The Torah is not abrogated

Open Heart

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How is one to keep the ceremonial laws if there is no longer any sacrifice needed?

How do we keep civil laws if we are not living in the Israel of 2,000 years ago?

IOW, I'm not saying you shouldn't live your conviction. God forbid! I do wonder though, HOW you could do this??

Just curious.
Having a Seder Meal on Passover would be an example of keeping a ceremonial law, sans the sacrifice (we still keep a lamb shank bone on ur plates to remind us of the necessity of the sacrifice. Also, should the temple be rebuilt, sacrifices would resume.

Giving 10% of my income to the poor and to support my religious leaders is an example of a civil law that I keep. In other regards, I see the civil laws as creating the "ideal" society, an ideal that I hope my own will strive for. So just as no one went hungry in Israel because of its laws governing redistribution of wealth, so someday do I hope my own country will be the same in its own non-identical way.
 
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Open Heart

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It means completed.
Fulfilled does NOT mean completed in a way that it subsequently no longer has to be done. If I make the best chicken dinner ever, perfect with all the fixings, I'll still have to make dinner tomorrow night. When we say that Yeshua fulfilled the Law, we mean that he kept it perfectly, and taught it in a way that made it possible for his followers to keep (fulfilling the law was actually a Second Temple expression meaning this).

I know you are trying to be very careful what words you choose, because you know that if you preach that the Torah is now done away with you will be in violation of the SOP. But the thing is, for all your care, everyone here can read between the lines.
 
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Open Heart

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Yes. That is the true guts of the effort. What does following Torah look like in the New Covenant.

But be aware of the fact that we believe the Torah was given ONLY to Israel and those who willingly attach themselves to Israel. To what degree that all is applicable to Gentile Christians is still a topic in flux.

The direction Rabbis Juster and Rudolph take is that many of the commands are universal moral precepts and binding on all, while others can be followed on a voluntary basis by gentiles. Tikkun as an organization recognizes some Gentiles have a "Ruth calling;" [your people are my people and your God my God] and both rabbis confirmed I and my wife are walking in that call.
THIS ^^^^^

Maybe I should just relax and let Dave do the talking, cuz he's just saying things better than I ever do!!!! Thanks Dave.
 
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Open Heart

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I am glad OH opened up this thread, for those of us who need to step forward in unity with His Word. It is exposing those who oppose His Word. It is even better because we who observe can unite.
Thank you sister. We stand together.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Fulfilled does NOT mean completed in a way that it subsequently no longer has to be done. If I make the best chicken dinner ever, perfect with all the fixings, I'll still have to make dinner tomorrow night. When we say that Yeshua fulfilled the Law, we mean that he kept it perfectly, and taught it in a way that made it possible for his followers to keep (fulfilling the law was actually a Second Temple expression meaning this).

I know you are trying to be very careful what words you choose, because you know that if you preach that the Torah is now done away with you will be in violation of the SOP. But the thing is, for all your care, everyone here can read between the lines.
I also have learned that fulfill means to "complete". But NOT in the sense that it does not have to be done anymore -- as you've stated above. It means to make it more complete, more perfect, or to fulfill as has been prophesied

FULFIL

fool-fil' (male; pleroo, teleo, with other words):

"Fulfill" is used

(1) in a sense more or less obsolete, "to fill up," complete (Genesis 29:21,28; Exodus 23:26; Job 36:17, the Revised Version (British and American) "full," margin "filled up"; Matthew 3:15, "to fulfill all righteousness"; Philippians 2:2, "Fulfil ye my joy," the American Standard Revised Version "make full"; compare 2 Corinthians 10:6);

(2) in the sense of "to accomplish," "to carry into effect," as to fulfill the word of Yahweh (1 Kings 2:27; 8:15,24; 2 Chronicles 36:21, etc.); in the New Testament very frequently used of the fulfillment of prophetic Scripture (Matthew 1:22; 2:15, etc.). Love is declared to be "the fulfillment (pleroma, "fullness") of the law" (Romans 13:10). For "fulfill" the Revised Version (British and American) has "do" (Revelation 17:17); for "fulfilled" has "performed" (2 Samuel 14:22), "accomplished" (Ezra 1:1; Matthew 5:18; 24:34; Luke 21:32; John 19:28), with numerous other changes.

When I discuss works with Christians they tell me that fulfill means that Jesus did it and we don't have to do anything anymore....a clear misunderstanding of the word. I do wish we all spoke the same language...
 
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AbbaLove

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I also have learned that fulfill means to "complete". But NOT in the sense that it does not have to be done anymore -- as you've stated above. It means to make it more complete, more perfect, or to fulfill as has been prophesied
Yes, there isn't only one way to interpret One Law even within Messianic Judaism.
 
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Dave-W

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THIS ^^^^^

Maybe I should just relax and let Dave do the talking, cuz he's just saying things better than I ever do!!!! Thanks Dave.
LOL!!! You are welcome.
 
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Dave-W

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Could you please expound on this?
thanks.
P.S. I mean, what is ONE LAW?
Numbers 15:16
There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.​

It is the idea (very popular in some parts of MJ) that full Torah observance is required for ALL New Covenant believers. The idea is based on Num 15.16 and other similar scriptures.

For many years First Fruits of Zion was a major proponent of One Law. But about 6 or 7 years ago they changed to a more "Torah is for the Jews" position. (i.e. more in keeping with Acts 15) They lost a lot of their support and customers for about a year, but eventually came back with more support and sales.
 
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Open Heart

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Could you please expound on this?
thanks.
P.S. I mean, what is ONE LAW?
It comes from the verse "You are to have one law for the Ger and the native-born. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 24:22
Ger is the Hebrew word that means "convert" and "resident alien." These were foreigners that moved permanently to the Promised land and were adopted into the Children of Israel, and took on full 613 commandments.

