Before Abraham was, I am

LittleLambofJesus · May 30, 2018

DamianWarS said:
the dialog is found here:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Jesus makes a statement that he knows Abraham then qualifies it saying "before Abraham was, I am" in verse 58. This invoked a hostile response and the Jews he was speaking with wanted to stone him, somehow Jesus hid himself and escaped.

What are the implications of such a statement? Why did the Jews want to stone him?

RDKirk said:
Primarily, that Jesus referred to himself by the Tetragrammaton--speaking aloud the term that the Jews avoided using except when explicitly calling to God--and emphasized it by asserting that He was present when God created the Jews themselves through Abraham.

That brings to mind this event in John 18, when troops sent by the religious rulers came to arrest Jesus.

As soon as Jesus said "I am He", they drew back and fell to the ground. Why?

John 18:3
So Judas brought a band of soldiers and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees.
They arrived at the garden carrying lanterns, torches, and weapons.
4 Jesus, knowing all that was coming upon Him, stepped forward and asked them, “Whom are you seeking?”
5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they answered.
Jesus said, “I AM He.”
And Judas, His betrayer, was standing there with them.

6 When Jesus said, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 So He asked them again, “Whom are you seeking?”
“Jesus of Nazareth,” they answered.
8 “I told you that I AM /egw eimi He,” Jesus replied. “So if you are looking for Me, let these men go.”
9 This was to fulfill the word He had spoken: “I have not lost one of those You have given Me.”

Eloy Craft · May 30, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Yes, 1 John 1 states that "the Word of life... was made manifest", (clearly) in the person of Jesus Christ.

The Word manifested by incarnation, indwelling, inhabiting, "tabernacling" within, Jesus the human.

The whole Godhead incarnated into Jesus the man. Hence he was Immaculately Conceived (by the Word), Prophesied (by the Holy Spirit), and even directly uttered the Divine Name "I AM" on numerous occasions (implying that God the Father was "live on the line" speaking through him directly).

Hi Erik. I gather that you don't believe that God became man? God Incarnate in the womb of His mother would Make His Mother the Taberancle. The way you describe Jesus doesn't conform to the Incarnation. It more closely conforms to Catholic teaching about Mary. The Immaculate Conception is even included as a term that describes Jesus conception. The way you describe the Incarnation, an indwelling Spirit doesn't express the truth of the Incarnation. I think you are a very smart guy so I doubt you are doing this symbol shifting on accident. If you are my apologies. I am curious to know if you are part of a community of faith or if you came up with this stuff all on your lonesome.

LittleLambofJesus · May 30, 2018

RDKirk said:
Primarily, that Jesus referred to himself by the Tetragrammaton--speaking aloud the term that the Jews avoided using except when explicitly calling to God--and emphasized it by asserting that He was present when God created the Jews themselves through Abraham.

YAHWEH is not shown in Exodus 3:14, but rather 'elohiym, perhaps speaking for YAHWEH?

Exodus 3:14
And 'Elohiym is saying to Mosheh, "I-shall-be/01961 hayah who I-shall-be/01961 hayah".
And-He saying "Thus you shall say to sons of Yisra'el, 'I-shall-be/01961 hayah, He-sent-me unto-you'".

Psalm 82:5
Not they know, and not they are understanding. In darkness they are going about, all of foundations of land are slipping. 6 I, I said gods/'Elohiym ye and sons of the Highest/'elyown all of ye';

430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

John 10:
34 Answered to them the JESUS-"Is Not it is having been Written in the law of ye that I say 'I said gods ye are'?
35 If those He said gods toward whom the Word of the God became and not is able to be broken/annulled the Writing
34 Answered to them the JESUS-"Is Not it is having been Written in the law of ye that I say 'I said gods/qeoi<2316> ye are'?
35 If those He said gods toward whom the Word of the God became and not is able to be broken/annulled the Writing

2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
The Word was in the beginning with God.

Divine plan, to Create earth and bring about a Christ Messiah, was also probably in the beginning with God.

