Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
I'm sure you are painfully aware that there are NO VERSES in the Bible that plainly state that salvation can be lost, right?
Sigh. Here are a few to begin with (in addition to the one already quoted, which you have yet to address):
1 Timothy 4:1
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 3:12-19
Hebrews 10:26-31
Hebrews 10:39
In fact, the ENTIRE BOOK of Hebrews is written to Christian Jews as a treatise to avoid leaving the faith, crucifying afresh the Son of God, and LOSING their SALVATION.
Revelation 2:4-5, Revelation 3:11
2 Corinthians 11:3, 2 Corinthians 9:27, 2 Corinthians 10:12, 2 Corinthians 13:5
Romans 11:19-22
Matthew 24:10-13 (Words of Jesus Christ)
James 5:19-20, James 1:12
1 Thessalonians 3:8
Mark 4:17 (Words of Jesus Christ)
Not any of these verses say that salvation can be lost. It must be ASSUMED or PRESUMED to mean that. But none of them say so.

Yet, John 10:28 plainly says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But go ahead and try to prove that Jesus didn't really mean what He said.
 
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112358

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FreeGrace2 said:
I'm sure you are painfully aware that there are NO VERSES in the Bible that plainly state that salvation can be lost, right?

Not any of these verses say that salvation can be lost. It must be ASSUMED or PRESUMED to mean that. But none of them say so.

Yet, John 10:28 plainly says that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

But go ahead and try to prove that Jesus didn't really mean what He said.

I can see you are quite convicted in your beliefs. I admire that. I plan to continue searching and studying. I hope you will do the same. For now I must agree to disagree. See you around.
 
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justbyfaith

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It's now quite obvious that you haven't even read my posts. So why am I having any discussion with you?

I am the one who had to remind you that Jesus is God, is omniscient. Is God completely holy in nature and character? Of course He is.

So your question is totally stupid and worthless. You need to be concerned about yourself, since you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 by your continuing to FORCE conditions in the verse that AREN'T THERE.
By your statement, Of course he is, indicates to me that you are only agreeing with this because you have to, not because you actually believe with your heart that He is holy in nature and character.

But let's go with your confession. Jesus is completely holy in nature and character. Is He going to judge people from the perspective that He is holy?

Is there any respect of persons with God? (see Colossians 3:25, Romans 2:6-11)

Will a God who is completely holy in nature and character, allow into heaven someone who, when they get into heaven, will continue to practice iniquity? Note that when we sin, it is not only in the flesh that we commit sin; but that when we sin we commit sin with our soul and spirit also. Therefore when the flesh is gone, if we are committing sins of the soul and spirit in this life, what is to prevent us from continuing to commit such sins when we get into heaven? Do we not deal with our idolatry towards sin in this life? Doesn't the Lord seek to bring us to that place of surrender while we are still alive?

And if we don't come to that place of surrender in this life, how can we presume that God will allow us into heaven so that we can continue in heaven to commit those same sins? Sin is of the soul and spirit, not only of the flesh. Spirit and soul and body are intertwined.

So if we have a hope in Jesus that when He appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is, we also purify ourselves, even as He is pure: He does in us in advance what we are hoping for Him to do when He returns, in our soul and in our spirit, so that the work of sanctification is perfected within us, even in the practical sense. We are made pure and holy.

Therefore a God who is completely holy in nature and character will judge sinners according to their sin; and He is no respecter of persons. So if I say to him, "But I thought..." "...that I believed in you and that I was positionally sanctified in you..." "...that I was justified and that your blood covered all of my sins..." "...that I was a recipient of eternal life and therefore could never perish..." but if I was never born again of the Holy Spirit, so that my life was transformed through sanctification of the Spirit, He will say unto me, I never knew you...you may have thought that you had eternal security in me, but you were only deceiving yourself, or you were deceived by @FreeGrace2, or you didn't take into account all of the scriptures that were presented to you over a period of time...and He may even bring you through those scriptures again, and tell you what He says about them, and also you will smack your head with your hand and say, "How could I have been so stupid..." but then it will be too late.
 
