Before Abraham was, I am

klutedavid · May 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
agree with you mostly!

must you make such a strong statement? Jesus said there were things that "not even the Son" knew, only "God the Father" in heaven (=YHWH). The Son sits at the "right hand" of God, exalted by the same... yet the Millennium of Christ (Rev 20) is not identical to the Eternity of God (Rev 21-22).

For most mere mortals, the princely Son might as well be the kingly Father, yet they are not precisely identical

I see Jesus as the very fullness of God in a human form!

Jesus was with the Father before the world began by the way.

Jesus humbled Himself to become one of us, and the world never would understood His true identity.

LittleLambofJesus · May 29, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I mean it in the same sense it appears in the Creed:

the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)

TheBibleIsTruth said:
the creeds are NOT the same as the Holy Bible. one of the oldest creed, known as The Old Roman Creed, which Dr Kelly, in his book, Early Christian Creeds, dates from the 2nd century A.D. reads,

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, Born of the Virgin Mary"
(Old Roman Creed Greek and Latin Texts with English translation)

Note that it uses "only", which in the Latin text, is "unicum", which is , "one and only, unique". If it were "only begotten", then the Latin would be, "unigenitus". But this is not the case.

I get the distinct impression from your arguments, that you are not really interested in arriving at the actual truth on this, but that you have your preconceived ideas on this, which is mainly based on "creeds", and anything else is not important. There is nothing more that can be said to you on this.

ewq1938 said:
I think it best to get back to your denial that Christ was the only begotten of the Father, which you said was "impossible".

TheBibleIsTruth said:
for the last time I will say this. As Almighty God it is IMPOSSIBLE that Jesus Christ could ever have been "begotten" by the Father. this applies ONLY to the Incarnation in Mary.

BobRyan said:
It is true that God the Son was never born or begotten.

"This day have I begotten Thee" -

Acts 13:33
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’

Ps 2:7 "“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

God sees the future as we see the past only better.

TheBibleIsTruth said:
These verses all refer to the Incarnation of the Lord Jesus

Eloy Craft said:
How can God be a Father of God?

TheBibleIsTruth said:
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is YHWH?

Eloy Craft said:
No

klutedavid said:
I see Jesus as the very fullness of God in a human form!

Jesus was with the Father before the world began by the way.

Jesus humbled Himself to become one of us, and the world never would understood His true identity.

I suppose that is one reason the Jews and Muslims are confused, although they both need Jesus.....

Trinity - Wikipedia

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Greek τριάς and τριάδα, from Latin: trinus "threefold") [2] holds that God is one but three coeternal consubstantial persons [3] or hypostases[4]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[5] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[6][7][8] Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian.

One God in Three Persons

In Trinitarian doctrine, God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being, having a single divine nature.[64] The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will. As stated in the Athanasian Creed, the Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated, and all three are eternal without beginning.[65] "The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" are not names for different parts of God, but one name for God[66] because three persons exist in God as one entity.[67] They cannot be separate from one another. Each person is understood as having the identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.[68]

For Trinitarians, emphasis in Genesis 1:26 is on the plurality in the Deity, and in 1:27 on the unity of the divine Essence. A possible interpretation of Genesis 1:26 is that God's relationships in the Trinity are mirrored in man by the ideal relationship between husband and wife, two persons becoming one flesh, as described in Eve's creation later in the next chapter.[2:22]

Fundamental monotheism
Main article: Monotheism
Christianity, having emerged from Judaism, is a monotheistic religion. Never in the New Testament does the Trinitarian concept become a "tritheism" (three Gods) nor even two.[63] God is one, and that God is a single being is strongly declared in the Bible:

Nontrinitarianism
Main article: Nontrinitarianism
Nontrinitarianism (or antitrinitarianism) refers to Christian belief systems that reject the doctrine of the Trinity as found in the Nicene Creed as not having a scriptural origin. Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 360, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus, respectively.[136]

Judaism
See also: God in Judaism, Judaism's view of Jesus, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]uf
Judaism traditionally maintains a tradition of monotheism to the exclusion of the possibility of a Trinity.[138] In Judaism, God is understood to be the absolute one, indivisible, and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence. The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[150]

Islamic views
Main articles: Islamic view of the Trinity and Shirk (Islam)
Islam considers Jesus to be a prophet, but not divine,[138] and Allah to be absolutely indivisible (a concept known as tawhid).[139] Several verses of the Qur'an state that the doctrine of the Trinity is blasphemous.[140][141]

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

— Qur'an, sura 112 (Al-Ikhlas), ayat 1–4[142]
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
It is true that God the Son was never born or begotten.