Jesus the human was Immaculately Conceived, by the wondrous workings of the Word within the womb of Mary, some time around March of 1 BC.

The Word, the Holy Spirit, and possibly even God the Father, were incarnate within Jesus the human.

Thus did Jesus, fully human with a fully human nature, also experience a fully divine super-nature. Because the whole entire heavenly Godhead was incarnate within him, "tabernacling" within his human physical form.

(Which was Immaculately Conceived on earth around March of 1 BC, albeit all according to an aeons-old divine plan, which plan predates earth.)

"The Word, the Holy Spirit, and possibly even God the Father, were incarnate within Jesus the human"

WOW!!! Now you have two of the heresies that the early Church combated, alive in your remarks! Modalism, which denies the distinction of the Person within the Godhead, and Patripassianism, which teaches that God the Father was actually on the cross and suffered in Jesus Christ! Both are high ranking heresies, that are utterly damnable. Add to that another heresy, that Jesus Christ actually begat Himself in the womb of Mary, whereas the Holy Bible clearly says it was God the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand how you can continue to post on here?

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Wasn't it the Word which "begat" Jesus in the womb of Mary? The Word "tabernacled" within Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Prophesy. It's a "communication link" via which God informs humans with God's divine messages.

All the Prophets received the Holy Spirit. Essentially only Jesus also received the Word, which Immaculately Conceived him in Mary's womb (around March of 1 BC).

The Word is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity. Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit, Who is the Third Person in the Holy Trinity. Both are "distinct" though not "separate", as Persons.

"Now the birth of Jesus Christ happened this way: When his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 1:18)

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35)

Clearly states that Mary was "conceived" by God the Holy Spirit, through His power working in her

1213 · May 30, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
take a look at #279

I don’t think that gave answer to my question, is Paul also God, because he also says “ego eimi”?

But Paul said, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city. I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."
Acts 21:39

1213 · May 30, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
can you show me where there is "he" in the Greek text?

"εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι (I am), ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν"

So, are you saying that King James is wrong? Why do you think King James translation has the word “he” in that?

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

1213 said:
So, are you saying that King James is wrong? Why do you think King James translation has the word “he” in that?

Are you saying that because the KJV has "he", and the original Greek does not, that the KJV is right, and the actual writing of the Gospel is wrong?

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

1213 said:
I don’t think that gave answer to my question, is Paul also God, because he also says “ego eimi”?

But Paul said, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city. I beg you, allow me to speak to the people."
Acts 21:39

you have failed to grasp what I am saying

AvgJoe · May 30, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Well, how about one thing at a time...

You start with Scripture that reads, "In the beginning was the Word..."

You add your own mortal "traditions of men"...

And wind up saying, "In the beginning was [Jesus]…"

Where did I get that? John 1:15 says that John the Baptist bore witness of the Word. In versus 29 & 30, John said Jesus is the one of which he bore witness. Jesus is the Word, the Word is Jesus.

Erik Nelson said:
Once again, the physical human form was only created, in the image of God the Father, on the 6th Biblical Day...

there is no way Jesus the human existed prior to Creation... not physically...

But, please don't get me wrong, God's divine plan, to bring about Jesus as the Christ Messiah, was in fact pre-existing, prior to Creation...

Prior to Creation, Jesus the human "existed" as a concept, along with a long-term divine plan to bring him about, according to God's will. But the physical flesh and blood, while foreordained by God before the foundation of earth, was only Immaculately Conceived, in actual physical fact, around March of 1 BC or so.

Yes I agree, Jesus' physical body and human nature did not exist until it was conceived, within Mary's body, by the Holy Spirit. The wording I used in John 1:1 indicates otherwise.

(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14. And the Word was made flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Grip Docility · May 30, 2018

Curve ball. Oh how I like those.

In Corinthians, we find that the Pillar Of Fire by Night and the Cloud by day was, Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

Oh, sure Jesus didn’t have a flesh and blood human Body in the OT, yet, but something is up when Hebrews Calls Jesus the very Glory of God and that phrase goes way back.