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justbyfaith

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It's now quite obvious that you haven't even read my posts. So why am I having any discussion with you?

I am the one who had to remind you that Jesus is God, is omniscient. Is God completely holy in nature and character? Of course He is.

So your question is totally stupid and worthless. You need to be concerned about yourself, since you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 by your continuing to FORCE conditions in the verse that AREN'T THERE.
You never had to remind me that Jesus is God. I believe that wholeheartedly, and would never say anything to the contrary. But I made it clear when I entered this discussion a few posts ago that I did not read the ninety-four or so pages that had been presented before I entered the fray. So you might have to catch me up on anything that you think I may have missed.
 
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justbyfaith

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Those with discernment understand what Jeremiah was saying. God would withold His blessings IF the people forsook Him. Pretty straightforward.
I agree that those with discernment will understand. But what they will understand is the meaning of forsake. It does not mean to withhold blessings from, it means to leave entirely. God will even forsake them, even leave them entirely.

For what does forsake mean in Hebrews 13:5? That verse could be taken to mean that God will never withhold his blessings from them, but that He might leave them.
 
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Doug Melven

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The New Covenant is conditional (Matthew 7:21).
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Just because someone says "Lord, Lord" does not mean they are born-again.
So this verse does not say God's New Covenant is unconditional.
It does say those who do the will of the Father will enter. And His will is that we should believe on the Son. John 6:40
We can wrongly employ our free will to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8).
Can a child do something so evil that his parents will disown him? Possibly a wicked parent could do such a thing.
But not a parent who loves there child.
There is a reason God calls us His children. And we are to call Him Abba Father.
So you are mistaken in your interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-29

Matthew 5:18 did not mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus Christ had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before He could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
You added that in there about what Jesus meant. Because He said "Not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away till all was fulfilled".
Jesus did not say that it was only the things concerning Him.
Philippians 1:6 does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).
Then those verses are not talking about the same subject.
In your doctrine you have zero confidence that God will finish what He started in others.
You may have some confidence in your own ability to keep yourself saved, but you can't say with 100% certainty that you will be saved.
In Philippians 1:6 Paul was confident that God would finish what He started in the Philippians.
Therefore your doctrine is false.


Doug Melven said in post #1856:

God has promised to not take away the Covenant of peace from us.
Bible2+ said
With conditions (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).

2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Does this verse say if we suffer with we will earn eternal life? No.
So what makes you think Jesus will deny us eternal life from this verse?

Doug Melven said in post #1856:

So your idea that our freewill can separate us from God's love has just been triply debunked.
Bible 2+ said
No, for it can (Hebrews 10:26-29).
I suppose you are ok with Scripture contradicting itself so you can teach your doctrine.
This verse has been explained many times to you, and yet you persist in this error.
For your interpretation to be true means something can separate us from God's love.

Doug Melven said in post #1856:

You make the wrong assumption that God will reveal His knowledge of what He sees in you to you.
Bible2+ said
He does (Revelation 3:19).
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

2 Corinthians 12:21 lest again when I come my God should humble me before you, and I should mourn for many of them that have sinned heretofore, and repented not of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they committed.

David was not around when these 2 NT verses were given. And they have nothing to do with subject.
You claimed that David was asking God to reveal his sin to him. Then you show 2 unrelated NT verses to prove your point.

Doug Melven said in post #1861:

[Ps.] 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Bible2+ said
With conditions (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29).
If there were conditions to be met, then God didn't preserve His saints forever.
He would have had to wait till they died, but the verse doesn't say that.

Doug Melven said in post #1861:

Proverbs 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
Bible2+ said
The latter half, like the first half, refers to a believer, and the keyword is "keepeth". Contrast 2 Peter. 2:20-22.

You completely missed the point of what I was saying.
We keep ourselves from evil and preserve our souls.
God preserves our spirits forever.
There is a very good reason not to sin. Sin causes its own trouble in our lives.
If a person looks at inappropriate contentography, the way they perceive people will be changed, they will only see people as sex objects.
People who get addicted to drugs only see people as a way to satisfy there addiction.

