confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ?

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Luthrans, Anglicans, and Methodists all believe in the real presence...

Very different from them claiming to 'have the powers to confect the body,blood,soul and divinity" of God the Son each week.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
BobRyan said:
I am not complaining about the idea of church discipline.. I am pointing to the detail that they reference this as the "powers of the priest" and pointing to one detail which is that both Catholics and Protestants agree.. that the Protestants claim no such "powers" for our elders, deacons, pastors etc when it comes to "confecting the body,soul,blood and divinity" of God the Son each week.

Yes, but look...

A great many Protestants believe that the priest or minister does--by officiating at the Lord's SUpper--cause a supernatural event to happen.

Do they claim to have "powers" to "confect the body blood soul and divinity" of the Son of God?

"powers" that they would not lose even if in apostasy??

Moreover, it is not something that a layperson can do.

1. Then no person ever had such "powers"

It is not the power to "confect blah blah blah," but it is something similar.

And you also argue that it is a power that no person has??

That is the RCC way of describing what they believe about their own priests.

Indeed it is. And my point is that both Catholics and Protestants agree that you don't find Protestants claiming "the powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity" of God the Son.

As I said in my previous post, many Protestants believe that their priests/ministers have a similar power,

That is where an actual "quote" would be helpful - regarding "power" to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son each weak.

but it appears that you want to say that only they believe their clergy have a spiritual power of some sort. If that is the case, you are mistaken.

I am more than happy to have someone post from their official denomination documents a claim to - "powers" that they claim for their pastors such that those pastors "retain their powers" even if the organization defrocks them and declares them to be apostate.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Christ's sacrifice was love- so therefore we can offer an equivalent in praise and love.

It is difficult to conceive that you think Christ was offering up praises on the cross or that you would claim to 'offer an equivalent' in your worship service - to what Christ offered on the Cross.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Laymen are non priests/ bishops. The apostles we're the first bishops, which is confirmed by both secular and church accounts...

There are no priests...

1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

No apostle claimed to be a priest.
No Bible write claimed to be a priest
No Deacon,Elder etc - claimed to be a priest in the NT.

So then protestants have no priests with "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" each week.

What then is the "change of priesthood" from the Levitical OT model to today?

Heb 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

"One mediator between God and man" 1 Timothy 2

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well the quotes in the OP reference apostasy and the response to it as being - excommunication.

You get excommunicated for apostasy, but that doesn't mean that every excommunication is about apostasy. In fact, very few are.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Do they claim to have "powers" to "confect the body blood soul and divinity" of the Son of God?
I have answered this. What about the answer are you uncertain about?


That is where an actual "quote" would be helpful - regarding "power" to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son each weak.
I have also explained this. What about that answer is confusing you? You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers either believe exactly as Catholic priests do (by using the RCC description of confecting, etc.) or, if that is not the case, that they have no "power." However, they and their churches do believe that they have a power which is similar but not the same...and you want to insist that it is only the Catholic priests who have any such power.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The only earthly priests that remain in that two-priesthoods of Hebrews are those with "worthless sacrifices".

Hebrews 10
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

That is a contrast between the priesthood that was on earth at the time of the writing of Hebrews - and the one in Heaven -- the only two kinds that existed.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You get excommunicated for apostasy, but that doesn't mean that every excommunication is about apostasy. .

Which is not something I ever stated. I simply point to the case in the OP which explicitly says it was for apostasy.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers believe exactly as Catholic priests do

I think you are having that "Laurel" - "Yanni" problem in almost every post.

I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.

How in the world that sounds to you like "You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers believe exactly as Catholic priests do" -- is astounding to the reader.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think you are having that "Laurel" - "Yanni" problem in almost every post.

I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors

That statement is false.

"Protestants" do not agree that their pastors lack the power to consecrate the elements at Holy Communion by which they assume the real presence of Our Lord. Period.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.

How in the world that sounds to you like "You keep trying to get someone to say that Protestant priests or ministers believe exactly as Catholic priests do" -- is astounding to the reader.

That statement is false.
.

I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.

Since you claim that is false... provide something other than creative writing to show that they in fact do teach it --- I am a bit surprised to see you go down that road.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I keep saying that BOTH Catholics and Protestants AGREE that Protestants are not claiming "POWERS" for their pastors -- "powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" -- "powers" that supposedly are retained by that pastor even after he goes into apostasy and is "excommunicated"/defrocked.

Since you claim that is false... provide something other than creative writing to show that they in fact do teach it --- I am a bit surprised to see you go down that road.

I have explained the matter to you repeatedly and invited questions about whatever might not have sunk in...and you simply restate the same mistaken proposition and in almost the exact same words.

So in the absence of any movement there, nothing can be gained by going round that mulberry bush one more time.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: ☦Marius☦
Upvote 0

☦Marius☦

Murican
Supporter
Jun 9, 2017
2,300
2,102
27
North Carolina (Charlotte)
✟268,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
There are no priests...

1 Cor 12
28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

No apostle claimed to be a priest.
No Bible write claimed to be a priest
No Deacon,Elder etc - claimed to be a priest in the NT.

So then protestants have no priests with "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" each week.

What then is the "change of priesthood" from the Levitical OT model to today?

Heb 7
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

"One mediator between God and man" 1 Timothy 2

Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry

Presbyter and bishop were originally the same position. You forget that before the Gospel was written and widespread, the church was already forming structure. Many early writers talk about bishops, and their authority. When the church got too large to have authoritative bishops with apostolic succession at every parish, the bishop order was split between presbyter/priest(English), and bishop. It's not that complicated.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Presbyter and bishop were originally the same position. You forget that before the Gospel was written and widespread, the church was already forming structure. Many early writers talk about bishops, and their authority.