"This day have I begotten Thee" -

Acts 13:33
33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son; today I have begotten You.’

Ps 2:7 "“I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."

The NT and OT writers are in error?? - or ??? what exactly are you proposing?

The "raised up" you refer to is the First Coming of Jesus, as is very clear from Deuteronomy 18:15, "“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen". Nothing to do with any "resurrection"

TheBibleIsTruth · May 29, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
I suppose that is one reason the Jews and Muslims are confused, although they both need Jesus.....

Trinity - Wikipedia

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Greek τριάς and τριάδα, from Latin: trinus "threefold") [2] holds that God is one but three coeternal consubstantial persons [3] or hypostases[4]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[5] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[6][7][8] Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian.

One God in Three Persons

In Trinitarian doctrine, God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being, having a single divine nature.[64] The members of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal, one in essence, nature, power, action, and will. As stated in the Athanasian Creed, the Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated, and all three are eternal without beginning.[65] "The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" are not names for different parts of God, but one name for God[66] because three persons exist in God as one entity.[67] They cannot be separate from one another. Each person is understood as having the identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.[68]

For Trinitarians, emphasis in Genesis 1:26 is on the plurality in the Deity, and in 1:27 on the unity of the divine Essence. A possible interpretation of Genesis 1:26 is that God's relationships in the Trinity are mirrored in man by the ideal relationship between husband and wife, two persons becoming one flesh, as described in Eve's creation later in the next chapter.[2:22]

Fundamental monotheism
Main article: Monotheism
Christianity, having emerged from Judaism, is a monotheistic religion. Never in the New Testament does the Trinitarian concept become a "tritheism" (three Gods) nor even two.[63] God is one, and that God is a single being is strongly declared in the Bible:

Nontrinitarianism
Main article: Nontrinitarianism
Nontrinitarianism (or antitrinitarianism) refers to Christian belief systems that reject the doctrine of the Trinity as found in the Nicene Creed as not having a scriptural origin. Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 360, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus, respectively.[136]

Judaism
See also: God in Judaism, Judaism's view of Jesus, and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]uf
Judaism traditionally maintains a tradition of monotheism to the exclusion of the possibility of a Trinity.[138] In Judaism, God is understood to be the absolute one, indivisible, and incomparable being who is the ultimate cause of all existence. The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical — it is even considered by some polytheistic.[150]

Islamic views
Main articles: Islamic view of the Trinity and Shirk (Islam)
Islam considers Jesus to be a prophet, but not divine,[138] and Allah to be absolutely indivisible (a concept known as tawhid).[139] Several verses of the Qur'an state that the doctrine of the Trinity is blasphemous.[140][141]

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.

— Qur'an, sura 112 (Al-Ikhlas), ayat 1–4[142]
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

View attachment 229780

what is your reference to what I have said?

1213 · May 29, 2018

BobRyan said:
details in the text show that it meant " I am the I AM - that spoke with Moses" as the explanation of how he knew what Abraham was thinking.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him

Bible also tells Jesus as falsely accused and judged. And, if Jesus said “I am”, it is not same as “I am I am”. Also, even Paul uses same saying and says “I am”, should we think he as claiming to be God?

1213 · May 29, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
"I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins" (John 8:24), also verse 58 with Exodus 3:14 shows exactly this, where Jesus means "I am Yahweh"

John 8:24 says: “I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.". You seem to have forgot the word “he” from that.

And then it continues with: “They said therefore to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.”. (John 8:25).

And now, if you truly want to know who Jesus is, I recommend to read what he says in the Bible.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 29, 2018

1213 said:
John 8:24 says: “I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.". You seem to have forgot the word “he” from that.

And then it continues with: “They said therefore to him, "Who are you?" Jesus said to them, "Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.”. (John 8:25).

And now, if you truly want to know who Jesus is, I recommend to read what he says in the Bible.

can you show me where there is "he" in the Greek text?

"εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι (I am), ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν"

TheBibleIsTruth · May 29, 2018

1213 said:
Bible also tells Jesus as falsely accused and judged. And, if Jesus said “I am”, it is not same as “I am I am”. Also, even Paul uses same saying and says “I am”, should we think he as claiming to be God?

take a look at #279

Eloy Craft · May 29, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
So you are not a believer in the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Trinity?