Sin will not cost us our salvation, for that is sealed by the Holy Spirit.
I know you are going to quote Hebrews 3:12-13
3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
But this is not talking about eternal life, but about us having victory in this life.
Plus we have the promise of Hebrews 13:5 which has no conditions.
He will never leave us or forsake us.
Notice the double promise in that verse?
He promises He won't leave us. Like if we were to do something wrong, He would have to leave us.
He also promises He won't forsake us, for instance if we leave Him, He won't forsake us so we will be left to our own devices.
Therefore there can be no conditions. And if you show a verse that looks like it, you have misinterpreted that verse. Because there are no contradictions in the Bible.
 
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Doug Melven

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And of course, within the very verse itself, Jeremiah is told to give the word of, I will even forsake you, to this people. It is clear that the lying prophets are telling the people that God is for them when He is in all actuality quite angry with them. So Jeremiah is to tell this people that God will even forsake them.
Are you not familiar with the whole subject of Jeremiah?
The people had not been doing what was right, not keeping the Sabbath and many other things.
So God told them through Jeremiah that they were going into captivity in Babylon for 70 years.
The people did not like this message. There were lying prophets who spoke against this message. but the people liked the lying prophets message.
They liked the comfort message given by the lying prophets.
Then they were saying what is the word of the Lord?
People that wanted a comfort message asked this.
Priests that wanted a comfort message asked this.
Lying prophets wanted a comfort message asked this.
So God told Jeremiah to tell those 3 types of people that He would forsake them.
And His forsaking them did not change the fact that they were still His people and they were still going to Babylon.
But those who believe in OSAS twist the meanings of words within those scriptures to force them into the mold of OSAS.
Just like some who teach initial/ultimate salvation twist words.
John 10:28 has been dealt with over and over again. So now you are even taking it out of context. because the context of it is that it is to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows. And He never knew, and does not know, those who work and/or do iniquity.
Children of God are not referred to as workers of iniquity.
How can it be that both you and Jesus are right?
You say a recipient of eternal life can perish if they don't meet certain criteria.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life will never perish.
One of the two is wrong. I believe Jesus is right.
NO conditions? not even faith in Jesus Christ? Anyone with a kindergarten education can see that this translates into Universalism.
Whoever said that we didn't have to be born-again by faith?
 
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LoveofTruth

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v.28 is a single sentence with the CAUSE of having eternal life (how one receives it) and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE? Jesus Christ, who said "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT? SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said, "and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish....
Jesus gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.
Listen to what Jesus said in the next chapter of John,

John 11:25, 26
"25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"


Notice that to "never die" (or never perish this is the same intent) they must believeth in him, and this belief must be continual faith abiding unto the end or we will die and perish and be cut off and cast into the fire. as scripture shows.

Jesus speaks of a future "shall" he live and a present shall never die as long as they continue to believe.

John 3:15
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."


Colossians 1:23
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel..."


2 Timothy 4:7
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"


1 Peter 1:5
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."


1 Timothy 6:12
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."


What would be the need of such a verse to fight the fight of faith and lay hold of eternal life if eternal life could not be lost? This was Jesus speaking through Paul.

1 Timothy 6:19
"Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."
 
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LoveofTruth

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Can a child do something so evil that his parents will disown him? Possibly a wicked parent could do such a thing.
But not a parent who loves there child.
2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:"


Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"


Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."


and in the OT law we read

"18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.""17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."(Deuteronomy 21 21:18-21 KJV)
 