I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".

hiereus -

STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7:(Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21
 
Upvote 0

☦Marius☦

Murican
Supporter
Jun 9, 2017
2,300
2,102
27
North Carolina (Charlotte)
✟268,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".

hiereus -


STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7:(Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21


I didn't say it was the same word, I said it was an equivalent. In other words a synonym
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
So in the absence of any movement there, nothing can be gained by going round that mulberry bush one more time.

Albion -- I have explained the matter to you repeatedly and invited questions about whatever might not have sunk in...others have also tried to explain to you the clear statements in the OP -- and you simply restate the same mistaken proposition and in almost the exact same words.

When I state repeatedly "both Catholics and Protestants agree" that Protestants have claim to "powers" to "confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son" you innexplicably respond with "you are trying to get us non-Catholics to claim we have powers to confect the body, blood, soul and divinity of God the Son".

I appeal to reason.. you appeal to repeated flaws in what you imagine my position to be.

It does not get any easier than I have made it for you.

You have free will however and can do as you please.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,503
Georgia
✟899,782.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Presbyter and bishop were originally the same position. You forget that before the Gospel was written and widespread, the church was already forming structure. Many early writers talk about bishops, and their authority.

I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".

hiereus -

STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7:(Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21


I didn't say it was the same word, .

And "yet" you would "like" to make it a "synonym"??? -- "anyway"?

Interesting that every single time the NT term is unambiguously "priest" it is hiereus
 
Upvote 0

☦Marius☦

Murican
Supporter
Jun 9, 2017
2,300
2,102
27
North Carolina (Charlotte)
✟268,123.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I have shown a number of examples in Hebrews 7 and 10 where the term "priest" is used and it is not "Presbyter".

hiereus -

STRONGS NT 2409: ἱερεύς
ἱερεύς, ἱερέως, ὁ (ἱερός) (from Homer down), Hebrew כֹּהֵן, a priest; one who offers sacrifices and in general is busied with sacred rites;
a. properly, of the priests of the Gentiles, Acts 14:13; of the priests of the Jews, Matthew 8:4; Matthew 12:4; Mark 1:44; (Mark 2:26); Luke 1:5; Luke 5:14; John 1:19; Heb. 7:(Hebrews 7:14 L T Tr WH), Hebrews 7:20 (Hebrews 7:21); Hebrews 8:4, etc.; of the high priest, Acts 5:24 R G (Exodus 35:18; 1 Kings 1:8; 1 Macc. 15:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 12, 1); and in the same sense Christ is called ἱερεύς in Hebrews 5:6 (from Psalm 109:4 (Ps. 110:4); Hebrews 7:17; also ἱερεύς μέγας, Hebrews 10:21




And "yet" you would "like" to make it a "synonym"??? -- "anyway"?

Interesting that every single time the NT term is unambiguously "priest" it is hiereus

If the duties of the presbyter and priest are the same, and later down the line the words came to mean the same thing, then what difference does it make?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Thomas Schular

Active Member
May 30, 2018
179
44
40
United States
✟8,384.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Quote from CCC: 1374
Quote:
The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.

==================

“powers” of the RC Priest retained after excommunication


The following discussion is a quote from:
Catholic Digest – Jan 1995, pg 126

Q: Our former priest has been excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church and h as opened his own Church, which he calls “Christ Catholic Mission”. He now has some kind of connection with what he calls the “Catholic Church of God and Christ” with headquarters in Missouri. More and more people are attending his church. Some are former Catholics, but those I asked did not know whether this priest still had the power of consecrating the bread and wine for Communion. Does he? M.M

A.Yes. But he commits a grave sin of disobedience if he is excommunicated… The priest’s Consecration can be valid, that is, there can be the real change of bread and wine INTO the body and blood of Christ, but it is illicit because of his excommunication and brings him no actual graces.

You sometimes hear that the reason the Church recognizes the validity of an excommunicated priest’s Mass, and his continuing power to forgive sin, is the salvation of the dying in cases of necessity. But the deeper reason is the mark of the Holy Orders, along with Baptism and Confirmation, puts on the soul.

Of course “Mark on the soul” is just a figure of speech to indicate the difference between the baptized and the nonbaptized , the confirmed and the nonconfirmed, the ordained and the nonordained. Once the status of a soul is established by any of the three sacraments, it cannot be changed by any human power so as to be like it was before the reception of these sacraments.


The apostate
priest does not lose the power to confect the Eucharist or forgive sins through the sacrament of Penance. He does, by his apostasy, lose the power to do these things licitly, without sin.

========== The following is a quote of John Paul II ===========
The priest offers the holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering "in the name of' or "in place of" Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with "the eternal High Priest"[42] who is the author and principal subject of this sacrifice of His, a sacrifice in which, in truth, nobody can take His place. Only He -- only Christ -- was able and is always able to be the true and effective "expiation for our sins and . . . for the sins of the whole world."[43] Only His sacrifice -- and no one else's -- was able and is able to have a "propitiatory power" before God, the Trinity, and the transcendent holiness. Awareness of this reality throws a certain light on the character and significance of the priest celebrant who, by confecting the holy Sacrifice and acting "in persona Christi," is sacramentally (and ineffably) brought into that most profound sacredness, and made part of it, spiritually linking with it in turn all those participating in the eucharistic assembly.


CATHOLIC LIBRARY: Dominicae Cenae (1980)

Dominicae Cenae

On the Mystery and Worship of the Eucharist
His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Promulgated on February 24, 1980

To All the Bishops of the Church.


========================

What say you?

(updated to add underline and highlight for parts that some folks are missing)

About what? If you object to something and want an argument/discussion, you need to state what you object to... not simply post material.
 
Upvote 0