Ahem, Bible fun time.

Exodus 33:7Now Moses used to take the tent and pitch it outside the camp, far off from the camp, and he called it the tent of meeting. And everyone who sought the LORD would go out to the tent of meeting, which was outside the camp. 8Whenever Moses went out to the tent, all the people would rise up, and each would stand at his tent door, and watch Moses until he had gone into the tent. 9When Moses entered the tent, the pillar of cloud would descend and stand at the entrance of the tent, and the LORDa would speak with Moses. 10And when all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent, all the people would rise up and worship, each at his tent door. 11Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Who’s that?

And again, We have Colossians Saying He’s the Creator.

Who’s this?

Genesis 3:8

And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden

Foot steps, people. :0

Who’s this?

Exodus 33:22

and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by.

Uh Oh! Hebrews says The SON IS THE GLORY!

First person to drop the word metaphor didn’t read close enough.

justbyfaith · May 30, 2018

Jesus said, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24.

You had better be darn sure that Jesus is not claiming to be God by the statement of I AM, if you don't believe that Jesus is God, because Jesus stakes your salvation on whether you believe He is the Great I AM or not.

In John 8:58, Jesus breaks normal grammatical usage to make the statement of I AM. It should have been in past tense, I WAS, if He was not making some sort of claim here.

The Jews understood what He was saying. They picked up stones to stone Him (for blasphemy, because they understood He was claiming to be God by referring back to Exodus 3:14) in John 8:59.

Then later they picked up stones to stone Him again.

When He asked them why they did so, they responded, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:31-33)

1213 · May 31, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
Are you saying that because the KJV has "he", and the original Greek does not, that the KJV is right, and the actual writing of the Gospel is wrong?

I don’t say original scripture is wrong. I think King James translation has the “he”, because it understands correctly what Jesus is saying and to what he is answering.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 31, 2018

1213 said:
I don’t say original scripture is wrong. I think King James translation has the “he”, because it understands correctly what Jesus is saying and to what he is answering.

the KJV has "he", because the KJV is WRONG. Plain and simple! no need to make excuses for it. After all, it is a human translation. Let me give you some glaring grammatical mistakes in the KJV.

1, Acts 2:47,
Greek Text, "ὁ δὲ κύριος προσετίθει τοὺς σωζομένους καθ̕ ἡμέραν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό"
KJV, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved"
Actual translation, "And the Lord added to the church daily such as were being saved"

No Calvinism in the Greek!

2, Titus 2:13,
Greek Text, "καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ"
KJV, "and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
Actual translation, "and the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

KJV can be taken to mean Two Persons, "the great God", and "our Saviour Jesus Christ". Greek is very clear that One Person is only meant, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who IS, "Great God and Saviour"

3, 2 Peter 1:1,
Greek Text, "δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ"
KJV, "the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"
Actual translation, "the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ"

Like Titus 2:13, only One Person is clearly meant, not Two as the KJV has it.

Erik Nelson · May 31, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
"The Word, the Holy Spirit, and possibly even God the Father, were incarnate within Jesus the human"

WOW!!! Now you have two of the heresies that the early Church combated, alive in your remarks! Modalism, which denies the distinction of the Person within the Godhead, and Patripassianism, which teaches that God the Father was actually on the cross and suffered in Jesus Christ! Both are high ranking heresies, that are utterly damnable. Add to that another heresy, that Jesus Christ actually begat Himself in the womb of Mary, whereas the Holy Bible clearly says it was God the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand how you can continue to post on here?

I listed the three (3) persons of the Godhead separately, as you yourself quoted me.

And what are you taking "incarnate" to mean? It's the same as "inspire", "indwell", "inhabit", "tabernacle in", correct ?

And you are the one conflating Jesus the human and the divine Word [Logos], not me.

For someone who claims to be seeking after truth, you sure invent a lot of falsehood, Slander & Accusation to tarnish others

TheBibleIsTruth · May 31, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
I listed the three (3) persons of the Godhead separately, as you yourself quoted me.