I believe the Word of God assumed a human body and soul at the moment of conception in The womb of the Virgin Mary. At that moment God became a Man named Jesus. I believe He is One in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Eternal Son of God the Father Light from Light True God from True God. He is One with the Holy Spirit and the Father distinct only to themselves. I believe God who said 'I am that I am' is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, I also believe that it was the work of God the Holy Spirit that manifested in the bush to Moses. The Spirit of God moving on the face of the waters. Preparing the people for the coming of the light and the coming of judgement that light brings. God said the light was good and divided the light from the darkness. The Holy Spirit who inspired the Prophets that culminated in John the Baptist preparing a straight way turning the hearts of fathers towards their children and children towards their fathers. The work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal the Son and the Son reveals the Father. By the power of the Holy Spirit the giver of Life Mary conceived the Son of God in her womb. That's how I believe God has been working throughout salvation history.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 29, 2018

Eloy Craft said:
I believe the Word of God assumed a human body and soul at the moment of conception in The womb of the Virgin Mary. At that moment God became a Man named Jesus. I believe He is One in Being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Eternal Son of God the Father Light from Light True God from True God. He is One with the Holy Spirit and the Father distinct only to themselves. I believe God who said 'I am that I am' is the Father Son and Holy Spirit, I also believe that it was the work of God the Holy Spirit that manifested in the bush to Moses. The Spirit of God moving on the face of the waters. The Holy Spirit who inspired the Prophets that culminated in John the Baptist preparing a straight way turning the hearts of fathers towards their children and children towards their fathers. The work of the Holy Spirit is to reveal the Son and the Son reveals the Father. By the power of the holy Spirit the giver of Life Mary conceived the Son of God in her womb. That's how I believe God has been working throughout salvation history.

So, the Angel (Messenger) of the Lord in the Old Testament, Who appeared to Moses, and is spoken of in the OT as the Coming One, Who is Jesus Christ, is actually the Holy Spirit? The Person Who appeared to Abraham in Genesis chapter 18, Whom Abraham saw with his own eyes, Who is called YHWH, and is distinct from God the Father, as in Genesis 19:24, is the Holy Spirit? Are you a Unitarian, or Oneness Pertecostal, or the like? If Jesus Christ is not YHWH, then He is no more than a created being, Who is slightly higher than the angels?

Anyway, till tomorrow. Good night from Old England

Eloy Craft · May 29, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
So, the Angel (Messenger) of the Lord in the Old Testament, Who appeared to Moses, and is spoken of in the OT as the Coming One, Who is Jesus Christ, is actually the Holy Spirit? The Person Who appeared to Abraham in Genesis chapter 18, Whom Abraham saw with his own eyes, Who is called YHWH, and is distinct from God the Father, as in Genesis 19:24, is the Holy Spirit? Are you a Unitarian, or Oneness Pertecostal, or the like? If Jesus Christ is not YHWH, then He is no more than a created being, Who is slightly higher than the angels?

Anyway, till tomorrow. Good night from Old England

I thought I threw in enough hints Gov. Cheers

LittleLambofJesus · May 29, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I mean it in the same sense it appears in the Creed:
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)

Perhaps some of the confusion is a result of translations and Bible versions
Look at the difference between the KJV and NASB.
One of them has Son and the other God. Will have to study on this:

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

John 1:18
KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'
1:18 T-R/B-M
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

NASB) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
1:18 Alex/H-W
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote * monogenhV qeos o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Look at Gen 22:2 when Abraham took Isaac to offer up, [even thou he had another son Ishmael].
Isaac of course is the one whom the promises would come thru.[Hebrews 11:17]

Genesis 22:2
And He said, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:
and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Now the NT veris

Matthew 17:5
Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud, overshadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of ME, the Beloved-One, in whom I delight,
be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

John 17:11
And not still I-AM in the world, and these in the world are,
and I near/toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Revel 12:5]

Daniel 7:13 P
Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold! With clouds of the heavens as son of a mortal/0606 'enash arriving He was,
and unto ancient of the days He reached, and before HIM they bring near Him

Reve 12:5
and she brought forth a male child, Who is about to be shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron. And caught away was her child unto God and His throne
and was caught-away the offspring of her near/toward/proV <4314> the GOD and His throne. [Daniel 7:13/John 17:1/Reve 2:18]

ewq1938 · May 29, 2018

Grip Docility said:
I don’t see that. They noted the Virgin Birth.

