What is lukewarm?

PaulCyp1

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What would you prefer? A good friend who is always there for you? A stranger who doesn't even know you? Or someone who claims to be your friend, ignores you a lot of the time, seldom comes to see you, seldom talks to you?
 
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claninja

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Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".

Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.

Laodicea received water from 2 sources. From the hot springs to north (heirapolis) and cold water from the south (colossae)

Hot water has a purpose: soothing and healing. Cold water has a purpose: it is refreshing.

However, by the time these water sources reached laodicea, they were luke warm. The Luke warm water served no purpose.

Christ is not saying Hot = Christian and cold = unbeliever
Or ‘I’d rather you be an unbeliever than a Luke warm Christian’.

Christ is saying the church in laodicea was like their water, Luke warm. Christ wanted them to be either hot or cold.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:15-16 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 3:15-16 - English Standard Version
 
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dms1972

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I really stuggled with this verse for years, in my teens particularly, I don't recall hearing much explanation about it if it came up in sermons. For years I wondered was I lukewarm, hot or cold - which would be better, but of course then thought how could a cold/unbelieving heart be pleasing to God?

It also seems to be directed to the person with pastoral responsibility for this congregation.

"Unto the angel of the church (or, congregation) of the Laodiceans.—Better, in Laodicea. By the angel we understand the presiding pastor. There is some ground for identifying him with Archippus. It is too much to dismiss this as a baseless supposition. (See Note in Trench.) It is a well-supported view which understands the passage (Colossians 4:17) to mean that Archippus was a minister or office-bearer in the Church at Laodicea."

Revelation 3 Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
 
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Vicomte13

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Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian?

You have interpreted "cold" as meaning unbelief. I interpret that quite differently. I would describe myself as ice cold for God.

I find that which is "hot" to mean passionate, emotional. "Cold" to be firmly fact based and logical.
I find emotional gushing in religion to be disturbing. I recognize that that is the way that person feels about, and in the presence of God, and that he needs to express himself that way, so I don't say it's wrong. That's being "hot" for God.

But as for me, I don't find my violent passions to be uplifting. Rather, I feel closest to God alone in the winter in the dark, sitting in the white on the hill under the snow-bent pines, above my frozen lake, with the stars and the Milky Way silently turning above, and the Northern Lights dancing their cold and beautiful dance.

In the cold of space, and the cold of nature, I see the precision and intricacy of God's mind, the pristine logic.

A Roman pagan, Lucretius Varus, wrote in 76 BC "for true piety does not consist of sprinkling blood on altars with veiled head, but in contemplating the universe with a tranquil mind". I agree with him.

THAT is being cold for God - ice cold. And that is me. I know God well, and I see him in nature, which is the most direct expression of His nature we can see and touch.

There's nothing unbelieving about any of that. It's a belief as cold as a mile deep glacier of blue polar ice: pure, clean, hard and ice cold - with the precision of a diamond, full of respect for the deep precision of it all, the keen sharpness of the kind of God, on display.

This does not move me to speak in tongues or to writhe or to call out "Praise Jesus! Amen!" or do any of those things that people hot with passion do under the emprise of religion. Those things mildly repel me. That doesn't mean that I think they are WRONG, but they simply do not sit well with my personality. The God of the Universe is also the God of the autistic, and the autistic do not like all of that flowing passion - it is distressing. But the surety of the cold, hard, order of things, the harmony of the spheres and the perfection of the Great Music of the heavens - this inspires awe and the deepest reverence, all the way down to absolute zero.

That is what being cold for God is. And God is just as pleased with it as he is with writhing and speaking in tongues. I could never do the later - it repulses me. And not many would spend very long doing what I prefer - they would find it lonely, and bitter cold, and after watching for a few minutes, they would become bored.

Both the hot way and the cold way are acceptable to God: he said so. Cold does not mean unbelieving. It means severe, logical, austere.
 
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brinny

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You have interpreted "cold" as meaning unbelief. I interpret that quite differently. I would describe myself as ice cold for God.

I find that which is "hot" to mean passionate, emotional. "Cold" to be firmly fact based and logical.
I find emotional gushing in religion to be disturbing. I recognize that that is the way that person feels about, and in the presence of God, and that he needs to express himself that way, so I don't say it's wrong. That's being "hot" for God.