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Doug Melven

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Sigh. Here are a few to begin with (in addition to the one already quoted, which you have yet to address):
Not one single verse shows loss of eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
We have eternal life because we are born-again by faith. It is not our faith that keeps us born-again, it is God's power.
We have faith in Him as His children, and that faith gets us rewards. Hebrews 11:6
If that faith is gone, so are the rewards. Still born-again though. Still sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of redemption.
Hebrews 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
When you read the first 3 verses of this chapter you can see that this is not talking about a believer losing his salvation/ born-again state.
Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: 14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: 15 while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses?
17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Could not enter the promised land because of unbelief. We need to continue to believe, not to be born-again as that is a done deal, but to have a victorious Christian life.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on [the word of] two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is not talking about a child of God. But you say it says he was sanctified by the blood.
10:10 shows all are sanctified. That is Christ died for all, and all are set apart. Not everybody gets saved as Universalists teach.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Our souls are not going to be with Jesus in the afterlife, our spirits.
so the perdition here is not talking about the Lake of fire.
The word for perdition is G684. It means ruin or loss. It can be physical, spiritual or eternal.
So the context of the verse must determine which it is. Our souls are not eternal.

Revelation 2:4 But I have [this] against thee, that thou didst leave thy first love.
5 Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou repent.

This is a message to a church, how can it be about individual loss of salvation?

Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Cut off from what? 11:29 says God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, are irrevocable.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray.
12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold.
13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Saved from what?
Do you believe in salvation by grace? Or works?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which [the Lord] promised to them that love him.

We are saved by grace through faith. We do good works for crowns, not to get or stay saved.

James 5:19 My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.

You quoting this is funny as it contradicts an earlier quote of yours, Hebrews 6:4-6, where it says it impossible once someone has fallen away to renew them again to repentance.

1 Thessalonians 3:8 8 for now we live, if ye stand fast in the Lord.

Now our salvation is dependent on others standing fast?
Paul did not believe his salvation was dependent on others standing fast, because Demas forsook him.
When others stand fast we have joy, this has nothing to do with our salvation.
 
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Doug Melven

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Will a God who is completely holy in nature and character, allow into heaven someone who, when they get into heaven, will continue to practice iniquity? Note that when we sin, it is not only in the flesh that we commit sin; but that when we sin we commit sin with our soul and spirit also.
We do not sin in our spirit. He that is born of God does not sin. I john 3:9

For what does forsake mean in Hebrews 13:5? That verse could be taken to mean that God will never withhold his blessings from them, but that He might leave them.
That verse also says He won't leave us.
2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:"


Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:"


Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."


and in the OT law we read

"18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.""17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."(Deuteronomy 21 21:18-21 KJV)
In the NT passages note who these children are.
cursed children - not blessed of the Father
children of disobedience - Not talking about God's children for we are not appointed to wrath.
children of wrath - why you brought this one up I have no clue. Before God saved us we were all children of wrath.

As for the OT passage, did stoning him mean he was not there child, they had him stoned, they didn't disown the rebellious child.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I can see you are quite convicted in your beliefs. I admire that. I plan to continue searching and studying. I hope you will do the same. For now I must agree to disagree. See you around.
Please start with John 10:28 and try to prove to yourself that Jesus didn't say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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By your statement, Of course he is, indicates to me that you are only agreeing with this because you have to, not because you actually believe with your heart that He is holy in nature and character.
Of course I have to believe that Jesus is holy in nature and character. Because I believe He is fully God. What's the matter with you anyway, for making such a stupid statement?

But let's go with your confession. Jesus is completely holy in nature and character. Is He going to judge people from the perspective that He is holy?
Of course He is.

Is there any respect of persons with God? (see Colossians 3:25, Romans 2:6-11)
Nope.

Will a God who is completely holy in nature and character, allow into heaven someone who, when they get into heaven, will continue to practice iniquity?
Lot's of very silly questions here.

No one will "continue to practice iniquity" in heaven. What's gotten into you?

Note that when we sin, it is not only in the flesh that we commit sin; but that when we sin we commit sin with our soul and spirit also.
Well, wrong again. No one sins from their spirit. That's what has been born again, or regenerated. And where the Holy Spirit lives.

Therefore when the flesh is gone, if we are committing sins of the soul and spirit in this life, what is to prevent us from continuing to commit such sins when we get into heaven?
I just can hardly believe anyone would even think to ask such ridiculous questions.

