
οὐ μή
Transliteration:
ou mē
Pronunciation:
oo may
Definition:
That is G3756 and G3361; a double negative strengthening the denial;
not at all : - any more at all by any (no) means neither never no (at all) in no case (wise) nor ever not (at all in any wise).

In order for a recipient of eternal to perish John 10:28 cannot be true.
Because Jesus said they will never perish.

FreeGrace2 · May 31, 2018

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So, please my question: can a recipient of eternal life ever perish?

112358 said:
Without question, absolutely, based on dozens of passages and examples already outlined by me and others from almost every book of the New Testament...YES. YES. YES!

Well, at least you have the courage to actually admit that you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 then. Because He said those He gives eternal life to SHALL NEVER PERISH.

I really can't imagine how it would feel to knowingly disagree with ANYTHING that Jesus said.

If the apostle Paul expressed concern that he himself not become disqualified, who am I to say that I should not also entertain that same concern? Who are you to say that?

Don't you understand what he was concerned about? Being disqualified for the PRIZE. That isn't salvation.

God Almighty has never, not once in all of human history, tolerated willful disobedience to His Holy commands in any dispensation since creation.

I agree, and STILL, all recipients of eternal life shall never perish. What you miss is the doctrine of divine discipline, which is painful, according to Heb 12:11.

And that's what Peter taught in 2 Pet 2:20-22. For those believers who rebel and turn away, the rest of their lives TO THE END OF THEIR LIVES, will be MUCH WORSE than for any unbeliever.

When one speaks of "the end" of another, it refers to their life to the end of their life.

The idea that "the end" refers to entering eternity is ridiculous, since there is NO END to eternity. It's a non sequitur.

If I, having accepted and obeyed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, having received the benefit of His saving grace, great promises, and seal of redemption, make the conscious choice to rebel, to sin, to abandon His family, to crucify the Savior once more by my willfulness and blatant disregard of His immutable laws, I will stand before Him in eternal judgment condemned in eternity.

You are so wrong, it's just pitiful. But then, you just don't believe what Jesus said.

Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

He said it and you don't believe it.

And so will you if you make the same choices.

I don't believe any believer consciously chooses to make such choices later on.

This is not that hard to understand.

That's what I am thinking.

So, why DO you NOT believe what Jesus said? Just can't stomach the thought?

112358 · May 31, 2018

Doug Melven said:
In order for a recipient of eternal to perish John 10:28 cannot be true.
Because Jesus said they will never perish.

Herein lies the fallacy of logic in the interpretation of this scripture. If today I am a believing, practicing, faithful Christian, and next week I renounce my faith, curse God, adopt every sinful activity there is, murder, rape, pillage, and pronounce my allegiance to Satan himself...the logic states that I will nevertheless inherit eternal life, because Jesus said I would never perish. This is abject foolishness!

Now I know what comes next, which is the argument that I was never a "true believer" to begin with. Also complete foolishness. People of faith lose that faith all the time in every corner of the world. That is Satan's chief ambition and goal. He is after Christians first and foremost! Why would the lion seek to devour those whom are already his? Why would he have interest in destroying those who are already destroyed?

Seek truth!

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