But argues against that the Father begat the Son in Mary. It is highly important that Jesus is the literal Son of the Father. He argues against this. Jesus then merely becomes an incarnation and is a symbolic Son rather than a literal begatted Son.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Perhaps some of the confusion is a result of translations and Bible versions
Look at the difference between the KJV and NASB.
One of them has Son and the other God. Will have to study on this:

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

John 1:18
KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.'
1:18 T-R/B-M
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote o monogenhV uios o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

NASB) No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
1:18 Alex/H-W
qeon oudeiV ewraken pwpote * monogenhV qeos o wn eiV ton kolpon tou patroV ekeinoV exhghsato

Look at Gen 22:2 when Abraham took Isaac to offer up, [even thou he had another son Ishmael].
Isaac of course is the one whom the promises would come thru.[Hebrews 11:17]

Genesis 22:2
And He said, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:
and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Now the NT veris

Matthew 17:5
Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud, overshadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of ME, the Beloved-One, in whom I delight,
be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

John 17:11
And not still I-AM in the world, and these in the world are,
and I near/toward/proV <4314> Thee am coming........[Revel 12:5]

Daniel 7:13 P
Perceiving I was in visions of the night and behold! With clouds of the heavens as son of a mortal/0606 'enash arriving He was,
and unto ancient of the days He reached, and before HIM they bring near Him

Reve 12:5
and she brought forth a male child, Who is about to be shepherding all the nations with a rod of iron. And caught away was her child unto God and His throne
and was caught-away the offspring of her near/toward/proV <4314> the GOD and His throne. [Daniel 7:13/John 17:1/Reve 2:18]

Whether you accept the reading "μονογενὴς θεὸς", which I believe to be the original the Apostle John wrote, or the changed text, "μονογενὴς υἱὸς", the meaning is the same in both with "μονογενὴς". One of the problems that is caused, is that some, like Strong's Concordance's dictionary, has wrongly said that this Greek adjective, "μονογενὴς", is a compound word, which is from "μόνος" and "γίνομαι", which has given rise to the error of "begetting" as being part of the root meaning. The correct root for "μονογενὴς", is "μόνος" and "γένος", which literally has the meaning, "of a single kind, unique". It should be noted, that in Hebrews 11:17, Isaac is said to be the "μονογενὴς" of Abraham, yet we know that Isaac was not the "only" child that Abraham gave birth (begot) to. Genesis 22:2, which is the reference in Hebrews 11:17, does not have "μονογενὴς", but instead the Greek "αγαπητον", the Septuagint Version, which means, "beloved". This is exactly the sense of "μονογενὴς" when applied to the Lord Jesus Christ, Who has a very unique relationship with the Father, like John 5:17, where Jesus refers to the Father as "Ὁ πατήρ μου" (My OWN Father), which enraged the Jews, "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His OWN Father, making himself equal with God."(18).

There is absolutely no idea of any "begetting" in the word "μονογενὴς", or its root.

TheBibleIsTruth · May 30, 2018

ewq1938 said:
But argues against that the Father begat the Son in Mary. It is highly important that Jesus is the literal Son of the Father. He argues against this. Jesus then merely becomes an incarnation and is a symbolic Son rather than a literal begatted Son.