When the flesh is gone, so is the sin.

And if we don't come to that place of surrender in this life, how can we presume that God will allow us into heaven so that we can continue in heaven to commit those same sins? Sin is of the soul and spirit, not only of the flesh. Spirit and soul and body are intertwined.
You need to get over the nonsense that anyone in heaven is even capable of sin.

Where in the world did you learn such nonsense?
 
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FreeGrace2

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You never had to remind me that Jesus is God. I believe that wholeheartedly, and would never say anything to the contrary.
Then why do you say contrary to what Jesus said in John 10:28, and what Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23?

But I made it clear when I entered this discussion a few posts ago that I did not read the ninety-four or so pages that had been presented before I entered the fray. So you might have to catch me up on anything that you think I may have missed.
I do, every time you post.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I agree that those with discernment will understand. But what they will understand is the meaning of forsake. It does not mean to withhold blessings from, it means to leave entirely. God will even forsake them, even leave them entirely.
Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever. But it seems you don't believe that either.

For what does forsake mean in Hebrews 13:5? That verse could be taken to mean that God will never withhold his blessings from them, but that He might leave them.
I totally reject that the Bible is contradictory. And from what Jesus said in John 10:28, God will never leave or forsake His children. You might, but not God.

I guess you don't believe these either:

Deut 31
6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”

8 The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.”

However, I do believe them.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
v.28 is a single sentence with the CAUSE of having eternal life (how one receives it) and the EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE? Jesus Christ, who said "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT? SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus said, "and they (recipients of eternal life) shall never perish....
Jesus gave no conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.
Listen to what Jesus said in the next chapter of John,
Before we do, I noticed that you have ignored the FACT I pointed out in John 10:28 that the CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself, for He is the One who gives it, and the EFFECT of having eternal life is to never perish.

This is what you cannot get around.

John 11:25, 26
"25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"


Notice that to "never die" (or never perish this is the same intent) they must believeth in him, and this belief must be continual faith abiding unto the end or we will die and perish and be cut off and cast into the fire. as scripture shows.

How come we don't find the words "must be continual faith abiding unto the end" here?

Please stop cutting and pasting in your desperate attempt to conflate Scriptures.

John 11:25-27 teaches eternal security just as 10:28 does.


Jesus speaks of a future "shall" he live and a present shall never die as long as they continue to believe.

John 3:15

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal
life."

The word "continue" doesn't occur here. Where are you getting your false ideas?

Colossians 1:23
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel..."

Just back up to v.22 for the context of the "if" clause. God will present the believer holy and blameless IF they continue in the faith. See? Nothing about continue in the faith in order to be saved.

2 Timothy 4:7
"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"


1 Peter 1:5
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."


1 Timothy 6:12
"Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."


What would be the need of such a verse to fight the fight of faith and lay hold of eternal life if eternal life could not be lost? This was Jesus speaking through Paul.

Paul wasn't speaking of any possibility of losing salvation.

1 Timothy 6:19
"Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life."
A reference to eternal reward, something that the OSNAS crowd seems quite unaware of.
 
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justbyfaith

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To you, salvation is only from the penalty of sin, not sin itself, contrary to what it says in Matthew 1:21.

@Doug Melven wrote:

Children of God are not referred to as workers of iniquity.
How can it be that both you and Jesus are right?
You say a recipient of eternal life can perish if they don't meet certain criteria.
Jesus said recipients of eternal life will never perish.
One of the two is wrong. I believe Jesus is right.

No, I'm saying that if they don't meet certain criteria, they are not recipients of eternal life in the first place. I believe Jesus is right, too; and that the apostle John would not contradict him when he spoke on the same subject in such verses as 1 John 2:17 as compared to 1 John 3:6.

@Doug Melven wrote:

We do not sin in our spirit. He that is born of God does not sin. I john 3:9

@FreeGrace2 wrote:

Well, wrong again. No one sins from their spirit. That's what has been born again, or regenerated. And where the Holy Spirit lives.