The emphasis in the One Law movement is twofold:
1. There is no Jew or Greek anymore, no distinctions are made any longer
2. Therefore the Law is obligatory for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles. Gentiles must be circumcised, eat kosher, and keep the sabbath just as much as Jews.
One Law for everyone.
 
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GodsGrace101

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It comes from the verse "You are to have one law for the Ger and the native-born. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 24:22
Ger is the Hebrew word that means "convert" and "resident alien." These were foreigners that moved permanently to the Promised land and were adopted into the Children of Israel, and took on full 613 commandments.

The emphasis in the One Law movement is twofold:
1. There is no Jew or Greek anymore, no distinctions are made any longer
2. Therefore the Law is obligatory for BOTH Jews AND Gentiles. Gentiles must be circumcised, eat kosher, and keep the sabbath just as much as Jews.
One Law for everyone.
Interesting.
I do know that those who wanted to live as the Jews and came from outside the Promised Land DID have to be circumcised.

The Abrahamic Covenant sign was circumcision.
It does seem from the N.T. and N.C. that it was decided upon that one did not have to become a Jew first and then a Christian.

There is however, only ONE Body of Christ.
Much to consider --- I'm not able to discuss this intelligently.
 
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tampasteve

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Numbers 15:16
There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.​

It is the idea (very popular in some parts of MJ) that full Torah observance is required for ALL New Covenant believers. The idea is based on Num 15.16 and other similar scriptures.

For many years First Fruits of Zion was a major proponent of One Law. But about 6 or 7 years ago they changed to a more "Torah is for the Jews" position. (i.e. more in keeping with Acts 15) They lost a lot of their support and customers for about a year, but eventually came back with more support and sales.
FFOZ is a great resource now, I own quite a few of their books. One can still find grumblings on other MJ forums lamenting their moving away from One Law. Personally I find their information and literature much more powerful and accurate now than their old information. One Law has a difficult time reconciling the NT with the Jewish scriptures and actual history. Was it their involvement with Beth Immanuel that changed their positions? It seem about the same time frame.
 
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tampasteve

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Interesting.
I do know that those who wanted to live as the Jews and came from outside the Promised Land DID have to be circumcised.
They still would, if they were Jewish by birth or conversion and wanted to follow the Torah.
The Abrahamic Covenant sign was circumcision.
It does seem from the N.T. and N.C. that it was decided upon that one did not have to become a Jew first and then a Christian.
Yep, this is pretty clear from scripture. This is why most MJ take the position that if one is Jew or Gentile one should follow the scriptures on how to live. Taken in context of history we can see that gentiles were not required to live as Jews or follow the Law but are encouraged to take on what we wish that draws us closer to God. The Didache, while not scripture, is about as old as we can get and gives a very good overview on what this looks like for Gentile followers of Christ.
There is however, only ONE Body of Christ.
Amen!
 
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GodsGrace101

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They still would, if they were Jewish by birth or conversion and wanted to follow the Torah.

Yep, this is pretty clear from scripture. This is why most MJ take the position that if one is Jew or Gentile one should follow the scriptures on how to live. Taken in context of history we can see that gentiles were not required to live as Jews or follow the Law but are encouraged to take on what we wish that draws us closer to God. The Didache, while not scripture, is about as old as we can get and gives a very good overview on what this looks like for Gentile followers of Christ.

Amen!
I'm very familiar with the Didache (approx. 90 - 120 AD),
written by those who knew the Apostles and possibly by some apostles.

I've always thought that it would be a good idea for all Christians to be familiar with this document.
 
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Dave-W

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Was it their involvement with Beth Immanuel that changed their positions? It seem about the same time frame.
Maybe. I know that Dan Juster (Tikkun) had been trying to convince them to move away from One Law for a number of years; so it was probably a combination of several different influences.
 
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Dave-W

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I'm very familiar with the Didache (approx. 90 - 120 AD),
written by those who knew the Apostles and possibly by some apostles.

I've always thought that it would be a good idea for all Christians to be familiar with this document.
First Fruits of Zion considers it a written halacha for gentile believers in the late first century.
 
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tampasteve

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I'm very familiar with the Didache (approx. 90 - 120 AD),
written by those who knew the Apostles and possibly by some apostles.

I've always thought that it would be a good idea for all Christians to be familiar with this document.
I totally agree, it is a eye opening document that helps one live the faith. Read from a MJ perspective it takes on a different light, IMO.
 
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OSAS 101

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By One Man.

That does not eliminate the need of others to walk in obedience.

Acts 21:24
take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.
Uh uh uh, out of context.
You need to do your homework.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23;

19 Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the Law I became like one under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law), to win those under the Law.…21 To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that by all possible means I might save some of them.…23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.…
 
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tampasteve

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Uh uh uh, out of context.
You need to do your homework.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23;

19 Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the Law I became like one under the Law (though I myself am not under the Law), to win those under the Law.…21 To those without the Law I became like one without the Law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the Law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men, so that by all possible means I might save some of them.…23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share in its blessings.…

Just as a reminder, this is the Messianic Judaism forum, so non-members are not allowed to debate.

But, as a reference most MJ interpret that passage in Corinthians to be Paul speaking about how he speaks, debates, etc. In other words, he is not saying that he is not under the Law, but rather his rhetorical and argumentative evangelistic strategy is changed depending on the audience. This perspective actually works very well in light of other passages showing Paul worshiping and living as if under the Law, as he was.

Here is a very good article on this perspective:
Did Paul Encourage Deception?
 
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