Where in all that I have written, can you show, that I have ever denied that God the Father did "beget" the Lord Jesus Christ, in the womb of Mary, through the operation of God the Holy Spirit? If you care to read all of what I have been saying, you will soon discover that I, like the Holy Bible, deny that there is any teaching in Scripture, that within the Godhead, as Eternal God, that Jesus Christ was ever "generated" in any way by the Father or the Holy Spirit. this heresy can be traced to Philo of Alexandria, and the heretic Origen, who was from the same city. God is One Being, and eternally has existed in Three Persons, The Father, the Son (Word, Angel of the Lord, etc), and the Holy Spirit. The fact that God is a "Father", and a "Son", does NOT in any way mean that we understand this in the human sense. Apart form the time of Jesus Christ's time on earth, some 33 years, He was NEVER in any way "subordinate" to the Father, as the Eternal God. He is 100% COEQUAL, COESSENTIAL and COETERNAL, with the Father and Holy Spirit. In Paul's letter to the Philippians, he writes about Jesus Christ's eternal Deity. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (2:6). the Greek here is very important for Christology studies. Paul says that Jesus "ὑπάρχω", where this verb has the meaning, "subsisting, has always been", "ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ", in the form of God, better "in very nature God", which is how the NIV translation rightly renders the Greek. To understand what Paul here means about "robbery" (KJV), we have to look at the adjective, "ἴσα", (to be equal). What is important here, is that Paul uses the neuter plural "ἴσα", which is "on equal terms, with no advantage to either side". It was this "equality" with the Father, that Jesus "set-aside" for the time of His earthly Ministry. This can be seen from Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone". Where we read of Jesus "for a short time made lower than the angels", for the purpose "of the suffering of death". Also in John 17:5, where Jesus says, "And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed". Jesus here speaks of His "glory" that He has shared with the Father, from eternity past, which He set-aside for His time on earth. The Greek of this verse shows that this "glory" between the Father and Son, has always "coexisted", which also shows the "coeternity" and "coequality" of both Persons. One Person could NOT have at any time "generated/begot" the other.

Eloy Craft · May 30, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
So, the Angel (Messenger) of the Lord in the Old Testament, Who appeared to Moses, and is spoken of in the OT as the Coming One, Who is Jesus Christ, is actually the Holy Spirit? The Person Who appeared to Abraham in Genesis chapter 18, Whom Abraham saw with his own eyes, Who is called YHWH, and is distinct from God the Father, as in Genesis 19:24, is the Holy Spirit? Are you a Unitarian, or Oneness Pertecostal, or the like? If Jesus Christ is not YHWH, then He is no more than a created being, Who is slightly higher than the angels?

As I re-read my post I see how it can be mistaken for Modalism. Why do you think 'the coming one' is YHWH and the manifestation of God in the burning bush? I don't see a good reason to believe that OT theophanies are the Word in Person. I do see that God's revelation in the OT is focused on preparing His people for the coming one. The Exodus, The Law, Temple Worship and the Prophets, the entire history of salvation from Adam to John the Baptist are all directed towards that goal.

Erik Nelson · May 30, 2018

AvgJoe said:
Who is the Word?

(John 1:1-3, 14) 1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2) He was in the beginning with God. 3) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 14) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Who is this Word? We start to find out in the very next verse.

(John 1:15) John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

Then, down in verses 29 & 30, John reveals of whom he is speaking about in verse 15, the same being the Word in verses 1-3 & 14.

(John 1:29-30) 29)The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30)This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’

John bore witness of the Word (v 15). John said Jesus is the one of which he bore witness(vs 29-30). Jesus is the Word.

So,

(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God. 14. And (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is God. Jesus is God.

And in Revelation,

(Revelation 19:13) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Who is this Word of God?

Some of the attributes of the Word of God:

1) Rev. 19:12: His eyes were as flame of fire
2) Rev. 19:15: out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword
3) Rev. 19:16 : His name is KINGS OF KINDS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who eyes were as flame of fire?
Revelation 2:18 - Jesus, the Son of God, hath eyes like unto a flame of fire.

Who has a sharp sword that goeth out of His mouth?
Revelation 1:16 - Out of Jesus' mouth went a sharp, two-edged, sword.

Who's name is KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS?
Revelation 17:14 - The Lamb is the KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

Who is the Lamb?
John 1:29 - Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is The Word of God!

(Revelation 13:19) He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called (Jesus).

Question: "What is the hypostatic union?"

Answer: The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.

www.gotquestions.org/hypostatic-union.html

Philippians 2:6 is not saying that Jesus is created in the image of God. No, it is saying that He is God~~~> www.biblehub.com/philippians/2-6.htm & www.biblehub.com/interlinear/philippians/2-6.htm .

Never said He was.

Yes, we do know so, straight from Scripture. That's what Philippians 2:7 means when it says Jesus emptied Himself~~~> www.biblehub.com/philippians/2-7.htm .

Well, how about one thing at a time...

You start with Scripture that reads, "In the beginning was the Word..."

You add your own mortal "traditions of men"...

And wind up saying, "In the beginning was [Jesus]…"

Once again, the physical human form was only created, in the image of God the Father, on the 6th Biblical Day...

there is no way Jesus the human existed prior to Creation... not physically...

But, please don't get me wrong, God's divine plan, to bring about Jesus as the Christ Messiah, was in fact pre-existing, prior to Creation...