And what are you taking "incarnate" to mean? It's the same as "inspire", "indwell", "inhabit", "tabernacle in", correct ?

And you are the one conflating Jesus the human and the divine Word [Logos], not me.

For someone who claims to be seeking after truth, you sure invent a lot of falsehood, Slander & Accusation to tarnish others

""The Word, the Holy Spirit, and possibly even God the Father, were incarnate within Jesus the human"

show me this in the Holy Bible

Erik Nelson · May 31, 2018

justbyfaith said:
Jesus said, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24.

You had better be darn sure that Jesus is not claiming to be God by the statement of I AM, if you don't believe that Jesus is God, because Jesus stakes your salvation on whether you believe He is the Great I AM or not.

In John 8:58, Jesus breaks normal grammatical usage to make the statement of I AM. It should have been in past tense, I WAS, if He was not making some sort of claim here.

The Jews understood what He was saying. They picked up stones to stone Him (for blasphemy, because they understood He was claiming to be God by referring back to Exodus 3:14) in John 8:59.

Then later they picked up stones to stone Him again.

When He asked them why they did so, they responded, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." (John 10:31-33)

I guess I'm not sure what word to use... But Jesus the man, walking around on earth, was "obviously" not God the Father in heaven, correct?

Is it not "clear" that Jesus was speaking as if he were indwelt / inspired / inhabited / tabernacled in by God the Father?

Is it not plainly apparent, that Jesus was speaking as if Godly Power was "more immanent" within him than in even the Prophets of the OT, who usually spoke about God in the 3rd person, "Thus sayeth the LORD..." ?

The physical human form standing before the Jews was not God... but God was dwelling within that form, far more "directly" and immanently than ever before ?

The verses you cited demand we admit, that God the Father in heaven was "tabernacling within" Jesus, as the chosen Christ Messiah ?

Erik Nelson · May 31, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
""The Word, the Holy Spirit, and possibly even God the Father, were incarnate within Jesus the human"

show me this in the Holy Bible

Jesus uttered the divine royal first person, "I AM" -- indicating the divine presence of God the Father

The divine Word tabernacled within Jesus (John 1)

The Holy Spirit immaculately conceived Jesus in Mary's womb, as you yourself proved -- plus Scripture is God-breathed by the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Prophesy, and Jesus' sayings were so inspired and thus make up much of the NT

Q.E.D. ?

TheBibleIsTruth · May 31, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Jesus uttered the divine royal first person, "I AM" -- indicating the divine presence of God the Father

Jesus is The I AM, because this is the Name of God, YWHW, which in the Hebrew is the same root. By saying "ἐγὼ εἰμί", Jesus is NOT saying that He is the Father, but that He is Almighty God, a distinct Person from the Father and Holy Spirit

The divine Word tabernacled within Jesus (John 1)

No, The Eternal Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, did not indwell a human body, but took on human nature, thus becoming the God-Man, 100% God and 100% Man, at the same time. Not Two Persons, but Two natures, Divine and human.

The Holy Spirit immaculately conceived Jesus in Mary's womb, as you yourself proved -- plus Scripture is God-breathed by the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Prophesy, and Jesus' sayings were so inspired and thus make up much of the NT

Does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit is the same Person as Jesus Christ

Q.E.D. ?

Erik Nelson · May 31, 2018

Randy777 said:
A "body" was prepared for Him. Jesus is a being not a word or people or radiance and such a being as Jesus would make such a statement" before Abraham was I Am" in reply to "you are not yet 50 years old and you know Abraham."
I believe Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit so the Son born was/is called the Son of the Most High God. I believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.

I suddenly feel like I'm confused about what words mean

But I think we're saying approximately the same thing

That "body" prepared for him... was a very long long time in the preparation...

The "blue prints" existed from the beginning...

and every step of Creation was aimed at bringing that body about, gradually, eventually, inexorably

Before Abraham was, I am

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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