But as for me, I don't find my violent passions to be uplifting. Rather, I feel closest to God alone in the winter in the dark, sitting in the white on the hill under the snow-bent pines, above my frozen lake, with the stars and the Milky Way silently turning above, and the Northern Lights dancing their cold and beautiful dance.

In the cold of space, and the cold of nature, I see the precision and intricacy of God's mind, the pristine logic.

A Roman pagan, Lucretius Varus, wrote in 76 BC "for true piety does not consist of sprinkling blood on altars with veiled head, but in contemplating the universe with a tranquil mind". I agree with him.

THAT is being cold for God - ice cold. And that is me. I know God well, and I see him in nature, which is the most direct expression of His nature we can see and touch.

There's nothing unbelieving about any of that. It's a belief as cold as a mile deep glacier of blue polar ice: pure, clean, hard and ice cold - with the precision of a diamond, full of respect for the deep precision of it all, the keen sharpness of the kind of God, on display.

This does not move me to speak in tongues or to writhe or to call out "Praise Jesus! Amen!" or do any of those things that people hot with passion do under the emprise of religion. Those things mildly repel me. That doesn't mean that I think they are WRONG, but they simply do not sit well with my personality. The God of the Universe is also the God of the autistic, and the autistic do not like all of that flowing passion - it is distressing. But the surety of the cold, hard, order of things, the harmony of the spheres and the perfection of the Great Music of the heavens - this inspires awe and the deepest reverence, all the way down to absolute zero.

That is what being cold for God is. And God is just as pleased with it as he is with writhing and speaking in tongues. I could never do the later - it repulses me. And not many would spend very long doing what I prefer - they would find it lonely, and bitter cold, and after watching for a few minutes, they would become bored.

Both the hot way and the cold way are acceptable to God: he said so. Cold does not mean unbelieving. It means severe, logical, austere.

Hi Vic :wave:

What about "lukewarm"?
 
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Vicomte13

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Hi Vic :wave:

What about "lukewarm"?

Lukewarm was me as a younger man.
Looks up at the heavens at night: "Hi God, you're awesome."
Looks over at the hottie on the next stool: "Lord, make me chaste...but not yet."
That's lukewarm.
 
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brinny

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Lukewarm was me as a younger man.
Looks up at the heavens at night: "Hi God, you're awesome."
Looks over at the hottie on the next stool: "Lord, make me chaste...but not yet."
That's lukewarm.

I would disagree, Vic.

Lukewarm is not being interested in God at all, even seeing all His greatness and the wonders of His creation, etc.

Sorta' like "meh" *yawn*
 
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Vicomte13

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I would disagree, Vic.

Lukewarm is not being interested in God at all, even seeing all His greatness and the wonders of His creation, etc.

Sorta' like "meh" *yawn*

Fair enough. An atheist doesn't believe in God. An agnostic doesn't know whether or not there is a God. An "apathist" may or may not believe in God, but really doesn't care either way.

Atheist: I know there is no God.
Agnostic: I don't know whether or not there is a God.
Agnostic Apathist: I don't know, and I don't care.
Theist: I believe in God.
Apathistic Theist: I believe there is a God, but I don't care much about all that.

I think you're saying that to be lukewarm is to be an "apathist".
 
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Thea3

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Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".

Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.

Hi DW's,
It's not about being on fire for God! The struggling Christian is not lukewarm. The lukewarm church is benefiting no one; it is there in name only.
Faith is often simply put, but the truth is, we are asked to love the Lord our God with all our soul, strength, and mind. Luke 10:27
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soil and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5
Our 'everything' may look quiet, but it can still be deep and connected delivering more than just 'our' growth, albeit timely. Also the Church must not be religious without living doctrine. If we attend untouched in spirit, the Church may as well be dead!
Nothing wrong in questioning and discussing, but walking in Christ requires a commitment that delivers strength, trust but requires something of us. If you had a fantastic Mum or Dad, who you trust, there would be many times you would have to bow to their wisdom and exercise faith. What's invested in us is passed on. That chasm unbelief, is chaos. Only you won't see it until getting out if it is near impossible. Strengthen the good! Lay the foundation. Have I made any sense at all?
 