This is Gnosticism: for in Gnosticism is the concept that matter is evil and spirit is good, so what we do with our spirit cannot be sin, but that what we do with our flesh is sin. Therefore in Gnosticism, it doesn't matter what we do in the flesh, because our spirit isn't involved. Tell us how this is any different from what both of you have purported here. Because you have said basically the same thing: that when we sin with the flesh, the spirit is not involved. In fact, the way you quoted that above, we don't even really sin when we commit sins of the flesh.

But the reality is that in true and faithful Christian doctrine, which gnosticism was the deadly enemy of, when sin is committed in the flesh it is also committed in the soul and spirit. For body and soul and spirit are intertwined. If I do something with my body therefore, my mind, emotions, and will (my soul) and my spirit also, is involved. If I sin with my body I cannot divorce that sin from who I really am as a person, my soul and spirit.

@Doug Melven wrote:

He promises He won't leave us. Like if we were to do something wrong, He would have to leave us.
He also promises He won't forsake us, for instance if we leave Him, He won't forsake us so we will be left to our own devices.
Therefore there can be no conditions. And if you show a verse that looks like it, you have misinterpreted that verse. Because there are no contradictions in the Bible.

However, I think that you have misinterpreted John 10:28. It is obvious from the context that this promise in John 10:28 is a promise to Jesus' sheep, whom He knows. But He never knew, and does not know, those who work or do iniquity. Therefore such people are not Jesus' sheep and not recipients of the promise: they cannot bank their eternal security on John 10:28. To have that assurance, they would have to look at all verses in the Bible on the subject of eternal security, for example, 1 John 2:17, which says that whosoever does the will of God abideth for ever. And understanding that the one who abideth in Him sinneth not. (That 180-degree turn from sin toward righteousness is what I am talking about).

Therefore I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible, but that your interpretation of John 10:28 is faulty. It does not assure the sinner that he has eternal life, and shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck him out of Jesus' hand. For he is not in Jesus' hand. This scripture gives assurance only to the saint, the one who has turned away from a sinful lifestyle and is pursuing a life of holiness.
 
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justbyfaith

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Please start with John 10:28 and try to prove to yourself that Jesus didn't say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
The question that is not being asked is, who is a recipient of eternal life? And I believe you have the wrong answer to that question.
 
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Doug Melven

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To you, salvation is only from the penalty of sin, not sin itself, contrary to what it says in Matthew 1:21.
If you had read the body of my posts, not just this thread you would know I do not believe that.
Salvation is much more than just being saved from going to hell or the penalty of sin.
Jesus died not only to give us eternal life, that is immortality, but so we could have eternal life, that is zoe life, an abundant life only promised to Jesus' sheep.
The immortality part is for after this life.
The zoe part is for this life.
Because of what Jesus did on the cross we can be Blessed of God, accepted in the Beloved.
As children of God we do not have to be sick anymore. But for this we must actively believe the promises of God.

This is Gnosticism: for in Gnosticism is the concept that matter is evil and spirit is good,
I am not a Gnostic.
But Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And 1 John 3:9 says he that is born of God does not sin.
Matter is not evil, spirit is not necessarily good, unless it is the Holy Spirit or our born-again spirit which is one with God.
Therefore I agree that there are no contradictions in the Bible, but that your interpretation of John 10:28 is faulty. It does not assure the sinner that he has eternal life, and shall never perish, neither shall anyone pluck him out of Jesus' hand. For he is not in Jesus' hand. This scripture gives assurance only to the saint, the one who has turned away from a sinful lifestyle and is pursuing a life of holiness.
For someone to just say they are in Christ, does not actually mean they are in Christ.
Just as James says that those who say they have faith doesn't necessarily mean they have faith.
But for the born-again believer John 10:28 is assurance of eternal security. For recipients of eternal life will never perish.
John 10:28 is not only about the fact that we will live forever in eternity, but also about the zoe life Jesus gives to those who are born-again.
 
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