Prior to Creation, Jesus the human "existed" as a concept, along with a long-term divine plan to bring him about, according to God's will. But the physical flesh and blood, while foreordained by God before the foundation of earth, was only Immaculately Conceived, in actual physical fact, around March of 1 BC or so.

Erik Nelson · May 30, 2018

TheBibleIsTruth said:
Where in all that I have written, can you show, that I have ever denied that God the Father did "beget" the Lord Jesus Christ, in the womb of Mary, through the operation of God the Holy Spirit? If you care to read all of what I have been saying, you will soon discover that I, like the Holy Bible, deny that there is any teaching in Scripture, that within the Godhead, as Eternal God, that Jesus Christ was ever "generated" in any way by the Father or the Holy Spirit. this heresy can be traced to Philo of Alexandria, and the heretic Origen, who was from the same city. God is One Being, and eternally has existed in Three Persons, The Father, the Son (Word, Angel of the Lord, etc), and the Holy Spirit. The fact that God is a "Father", and a "Son", does NOT in any way mean that we understand this in the human sense. Apart form the time of Jesus Christ's time on earth, some 33 years, He was NEVER in any way "subordinate" to the Father, as the Eternal God. He is 100% COEQUAL, COESSENTIAL and COETERNAL, with the Father and Holy Spirit. In Paul's letter to the Philippians, he writes about Jesus Christ's eternal Deity. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (2:6). the Greek here is very important for Christology studies. Paul says that Jesus "ὑπάρχω", where this verb has the meaning, "subsisting, has always been", "ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ", in the form of God, better "in very nature God", which is how the NIV translation rightly renders the Greek. To understand what Paul here means about "robbery" (KJV), we have to look at the adjective, "ἴσα", (to be equal). What is important here, is that Paul uses the neuter plural "ἴσα", which is "on equal terms, with no advantage to either side". It was this "equality" with the Father, that Jesus "set-aside" for the time of His earthly Ministry. This can be seen from Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone". Where we read of Jesus "for a short time made lower than the angels", for the purpose "of the suffering of death". Also in John 17:5, where Jesus says, "And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed". Jesus here speaks of His "glory" that He has shared with the Father, from eternity past, which He set-aside for His time on earth. The Greek of this verse shows that this "glory" between the Father and Son, has always "coexisted", which also shows the "coeternity" and "coequality" of both Persons. One Person could NOT have at any time "generated/begot" the other.

Wasn't it the Word which "begat" Jesus in the womb of Mary? The Word "tabernacled" within Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Prophesy. It's a "communication link" via which God informs humans with God's divine messages.

All the Prophets received the Holy Spirit. Essentially only Jesus also received the Word, which Immaculately Conceived him in Mary's womb (around March of 1 BC).

Erik Nelson · May 30, 2018

Randy777 said:
I thought I stated Jesus was with God in the beginning. 1john calls Jesus the word of life.

Yes, 1 John 1 states that "the Word of life... was made manifest", (clearly) in the person of Jesus Christ.

The Word manifested by incarnation, indwelling, inhabiting, "tabernacling" within, Jesus the human.

The whole Godhead incarnated into Jesus the man. Hence he was Immaculately Conceived (by the Word), Prophesied (by the Holy Spirit), and even directly uttered the Divine Name "I AM" on numerous occasions (implying that God the Father was "live on the line" speaking through him directly).

Randy777 · May 30, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Yes, 1 John 1 states that "the Word of life... was made manifest", (clearly) in the person of Jesus Christ.

The Word manifested by incarnation, indwelling, inhabiting, "tabernacling" within, Jesus the human.

The whole Godhead incarnated into Jesus the man. Hence he was Immaculately Conceived (by the Word), Prophesied (by the Holy Spirit), and even directly uttered the Divine Name "I AM" on numerous occasions (implying that God the Father was "live on the line" speaking through him directly).

A "body" was prepared for Him. Jesus is a being not a word or people or radiance and such a being as Jesus would make such a statement" before Abraham was I Am" in reply to "you are not yet 50 years old and you know Abraham."
I believe Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit so the Son born was/is called the Son of the Most High God. I believe Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.

Before Abraham was, I am

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Disciple of Jesus

Disciple of Jesus

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Myth only points, Truth happened!

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Myth only points, Truth happened!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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I love you three.

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Myth only points, Truth happened!

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