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claninja

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"Cold" means a heart condition, just like "lukewarm" is.

"Cold hearts" are not embraced by God.

Where in the Bible, anywhere does it say that a "cold" heart is a GOOD thing?

"hot" is a passion FOR God, as in David's heart towards God.

"Cold" is an aversion to God. As in Atheist.


"He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." ~Pr 29:1

Brinny, it’s important to understand the audience and historical context, and what the scripture actually says.

The audience is the church in laodicea.

Loadicea receieved water from 2 sources, hot springs from the north and cold water from the south. However, by the time each water source reached laodicea the hot was no longer hot, but Luke warm. The cold was no longer cold, but Luke warm.

Hot springs serve a purpose. Ice cold water serves a purpose. But Luke warm water serves no purpose.

Jesus was comparing THE WORKS of the church at laodicea to Luke warm water. Their works were useless. Jesus wanted them to be serving a purpose. He wanted them to be either hot or cold, as hold or cold water serves a purpose.

15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:15-16 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 3:15-16 - English Standard Version
 
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dms1972

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Now I am seeing pages of posts (several by the same poster) still not understanding what its about, not aware they don't understand it, still perpetuating misunderstanding.

Now fair enough it would not be obvious to most of us, but people in Laodocea would have understood what was being refered to when they read this. ##

Which is why we need christians who have studied more than the Bible in order to be help explain the Bible.
 
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brinny

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Fair enough. An atheist doesn't believe in God. An agnostic doesn't know whether or not there is a God. An "apathist" may or may not believe in God, but really doesn't care either way.

Atheist: I know there is no God.
Agnostic: I don't know whether or not there is a God.
Agnostic Apathist: I don't know, and I don't care.
Theist: I believe in God.
Apathistic Theist: I believe there is a God, but I don't care much about all that.

I think you're saying that to be lukewarm is to be an "apathist".

I agree. That's a good comparison, Vic. :)
 
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Vicomte13

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Now I am seeing pages of posts (several by the same poster) still not getting it. Now fair enough it would not be obvious to us, but people in ladocea would have understood what was being refered to. Now if someone claims to be a bible teacher and attempts to explain this verse but doesn't have the background understanding that will help explain it should they be teaching?

Do not be confident that what has been said by some religious sources about Laodicea's water supply is, in fact, archaeologically accurate.

Scripture doesn't tell us about Laodicea's water supply. Real archaeology does, and what it tells us is different from what has sprung up as a teaching.
 
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dms1972

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Do not be confident that what has been said by some religious sources about Laodicea's water supply is, in fact, archaeologically accurate.

Scripture doesn't tell us about Laodicea's water supply. Real archaeology does, and what it tells us is different from what has sprung up as a teaching.

The religious sources have refered to history and archelogy to get their info. It isn't from religious sources, but historical that we know that Hieropolis was popular because of its hot springs.

The idea that you can always understand the Bible, without doing further study is harmful, and I would say do not be confident that some posters saying that cold in this verse refers to unbelievers is accurate.
 
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BGW

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Lukewarm = not on fire.

I guess we all better examine ourselves on this one??

M-Bob
Absolutely agree on this comment. Most American churches are lukewarm. I call them the "county club" church. We do everything in the name of "Jesus", but entertainment is the priority, then a very light version of the gospel. We don't want to offend people in fear they will not come back. If we would only put the gospel message of Jesus first and focus on changing lives, then the truth will convict people. The church shouldn't exist to entertain people, but to convert them and strengthen them.

BGW
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Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".
Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.
Just think of your own experience. A hot drink is stimulating especially in cold weather and a cold drink is refreshing in hot weather but a lukewarm drink is unpleasant (unless you have temperature sensitive teeth or something) it is room temperature (close to body temperature) and most people prefer either hot or cold depending on the season. I do not think that there is a deeper significance in the choice of hot, cold, and lukewarm in John's words. It isn't about cold-towards-God and hot-towards-God it i about good and bad experience that people understand with regard to drinks.
 
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claninja

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Do not be confident that what has been said by some religious sources about Laodicea's water supply is, in fact, archaeologically accurate.

Scripture doesn't tell us about Laodicea's water supply. Real archaeology does, and what it tells us is different from what has sprung up as a teaching.

Your right, scripture doesn’t explicitly tell us about laodiceas water source. What scripture does say, is that Christ wanted the laodiceans and their works to be hot or cold, but not luke warm.


And what does the archeology actually show?
 
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Vicomte13

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Your right, scripture doesn’t explicitly tell us about laodiceas water source. What scripture does say, is that Christ wanted the laodiceans and their works to be hot or cold, but not luke warm.


And what does the archeology actually show?

It shows that the aqueduct system was the same there as in all of the other Roman cities of the Levant, that the water was not - as is claimed - brought directly in from the sources mentioned, but from a different direction, and also that the water of Laodicea was considered "medicinal".

It also shows that, among the well to do in mountainous Asia Minor, where mountain snow was available not all year, but during significant parts of it, that hospitality involved warm drink, or chilled drink. Room temperature (warm and fetid) drink was not a very hospitable thing to offer, if you could afford better.

So the hot/cold/lukewarm reference was very probably not some deep secret knowledge that only locals of Laodicea would understand, because of some mythical aspect of their Roman aqueduct system that was particularly different from that of the rest of the Roman cities around the region, but because of a cultural hospitality that people generically understood.

In the age before electrical refrigeration, to prepare a cold drink did require some expense and effort, but was done. And of course heating drinks always is done.

So, the bottom line: there's nothing wrong in this case with reading it exactly as written and understanding it as written, with references to modern hospitality: you had a visitor hot coffee or cold water, but you don't hand a visitor a can of Coke that sat out all day and is lukewarm. It's nasty and it's not showing any love or desire to refresh the weary traveler.

One CAN engage in discussion of the water system of Laodicea, that the particularly MIGHT have made the story particularly pungent for the people of that city. But when one does, one had best temper that discussion with the likelihood that, actually, the archaeology doesn't really support there having been anything particularly special about the public water system of Laodicea compared to any other Roman city around the area.

However, when one takes the additional step of drawing one's self up into the supposed "special knowledge" of additional outside study, to start telling people that they don't know what they are talking about and have no authority to comment on the passage unless they know this special additional knowledge - well, then they expose themselves to being called out on the fact that the "special knowledge" is very likely untrue from an archaeological standpoint, and that THEREFORE the claim to superior teaching authority on its account actually reveals and inferior degree of teaching authority, because the teacher of the false knowledge did not take the time and care to go research it WELL before making the lack of that knowledge a point of harsh criticism of those who do not possess it.

It isn't the fact that it's true or not - it's the assertion that if one doesn't know this truth one is ignorant and can't teach: THAT is the part that needed to be poked at. Really, the waters of Laodicea were not so noticeably icky and lukewarm that the ancients commented on it, and they weren't piped directly from the sources that some people who want to make too strong a religious point assert they were.

Had the religious point been made gently, it wouldn't have been necessary to flip over the table, but it was made strongly, aggressively - if you DON'T know this special knowledge about the waters of Laodicea, then you cannot speak on the Scripture!

That was the tone.

Trouble is, if you examine the actual archaeology, there wasn't anything special about the water supply of Laodicea, so the assertion that this absolutely refers to THAT - and that one cannot speak unless one knows that - is a teaching based on a fable. And the embarrassment of discovering that SHOULD sting enough that those who make the bold "YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO SPEAK!" arguments should learn from that to not do that again until they have made a THOROUGH (and skeptical) investigation into the supposed "special knowledge" that supposedly disqualifies everybody else from speaking or expressing an opinion.

Because, pretty much, if the "special knowledge" turns out to NOT BE TRUE, than the one who claimed the authority to speak WITH authority really has LESS authority than the rest, because he claimed stuff that isn't true as the BASIS for a teaching.

Christians like to assert authority over others. Most of it is baseless.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".

Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.
We have a theist or an anti theist or they all themselves atheists. The anti theist is just as much of a testimony for God as the theist. One way or the other we have to choose if we are for God or if we are going to follow the serpent. We can not be in the middle, there is no fence sitting allowed. Although science can be agnostic at times. Undecided people are in the valley of indecision. Joel3:14 "14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision."
 
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